Classleads September 2014

Cynlael

Someone needs to hardout endorse Mizik classleads.

Talysin

Someone needs to shame Mizik into not submitting anymore class leads.

I'm going to submit one, brb.

Talysin

Report #129

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Submitted by: Talysin Status : Submitted

Skill : Puppetry Ability : Obliterate

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Problem:

Everyone else seems to be asking for OP stuff, so here's my contribution: bring

back puppet obliterate.

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Solution #1:

Require 50 fashions and a lit firecracker. Performing PUPPET OBLITERATE will

kill the puppets namesake from anywhere in the area.

Solution #2:

Make puppet obliterate similar to enlighten, with certain afflictions (e.g.,

paralysis, bound, and 2-3 physician affs) being prepped on the victim before

obliterate can be performed.

Solution #3:

Talysin

Notice how it's area wide, so it's balanced.

Klendathu

Bukariin said:

Mizik said:

Report #129

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Submitted by: Dajio          Status      : Submitted

Skill       : Subterfuge     Ability     : Snipe

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Solution #3:

Sniping inflicts more than 1 venom per shot, including the increased accuracy and silent assailant 

addon.

Wow

Double delph arrows... like someone with a Lupines needs that too

Darklyre

Talysin said:

Report #129

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Submitted by: Talysin Status : Submitted

Skill : Puppetry Ability : Obliterate

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Problem:

Everyone else seems to be asking for OP stuff, so here's my contribution: bring

back puppet obliterate.

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Solution #1:

Require 50 fashions and a lit firecracker. Performing PUPPET OBLITERATE will

kill the puppets namesake from anywhere in the area.

Solution #2:

Make puppet obliterate similar to enlighten, with certain afflictions (e.g.,

paralysis, bound, and 2-3 physician affs) being prepped on the victim before

obliterate can be performed.

Solution #3:

Screw it, just give vodun/puppetry users Besot again, and make drunkenness an affliction curable only by vomiting.

Bukariin

Klendathu said:

Double delph arrows... like someone with a Lupines needs that too

Remember, this was a Dajio classlead.

Dajio.

Synbios

I know that there are a lot of blademaster bashing classleads submitted, but might as well show mine for public critiquemockery:

Report #101

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Submitted by: Synbios        Status      : Submitted

Skill       : TwoArts        Ability     : New

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Problem:

With the recent changes to bashing, blademasters have gone from being top-tier bashers to close to pretty much bottom of the barrel - except while in Arash...which is pretty much suicide when attempting to bash. And while the intent to balance bring bashing damage in line with other classes is sound logic, there is the feeling that blademaster bashing damage has been 'over-nerfed' unreasonably.

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Solution #1:

Repurpose multislash so that it does damage to denizens - each attack in the multislash is weaker than an individual drawslash, but taken together, total damage would be higher than it. Alternatively, Allow blademasters to execute an off-hand scabbard strike that can be done while off balance from drawslash.

Solution #2:

Alternatively, while this may also affect pvp, allow blademasters to infuse using mana as an alternative to shin([MANA]INFUSE FIRE/ICE/LIGHTNING/VOID), making it more damaging against denizens. Alternatively, allow weak shin gain in some other fashion for bashing so that infusing and health transmute(as a panic button) is possible. Note solution 3 for tradeoff.

Solution #3:

In conjunction with the above two suggestion, and as also been covered by other classleaders, please also consider balancing stance bonuses with Sanya as the baseline. Nobody in their right mind would even consider bashing with Arash unless they have a masochistic streak. Also, adjusting Mir's damage reduction values would be fine as long as bashing offense is buffed in exchange. Mizik's classlead 114 would be an excellent reference point.

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Eld

Synbios said:

I know that there are a lot of blademaster bashing classleads submitted, but might as well show mine for public critiquemockery:

Report #101

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Submitted by: Synbios        Status      : Submitted

Skill       : TwoArts        Ability     : New

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Problem:

With the recent changes to bashing, blademasters have gone from being top-tier bashers to close to pretty much bottom of the barrel - except while in Arash...which is pretty much suicide when attempting to bash. And while the intent to balance bring bashing damage in line with other classes is sound logic, there is the feeling that blademaster bashing damage has been 'over-nerfed' unreasonably.

