The Big Change - Tradeskills

Ruth

Sena said:

Makarios said:

You can't give designs to people without the appropriate skill, due to that loophole. (Or should not be able to.)

That seems like a pretty serious nerf (to the functionality of designs in general, not the tradeskills specifically), if there's not more to it than that. It would mean having your own custom outfit designs requires tailoring (or a friend with tailoring keeping them for you, and hope they don't ever go dormant). Is that the case?

Alternativelyyyyyy, we can set up trade clan 'cartels'? >.>

Synbios

Ruth said:

Alternativelyyyyyy, we can set up trade clan 'cartels'? >.>

@Ruth: You mean like in Lusternia?

Sarapis

Sena said:

Makarios said:

You can't give designs to people without the appropriate skill, due to that loophole. (Or should not be able to.)

That seems like a pretty serious nerf (to the functionality of designs in general, not the tradeskills specifically), if there's not more to it than that. It would mean having your own custom outfit designs requires tailoring (or a friend with tailoring keeping them for you, and hope they don't ever go dormant). Is that the case?

That is the case, yep. Tailoring is fully in the hands of tailors going forward.

Sarapis

Kresslack said:

@Tecton or @Sarapis (if he's not passed out drunker than Ironbeard by now): In regards to forging, what determines which descriptor is going to be listed on the final product? The first descriptor I list seems to always come second on the forged item. Is there a way to set which comes first?

There's some logic behind the scenes based on how we categorize them, assuming it's not bugged. For instance, a regionally-based descriptor (like Ashtani or Theran) will always come second, because "a Theran gleaming longsword" sounds awkward to us vs "a gleaming Theran longsword". If that behind the scenes logic doesn't come into play, then it should just use whatever order you choose. Maybe if you give me specific examples it would help me see if there's a bug or not.

Sarapis

Shirszae said:

Is there any easy way to see how you have progressed in a particular smithing rank?

Adding this in.

Riashain

@Tecton‌ @Sarapis‌

Loki's Tear... how does it work with Toxicology now?

Sarapis

Kei said:

So the examined descriptions of the new forged items is a little lacking, in my opinion. I actually liked the old descriptions, at least on most of them. Don't get me wrong, I like the change, but the examined is just lacklustre: "This is a sleek, balanced flail." vs. "This flail has a fairly short wooden handle, with a leather loop at the end. Three chains are attached to the other end, each leading to separate fist-sized iron ball, dotted with evil-looking spikes." for example.

So on that note...Are there any plans to introduce more detailed descriptions again?

If yes, can we submit descriptions for the new descriptors? Either as parts (e.g. a sentence for "sleek flail" that would link up with a sentence for "balanced flail", along with a base sentence for "flail" itself) or whole items (one for sleek, balanced flail, one for sleek, graceful flail, etc.), however would be easier on the code, to spice up the new forged items a bit?

I just want pretty things   

The examine descriptions are definitely lacklustre, but they may just be a casualty of necessity.

Not much we can do there in terms of individual descriptions. There are hundreds of descriptors, and it's not worth doing the thousands of descriptions it would take to write descriptions for each of the combinations. It would also pretty much guarantee we'd never add new ones, as each new one added would then require hundreds of descriptions, and each additional one of course requires one more than the last. 

As Mak said, attaching longer descriptions to each descriptor isn't something we were able to make work. The descriptions would inevitably be very awkward, and because we wouldn't want them contradicting themselves or using other adjectives that are also descriptors, there isn't much you CAN say about them. Everything would have to be of the same form, and fit in a template like:

"This steel longsword is <blah> and <blah>." 

I don't think that's likely to be really any better than now, but with additional work. Say you had one that was vermillion and balanced. What would you insert in there that would work across all armours/weapons that the descriptor might be attached to, will work with any other descriptor, and doesn't use other adjectives that we could use as descriptors, and that fits in that sentence format?

I suspect if you sit down and start trying lots of combinations you'll see the problems we ran into when trying to figure it out, though we gave up pretty quickly I'll admit as it didn't really seem worth it given that you'd still end up with lacklustre descriptions. 

It's a downside of the new system, but possibly an inevitable one that, I believe, is a price worth paying for the advantages of new forging.