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Solution #1:

Repurpose multislash so that it does damage to denizens - each attack in the multislash is weaker than an individual drawslash, but taken together, total damage would be higher than it. Alternatively, Allow blademasters to execute an off-hand scabbard strike that can be done while off balance from drawslash.

Solution #2:

Alternatively, while this may also affect pvp, allow blademasters to infuse using mana as an alternative to shin([MANA]INFUSE FIRE/ICE/LIGHTNING/VOID), making it more damaging against denizens. Alternatively, allow weak shin gain in some other fashion for bashing so that infusing and health transmute(as a panic button) is possible. Note solution 3 for tradeoff.

Solution #3:

In conjunction with the above two suggestion, and as also been covered by other classleaders, please also consider balancing stance bonuses with Sanya as the baseline. Nobody in their right mind would even consider bashing with Arash unless they have a masochistic streak. Also, adjusting Mir's damage reduction values would be fine as long as bashing offense is buffed in exchange. Mizik's classlead 114 would be an excellent reference point.

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Infusing won't help with bashing damage output unless denizens have resistances to different damage types (since infusing doesn't change the damage of the attack, just damage type), which I don't think they do. I could be wrong, but I'd be surprised if anything that complex were in place in the PvE system, especially since it wouldn't rarely, if ever, have any noticeable effect.

With solution 3, do you mean change the size of bonus/malus each stance confers relative to Sanya? And with the last sentence there (about Mir), do you mean buffing bashing offense in general, or specifically in Mir relative to the other stances? Bashing damage should be increased independently of whether or not Mir gets nerfed, IMO, and I don't think making Mir stronger offensively in exchange for a defensive nerf would be strictly necessary (not that I'd argue, of course).

Seems like the simplest thing would be to just adjust base drawslash damage upward to bring DPS in Sanya up to where Arash DPS is currently, and leave the stance/band bonuses about where they are. That way you get the balancing effect that the bashing changes were aiming for in the neutral stance, with the option to trade some defense for offense and vice versa.

Cynlael

Problem:
Alchemists have an instant kill, Aurify, that requires a target be below 60% health and mana to kill.
  They do not currently have a way of directly attacking mana outside of a melancholic inundate,
which has a long affliction-based setup.

Wut. Why do people want buffs to Alchemist offence?  

Kenway

Report #212

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Submitted by: Aelios         Status      : Submitted

Skill       : Chivalry       Ability     : Disembowel

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Problem:

Disembowel as a finisher has become an incredibly weak tool with the advent of modern client-side 

curing systems. Considering Knight is virtually the slowest of all prep classes in Achaea with no 

active ability around parry (unlike every other limb prep class), and the time invested on prep work 

required to execute a single attempt, Knights have virtually one shot at succeeding the Disembowel - 

and succeeding often relies on the added damage modifier from Torso breaks to pull off. With the 

advent of several modern curing systems, the hidden affliction of a torso break is quite commonly 

auto-repaired by client side scripting done that most mid tier fighters possess. This makes the 

Disembowel quite weak compared to other finishing methods for the simple fact that it is commonly 

automated against (automatic torso curing), and can be tumbled out of (also completely ignoring 

torso damage). These factors equate to a change in the dynamic of Knight combat, making it 

relatively impossible on many Achaean combatants, even when other salve balances are used (armbreaks 

before torso, etc).

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Solution #1:

Increase basic Disembowel damage, giving more of a chance for the Knight to actually finish the 

fight

Solution #2:

Re-work how Disembowel damage modifiers work, making the modifier effect active the moment the 

target is impaled - not when the actual Disembowel occurs.

Solution #3:

Let tumble respect torso damage. There's no logical reason what so ever that an impaled target 

should receive less damage under any condition if a Disembowel is successfully achieved.

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*Kisses @Aelios*
1 and 2 for sure would be great.
3 is nice but kinda takes away the tumble option all together for people with lower health and they'll already be struggling against a knight enough without that.

Bukariin

What do you mean by "lower" health?  Like 4k, or 4.5k?

Kenway

Bukariin said:

What do you mean by "lower" health?  Like 4k, or 4.5k?

Dex-spec serpent for instance? Seen plenty of 80+s with sub 4k health. Hell, I have 3600 without jera/weathering/bracelets.

Siduri

Kenway said:

Bukariin said:

What do you mean by "lower" health?  Like 4k, or 4.5k?

Dex-spec serpent for instance? Seen plenty of 80+s with sub 4k health. Hell, I have 3600 without jera/weathering/bracelets.

I'm 85, and about 3.5k hp.

Kaden

Kenway said:

*Kisses @Aelios*
1 and 2 for sure would be great.
3 is nice but kinda takes away the tumble option all together for people with lower health and they'll already be struggling against a knight enough without that.

As one of those people with lower health...what "tumble option?" :P

Atalkez

I'd like to see damage scaled back on knights but a true instakill given in return.

Bukariin

If you have 4k or less health any Monk can kill you by prepping legs, forcing tree, enfeeble, sweep/break legs, double BBT.

But this isn't a rebalancing consideration because there's a lot of things that can happen between the forced tree (like if the target is already off tree balance) and the first BBT that would totally trash even the simplest kill combo in the game.  Buy time to heal from enfeeble, tree one leg break, other afflictions that don't require leg balance, etc.  Some builds can tank an enfeeble/double BBT and others can afflict their way out of it.  Breaking torso first can increase the odds of an enfeeble/double BBT kill, but like it's been said before, a lot of systems can react to a torso break such that it's merely as effective as breaking an arm to delay restore balance.

So the idea is that people with low health have that because they're capable of reacting to kill combos in such a way that they can evade otherwise certain death, and people with high health have that because, uh, they don't want to or something. 

So I agree with @Atalkez that knights deserve a true insta-kill, and maybe that's something we'll see when Forging gets separated from knight classes.  Low health shouldn't necessarily be a balancing consideration because classes that have low health can 1) react to and prevent damage-related kills and 2) gain a tangible offensive benefit by neglecting CON.  Obviously if there were a class that landed unartied 1400 damage hits every 2 seconds ignoring armor without prep, we'd be worried about low HP builds, but for the moment disembowel doesn't really threaten even those because they can afflict their way out of it.

Talysin

Only knights without an instakill are rune wardens, right?

Kenway

Talysin said:

Only knights without an instakill are rune wardens, right?

Yes, though Damnation isn't exactly something I'd go for. I think DSB is probably more reliable. Especially with the extra strength and piety making arm bypasses more viable. Vivisect is pretty boss and frankly insane when combined with DSB since you can set up for both in one break chain, cure the vivisect properly and you're DSB'd.

Caladbolg

Kenway said:

Talysin said:

Only knights without an instakill are rune wardens, right?

Yes, though Damnation isn't exactly something I'd go for. I think DSB is probably more reliable. Especially with the extra strength and piety making arm bypasses more viable. Vivisect is pretty boss and frankly insane when combined with DSB since you can set up for both in one break chain, cure the vivisect properly and you're DSB'd.

Damnation is more viable than Dsb, Cleave is more viable than both (assuming the person knows what a wall is and has tumble)

Damnations strong point is the fact that no one has ever seen it and has no idea how it's even used let alone expect/counter it.

Dsb's strong point is that if you time out when the wall will melt and go to dsb you have a high chance of killing them on the lunge after tumble (I think the best strong point of dsb is if you break one leg and impale they usually tumble)

Cleave just murders people,children,small animals,big animals,LARGER ANIMALS.

Other wise I'd just like to note I have never liked any Blademaster classlead i've ever seen. (besides mine, because we needed a better dismount than annihilation when I made mine*)
I think they are typically silly and if you were playing the class the way you should be you wouldn't even need to bring those things up (Except some of them that are just trying to push Blademaster into the unstopable killing machine type) Only thing Blademaster needs is some type of LoS. and maybe hiding.

and for my classlead idea, Im thinking runelore could use a hinder removing rune (possibly tick but other wise one use to clear) That will remove gravehands,Piety,Bannana's,Icy floors, ect ect.
The reason being is Runelore is available to all cities. and every city but targ has two classes that can use this ability. Since these abilities are on the lines of needed and currently we have Bard to remove ghands and necromancy to remove piety .. We don't have alot of bards that play, and when the big stuff goes down we can't always count on that one guy who went bard for the good of the city to be online. However runelorists are easy to come by and personally I think this would improve group combat alot.

(For the record I don't think it should touch tentacles or the homunculus one.)