Sarapis

Silas said:

Why was it decided to combine the elixirs/tonics from plants and minerals? It doesn't make a lot of sense, flavour-wise, to brew a health elixir from minerals, and if you're going to have gathering and synthesising, it doesn't seem like much of a stretch to add brewing and distilling as separate skills.

Because it was an opportunity to partially rectify the mistake of introducing two sets of cures into the game. 

Xith

Sarapis said:

Silas said:

Why was it decided to combine the elixirs/tonics from plants and minerals? It doesn't make a lot of sense, flavour-wise, to brew a health elixir from minerals, and if you're going to have gathering and synthesising, it doesn't seem like much of a stretch to add brewing and distilling as separate skills.

Because it was an opportunity to partially rectify the mistake of introducing two sets of cures into the game. 

Plus command sip speed and command apply salve and such are somewhat important in certain class strategies. If they had haste tonic your command would be wrong. 

Arador

It makes sense for salves and elixirs. This is a health elixir. Whether it was made from plants or minerals does not matter. It is health, it heals health. Like cough syrup. No matter the ingredients, it's cough syrup. For liquids, the name had always been descriptive of the effect. For minerals and herbs, it has been the name of the ingredient. 

Tecton

Riashain said:

@Tecton‌ @Sarapis‌

Loki's Tear... how does it work with Toxicology now?

It'll give you 50% more venom per batch.

Riashain

Tecton said:

Riashain said:

@Tecton‌ @Sarapis‌

Loki's Tear... how does it work with Toxicology now?

It'll give you 50% more venom per batch.

I've been gone a while, which probably accounts for why I'm not quite understanding that.

Depending on the skill level of the practitioner, and the container that the
toxin is being poured into, a "batch" of a remedy is worth a differing amount
of sips:

                non-trans    trans        total
                practitioner practitioner sips max

Regular vial      40           50         200
Artefact vial     80          120         240

To refill a vial:

Boiling:   FILL <vial> FROM <pot> [# times]
Hydrating: DECANT <alembic> INTO <vial> [# times]

If I understand correctly, a single batch (non-Tear) from a trans practitioner is either 50 sips or 120 sips depending on target vial? With a Tear that would then change to 75 and 180 per batch? Or am I wildly off course? @Tecton‌ Either way, thanks for the quick response.

Silas

@Sarapis any chance of making the gloves of extraction work for gathering as well as the gloves of harvesting? Hardly seems fair that you get a bonus to two skills from one artie if you pick harvesting, but just get the shaft if you pick synthesis.

Fitz

Here's a pastebin of all the descriptors, if anyone hasn't posted it yet.

http://pastebin.com/YGX22bP5

Tecton

Silas said:

@Sarapis any chance of making the gloves of extraction work for gathering as well as the gloves of harvesting? Hardly seems fair that you get a bonus to two skills from one artie if you pick harvesting, but just get the shaft if you pick synthesis.

Agreed, we'll take a look at this in the coming days!

Kresslack

Sarapis said:

Kresslack said:

@Tecton or @Sarapis (if he's not passed out drunker than Ironbeard by now): In regards to forging, what determines which descriptor is going to be listed on the final product? The first descriptor I list seems to always come second on the forged item. Is there a way to set which comes first?

There's some logic behind the scenes based on how we categorize them, assuming it's not bugged. For instance, a regionally-based descriptor (like Ashtani or Theran) will always come second, because "a Theran gleaming longsword" sounds awkward to us vs "a gleaming Theran longsword". If that behind the scenes logic doesn't come into play, then it should just use whatever order you choose. Maybe if you give me specific examples it would help me see if there's a bug or not.

I did some generic ones from the Apprentice Rank (#SithLife) when starting out, and I wanna say I did something like 'forge for grooved steel bastard sword' and it turned it to 'a steel, grooved bastard sword'. I'll do some more testing tonight and confirm as the details are a little fuzzy.

Bluef

Sarapis said:

Sena said:

Makarios said:

You can't give designs to people without the appropriate skill, due to that loophole. (Or should not be able to.)

That seems like a pretty serious nerf (to the functionality of designs in general, not the tradeskills specifically), if there's not more to it than that. It would mean having your own custom outfit designs requires tailoring (or a friend with tailoring keeping them for you, and hope they don't ever go dormant). Is that the case?

That is the case, yep. Tailoring is fully in the hands of tailors going forward.