Also as far as disembowel goes, I think instead of adding torso damage to the tumble (people can just prio torso and tank dsb all day anyways) Speeding up knight impale would do wonders. It's pretty bad you have to break an arm and a torso and two legs with out a real parry bypass just to attempt an ability that doesn't even do 100% max hp until around 22 strength ( Which might I add A 15 strength race spec + 1 trait = 16 + fury = 18 + Devo strength (highest of every knight strength wise) = 20.) So unless you already rocking 800 or more credit strength gauntlets .. Your breaking 3 limbs and a torso to do high amounts of damage (unless your rapiers are faster than.. I think 235 average speed then you can just do legbreaks) with out even a guaranteed kill if they lag out and don't tumble.
I think speeding up impale maybe a second faster would do a few wonders.

Aelios

Caladbolg said:

Kenway said:

Talysin said:

Only knights without an instakill are rune wardens, right?

Yes, though Damnation isn't exactly something I'd go for. I think DSB is probably more reliable. Especially with the extra strength and piety making arm bypasses more viable. Vivisect is pretty boss and frankly insane when combined with DSB since you can set up for both in one break chain, cure the vivisect properly and you're DSB'd.

Damnation is more viable than Dsb, Cleave is more viable than both (assuming the person knows what a wall is and has tumble)

Damnations strong point is the fact that no one has ever seen it and has no idea how it's even used let alone expect/counter it.

Dsb's strong point is that if you time out when the wall will melt and go to dsb you have a high chance of killing them on the lunge after tumble (I think the best strong point of dsb is if you break one leg and impale they usually tumble)

Cleave just murders people,children,small animals,big animals,LARGER ANIMALS.

Other wise I'd just like to note I have never liked any Blademaster classlead i've ever seen. (besides mine, because we needed a better dismount than annihilation when I made mine*)
I think they are typically silly and if you were playing the class the way you should be you wouldn't even need to bring those things up (Except some of them that are just trying to push Blademaster into the unstopable killing machine type) Only thing Blademaster needs is some type of LoS. and maybe hiding.

and for my classlead idea, Im thinking runelore could use a hinder removing rune (possibly tick but other wise one use to clear) That will remove gravehands,Piety,Bannana's,Icy floors, ect ect.
The reason being is Runelore is available to all cities. and every city but targ has two classes that can use this ability. Since these abilities are on the lines of needed and currently we have Bard to remove ghands and necromancy to remove piety .. We don't have alot of bards that play, and when the big stuff goes down we can't always count on that one guy who went bard for the good of the city to be online. However runelorists are easy to come by and personally I think this would improve group combat alot.

(For the record I don't think it should touch tentacles or the homunculus one.)

Also as far as disembowel goes, I think instead of adding torso damage to the tumble (people can just prio torso and tank dsb all day anyways) Speeding up knight impale would do wonders. It's pretty bad you have to break an arm and a torso and two legs with out a real parry bypass just to attempt an ability that doesn't even do 100% max hp until around 22 strength ( Which might I add A 15 strength race spec + 1 trait = 16 + fury = 18 + Devo strength (highest of every knight strength wise) = 20.) So unless you already rocking 800 or more credit strength gauntlets .. Your breaking 3 limbs and a torso to do high amounts of damage (unless your rapiers are faster than.. I think 235 average speed then you can just do legbreaks) with out even a guaranteed kill if they lag out and don't tumble.
I think speeding up impale maybe a second faster would do a few wonders.

I've highlighted the key points of your statement I agree with, and I'd like to touch on a few things.

First, Cleave is 100% useless against any class that can paralyze, web, transfix, prone, or move a room in less than 10 seconds. It's the same thing as devour, and is broadly never expected - so many don't pay attention. Their lack of knowledge doesn't equate to the ability being strong per say, just that they are ill-equipped to defend against it. 

Disembowel, as it stands currently, is broken. Your boldened / underlined point is 100% spot on. Knight has zero way past parry, outside of a few speed knight / gimmick setups that involve ground runes and feigning retreat OR speed knighting out a few epteth/epseth stacks on an arm break. 

Monk has RNK, paralyzing the limb and adding 2 strikes every ~3 seconds to a limb that often requires 6 or 7 to be prepped.

BM has voidfist, striking for paralysis.

Dragon has enmesh, giving 1 or 2 hits to a limb that requires 4 to break.

Knight has... nothing. And requires (often enough) 14+ hits on a limb to break it. (7 DSL's)

That means that effectively, a monk (in one combo) can do enough limb damage that they afflict Paralysis and DSL twice every 2.7 seconds (equivalent limb damage).


Just worth noting.


If Impale was sped up, I'd be in heaven. 

Cooper

Plenty of people have seen damnation. I used it very frequently when I was a Paladin.

Ernam

Re: @Aelios - Upping DSB damage is silly, it's already pretty ridiculous.  What needs to be looked at is stacked damage mitigation, which is what actually screws runies over.  Monks have the same problem.  (BBT damage is fine, it's the 50+% blunt reduction that makes it problematic).  I also don't think your suggestion to make tumbling out of DSB do DSB damage is a good fix either, since impale is 100% unavoidable.  There would simply be no counter to it?  I think that's a bit silly.  I totally understand the problem with DSB/impale/tumble, having played runewarden extensively several times, but I don't think any of your fixes would make things any better (solution 1/2 don't fix it, and 3 is very much broken).

Also, since knight changes are allegedly coming soon, I personally wouldn't invest too much time and effort into trying to find a way to fix it.

Re: Damnation -  Damnation is freaking awesome, and is nowhere near as hard to pull off as people often say it is.  97% of the time people don't know what's going on, or cure poorly, but it's still possible against the 3% who do, if you're good enough.  It's a great ability.

I think the real goal (as has already been said) should be such an ability/kill move for Runewarden.  This leaves the threat of DSB on the table, while also being able to approach/prepare other kill methods, forcing the recipient to make conciencious, dynamic combat decisions (the trademark of the last 2-3 years of "major" classlead changes [see: darkshade, bard, hypochondria, etc])

Ernam

IMO Runie has always been a "stack damage until they die" class.  The Runeblade changes and so on haven't really convinced me otherwise.  Like magi, I think if "aesthetic" kills are what you're after, you're simply playing the wrong class.

Do I think it's stupid that some classes simply cannot kill certain others (looking at you, apostate/infernal/dragon)?  Yes, absolutely.  However, when you're playing a class that is designed from the ground up to be based purely on damage output, you have to accept that some people are better at absorbing damage than others.

If some classes are simply able to ignore damage (as is currently the case) then that isn't really a problem with Runewarden, Monk, or Magi, it's a problem with the class defenses being too strong.

Bukariin

Ernam said:

impale is 100% unavoidable

That's weird, I avoid it 100% of the time that I'm not prone.  Should I bug it?

(I know what you meant and I agree with almost everything else, but impale is quite difficult to land and even harder to stick for a DSB considering knights don't have an avenue to mitigate parry)

Aelios

Ernam said:

Re: @Aelios - Upping DSB damage is silly, it's already pretty ridiculous.  What needs to be looked at is stacked damage mitigation, which is what actually screws runies over.  Monks have the same problem.  (BBT damage is fine, it's the 50+% blunt reduction that makes it problematic).  I also don't think your suggestion to make tumbling out of DSB do DSB damage is a good fix either, since impale is 100% unavoidable.  

...What in the I can't even...

I'll cut it down simple, and dissect this entirely for you.

Impale is a 3.5 second balance, with writhe time being far less unless BOTH legs are broken and you've got 235+ speed rapiers and hit it fast. Often enough, you need to enter the Disembowel with an arm break to kill the salve balance if you're not a speed Knight, and your target can simply walk out of the room if that's the case.

Worried that both broken legs and being impaled will kill you? Well no shit, that's the setup for the kill. That's how EVERY limb prep class works. 

But to help you out, if you pre-apply restoration to legs, you'll cure faster than I can ever possibly hope to recover balance after an impale, curing a broken leg and writhing off my impale with ease long before I can even think of having a chance to disembowel.



There would simply be no counter to it?  I think that's a bit silly.

See above.

I totally understand the problem with DSB/impale/tumble, having played runewarden extensively several times, but I don't think any of your fixes would make things any better (solution 1/2 don't fix it, and 3 is very much broken).

How would tumble respecting torso damage be broken? If you tumble anywhere near my impale, you'll dodge it 100% of the time, every time, negating ANY damage to your torso. Yes, you counter it. Woo, but what avenue do I have to prevent that? Nothing. Not a thing. Class balance is about balancing all classes, not about gimping one class to make it easier for you to survive.