My concern is that no one will be requesting custom clothing anymore. Why? Because they can't purchase the design and thus make it solely unique to their character.

For example, I have no desire to own or maintain (which is costly) any patterns as a tailor or jeweler that aren't related to my character or my Order - so I'll end up giving these to public, which means any crafter anywhere can then make the item. Thus totally taking the uniqueness of having "a tattered crimson cloak" that was unique and related to a specific character's roleplay and making it available to everyone...simply because I can't give a non-tailor a design that he or she can set a passcode for any tailor of his choice to use down the road. 

The same goes for all sorts of things, including engagement and wedding bands, which are a big custom order items. These things are made special and unique by the fact that they were custom designed for a specific person. Putting the burden on the crafter to maintain that singularness seems off because there isn't an easy way to charge for that beyond estimating lifetime preservation costs (which would make the ring far too costly for anyone to ever purchase anyway).

Might it be possible to consider a small artefact that makes it possible for non-crafters to own designs again? Otherwise, it may be that the public NDS becomes terribly swollen with designs and a lot of unique items created for roleplay reasons lose their distinctiveness.

Valaria

@Makarios‌

i tried to create a bag of stasis, it say that i don't have the require comms for it. i think AB for stasis is wrong on the comms required for it...

Amarillys

Bluef said:

Putting the burden on the crafter to maintain that singularness seems off because there isn't an easy way to charge for that beyond estimating lifetime preservation costs (which would make the ring far too costly for anyone to ever purchase anyway).

Actually, it is really easy to estimate the lifetime preservation costs. It's two credits. If you assume a Mayan crown costs fifty credits and you need two for a folder which holds fifty designs, the lifetime preservation cost for someone is two credits. Set your price for how much it costs someone for a custom order, if they want it just for themselves for the lifespan of the item, they pay the pick up fee, and if they want it to last forever, they pay you two credits. You can either spend these credits as you want to or save up commission credits and buy a folder, but either way you would basically say 'pay me two credits and I'll keep this around forevermore.' Alternatively, they could have you transfer it to someone of their choice at no charge, but you may consider a charge for that as well since it is your design. Maybe one credit.

Bluef

Amarillys said:

Bluef said:

Putting the burden on the crafter to maintain that singularness seems off because there isn't an easy way to charge for that beyond estimating lifetime preservation costs (which would make the ring far too costly for anyone to ever purchase anyway).

Actually, it is really easy to estimate the lifetime preservation costs. It's two credits. If you assume a Mayan crown costs fifty credits and you need two for a folder which holds fifty designs, the lifetime preservation cost for someone is two credits. Set your price for how much it costs someone for a custom order, if they want it just for themselves for the lifespan of the item, they pay the pick up fee, and if they want it to last forever, they pay you two credits. You can either spend these credits as you want to or save up commission credits and buy a folder, but either way you would basically say 'pay me two credits and I'll keep this around forevermore.' Alternatively, they could have you transfer it to someone of their choice at no charge, but you may consider a charge for that as well since it is your design. Maybe one credit.

That's not a bad idea, but again more work on the tailor's part. It also means that people want to only work with tailors who have a reputation of being very active in the realms so they can keep getting their designs re-made though, which isn't too bad. 

Here's my main issue with it: A Crafter's Folder costs 100 credits, if you can find someone willing to sell you 2 Mayan Crowns for that amount. But the investment doesn't make sense to me because a) I have no interest preserving a bunch of designs that have nothing to do with Bluef b) I would have to create 50 designs for a person/people to justify the outlay in credits.

With everything that is on the NDS, and everything that is going to be now that this additional investment is required, it is less unlikely that oodles of people are going to be paying 2 credits + 20k for a tailored item (a total of something like (32k if I'm not mistaken). Therefore, the investment is a risky one. You might never fill up a folder set aside for only customer works.

Still a decent strategy though. Thanks @Amarillys‌! 

Amarillys

Bluef said:

Amarillys said:

Bluef said:

Putting the burden on the crafter to maintain that singularness seems off because there isn't an easy way to charge for that beyond estimating lifetime preservation costs (which would make the ring far too costly for anyone to ever purchase anyway).