Also, since knight changes are allegedly coming soon, I personally wouldn't invest too much time and effort into trying to find a way to fix it.

Because we should just ignore everything broken until   Ships  Knight changes get here, right?

Re: Damnation -  Damnation is freaking awesome, and is nowhere near as hard to pull off as people often say it is.  97% of the time people don't know what's going on, or cure poorly, but it's still possible against the 3% who do, if you're good enough.  It's a great ability.

I think the real goal (as has already been said) should be such an ability/kill move for Runewarden.  This leaves the threat of DSB on the table, while also being able to approach/prepare other kill methods, forcing the recipient to make conciencious, dynamic combat decisions (the trademark of the last 2-3 years of "major" classlead changes [see: darkshade, bard, hypochondria, etc])

I have boldened the proper edit / replies to your post @Ernam. 

Edit : And I've even italicized them to make it easier to read.

Kenway

Ernam said:

Re: @Aelios - Upping DSB damage is silly, it's already pretty ridiculous.  What needs to be looked at is stacked damage mitigation, which is what actually screws runies over.  Monks have the same problem.  (BBT damage is fine, it's the 50+% blunt reduction that makes it problematic).  I also don't think your suggestion to make tumbling out of DSB do DSB damage is a good fix either, since impale is 100% unavoidable.  There would simply be no counter to it?  I think that's a bit silly.  I totally understand the problem with DSB/impale/tumble, having played runewarden extensively several times, but I don't think any of your fixes would make things any better (solution 1/2 don't fix it, and 3 is very much broken).

Also, since knight changes are allegedly coming soon, I personally wouldn't invest too much time and effort into trying to find a way to fix it.

Re: Damnation -  Damnation is freaking awesome, and is nowhere near as hard to pull off as people often say it is.  97% of the time people don't know what's going on, or cure poorly, but it's still possible against the 3% who do, if you're good enough.  It's a great ability.

I think the real goal (as has already been said) should be such an ability/kill move for Runewarden.  This leaves the threat of DSB on the table, while also being able to approach/prepare other kill methods, forcing the recipient to make conciencious, dynamic combat decisions (the trademark of the last 2-3 years of "major" classlead changes [see: darkshade, bard, hypochondria, etc])

I disagree. I think the real issue is the relatively low burst (considering it takes so long, 87% w/ runes/str spec/fury) and how sipping health scales with maxhealth/arties. Past a certain health threshold, it becomes essentially impossible to get in ~13% predamage just because once you impale them, they sip essentially to full. And while post-dsb they're left with ~13% of their health (probably lower) and dsls or a lunge or hammer/arc if they shield can usually close that gap. Sometimes it just can't. The damage reduction wouldn't be as huge of a problem if the burst was higher and the burst would allow us some semblance of ability to kill those huge people. 

I know there's the whole "Well I guess you'd better stack some runes on them then!" argument but

1. The classes with the kind of damage mitigation to dsb that we're talking about here are also prep classes and stopping your momentum on hindering afflictions to sketch some runes is a pretty sure way to get fully prepped.

2. Knight has long been accurately described as trying a bunch of different strategies and hoping your target is varying levels of stupid (all the parry bypasses require a lack of knowledge on the part of the target and all can be avoided through curing propperly). The same can apply to a runestack. Smart people run the fuck away and will keep running until you stop trying to sketch consistently and just start dsling. So when you -do- have them fully prepped if they're not already aware from YOUR SLC, they will cure torso if it's broken, run, or get ready to tumble.

The second bit I totally agree with and would love (Kuy had a neat thread a while back about it) but I honestly don't see that happening with the knight changes supposedly incoming.

Jovolo

I think his main point is that the kill would become 100% unavoidable if tumbling off impale did dsb damage equivalent to torso damage dsb, if they have torso damage. I am kind of in agreement, there. I think an unavoidable torso dsb is a silly thing to add to runewardens. Raising imb damage on dsl to make the prep required a lot quicker is a smarter approach.

Bukariin

Higher limb damage doesn't mitigate parry, though, and that's another major point of contention.

Jovolo

Why? There are many methods of bypassing parry, morso for Runewardens than other Knight classes. The point of contention is how many times parry bypass is required, which raised limb damage would equally address.