Actually, it is really easy to estimate the lifetime preservation costs. It's two credits. If you assume a Mayan crown costs fifty credits and you need two for a folder which holds fifty designs, the lifetime preservation cost for someone is two credits. Set your price for how much it costs someone for a custom order, if they want it just for themselves for the lifespan of the item, they pay the pick up fee, and if they want it to last forever, they pay you two credits. You can either spend these credits as you want to or save up commission credits and buy a folder, but either way you would basically say 'pay me two credits and I'll keep this around forevermore.' Alternatively, they could have you transfer it to someone of their choice at no charge, but you may consider a charge for that as well since it is your design. Maybe one credit.

That's not a bad idea, but again more work on the tailor's part. It also means that people want to only work with tailors who have a reputation of being very active in the realms so they can keep getting their designs re-made though, which isn't too bad. 

Here's my main issue with it: A Crafter's Folder costs 100 credits, if you can find someone willing to sell you 2 Mayan Crowns for that amount. But the investment doesn't make sense to me because a) I have no interest preserving a bunch of designs that have nothing to do with Bluef b) I would have to create 50 designs for a person/people to justify the outlay in credits.

With everything that is on the NDS, and everything that is going to be now that this additional investment is required, it is less unlikely that oodles of people are going to be paying 2 credits + 20k for a tailored item (a total of something like (32k if I'm not mistaken). Therefore, the investment is a risky one. You might never fill up a folder set aside for only customer works.

Still a decent strategy though. Thanks @Amarillys‌! 

And people may not be willing to pay for it but all that means is they cannot expect that it will be for them only and forever till the end of time. If you want something just for you, you have to pay for something just for you and it costs the jewellery/tailor/cook a decent amount to make that happen so it costs you a decent amount to make that happen. 32k for your own personal outfit till the end of time (assuming you pick a good tailor who is active but that's on you as much as anything) is a hell of a lot cheaper than the fifty credits to customize an item, much less the additional 50 credits to make it permanent. And no, you may never fill up a customer's only folder, but that's where you use your own folder and just go 'eh, they paid for this slot'.

Addama

Does anybody know what Augment does yet? 

Antonius

Nothing, technically it no longer exists as a usable ability.

Addama

Antonius said:

Nothing, technically it no longer exists as a usable ability.

Abilities in Augmentation:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Firelash             A lash of burning fire.
Hearing              Hear while otherwise deaf.
Cold                 Enchant rings with the power to resist cold.
Waterwalk            Enchant shoes with the power to walk on water.
Electric             Enchant rings with electric resistance.
Firewall             Create a wall of fire.
Augment              Increase the power of weapons and armour.
Meteor               Turn arrows into flaming meteors.
Magic                Enchant rings with magic resistance.
Icewall              Create a blocking wall of ice.
Fire                 Enchant rings with fire resistance.
Scabbard             Enchant a scabbard of stasis.
Imbue                Imbue scrolls with transferrable enchantments.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So it's there, but does nothing? 

Antonius

It's not supposed to be there - I'm sure Tecton said it had been removed when we brought it up on the ACC clan last night. BUG it, I guess.

Yae

Can we make the scrolls we enchant on show the enchantment in its short description like 'a thick scroll of vellum imbued with waterwalk'?

You are holding:
      scroll81779         a thick scroll of vellum
      scroll106925        a thick scroll of vellum
      scroll116819        a thick scroll of vellum
      scroll95736         a thick scroll of vellum

That way we don't have to do the 'guess which enchantment this one has!' game.
(It was the fourth one, by the way.)

Antonius

Any chance TRADEWHO could be modified to include fellow city and House members, even if they have a gem of cloaking? Or add a TRADEWHO CITY/HOUSE version that does that?

Herose

Can anyone use the scrolls enchanted through the IMBUE skill in Augmentation?

Valaria

i noticed that inkmilling ranked first follow the remedies(at the moment it didn't account the gemmed adventurers..)

Krypton

@Tectonsaid:

Alchemist can't take herbalism or concoctions, forestals can't take synthesis/transmutation, and the alch/forestal status of your city also affects which of the gathering/curative skills are available.

Tecton said:

Yeah, I do think we'll need a better system to handle that, I think we'll work on that some more this week and come up with a better solution, perhaps we just scrap the hardcoded restrictions and just have them enforced in the RP arena.

ETA: I'll just disclaim that this is a possibility, not the final decision!

So is this what was decided? Lots of citied people have picked up Harvesting. Anyone in Eleusis pick up Synthesis? Ha.