Eleusis vs Mhaldor, the Good and the Bad!

Anedhel

I've never seen any organization (that I recall) actually surrender in Achaea, except for Cyrene that one time they capitulated the day Ashtan set a street on fire. People bitch about the other side not surrendering, yet I pose it to you, are -you- willing to lose? I don't really expect an answer, and an answer on the forums doesn't matter, but it's something to think about. If the other side came to you and said 'we won,' what would you need to be able to accept it? This conversation'd make way more progress once both sides figure that out.

ETA: Remember, since you can't force someone to capitulate, really, the default answer in Achaea to that question is 'never,' which is exactly the issue. If that's how you think, no matter how erudite or nice your posts on the forums are, you're part of the problem.

Tirac

Rangor said:

This time there weren't defenders and we succeeded with guards.

I understand the desire to go PvE on an empty city considering the significant losses you've been taking in PvP. I think most people in Mhaldor are happy for it to continue considering what they're getting out of it. But I hope you come up with  something better than a guard raid followed by declaring neutral (only Targossas cares about guards).

Silas

Tirac said:

Rangor said:

This time there weren't defenders and we succeeded with guards.

I understand the desire to go PvE on an empty city considering the significant losses you've been taking in PvP. I think most people in Mhaldor are happy for it to continue considering what they're getting out of it. But I hope you come up with  something better than a guard raid followed by declaring neutral (only Targossas cares about guards).

So what you're saying is that Mhaldor cares about nothing and thus cannot lose the war? Well that sure sounds like fun for everybody.

Also, @Anedhel: I surrendered in the Ashtan-Shallam war, and have bitched since then about other people (as witnessed above) being unwilling to accept any manner of defeat.

Achimrst

Anedhel said:

I've never seen any organization (that I recall) actually surrender in Achaea, except for Cyrene that one time they capitulated the day Ashtan set a street on fire.

We can set streets on fire! Get on this shit @Rangor!!!

Anedhel

@Silas is the best.

Rangor

Tirac said:

Rangor said:

This time there weren't defenders and we succeeded with guards.

I understand the desire to go PvE on an empty city considering the significant losses you've been taking in PvP. I think most people in Mhaldor are happy for it to continue considering what they're getting out of it. But I hope you come up with  something better than a guard raid followed by declaring neutral (only Targossas cares about guards).

When you kill all the trees, will you declare victory?

Rangor

When the game doesn't have "win conditions", there's really not much to play with. We can make our own win conditions such as killing shrines, groves, guards or city rooms. Withdraw from the war and claim "victory", but I guess Silas already did that and you guys still don't see that as a lost war.

Mishgul

It's just weird how trivial it all was, and still is.

First one to get a level 3 tank wins the war.

Tirac

Sorry, wouldn't know about that, I've been playing the part of the war that's against humans.

Achimrst

Tirac said:

Sorry, wouldn't know about that, I've been playing the part of the war that's against humans.

I can always go Sylvan and use my heartseed again. Do we win the war if we grow plants out of every Mhaldorian?

Nakari

Rangor said:

When the game doesn't have "win conditions", there's really not much to play with. We can make our own win conditions such as killing shrines, groves, guards or city rooms. Withdraw from the war and claim "victory", but I guess Silas already did that and you guys still don't see that as a lost war.

no, it definitely was considered a loss. Everybody in the city was executed over it (I remember because I was making my push to 80 at the time U.U)

Santar

Certain Mhaldorians tried to pretend that the Targ-Mhal war wasn't a loss. It was obvious, over the course of a couple weeks, that Mhaldorians had no more will to fight us. We dealt a final blow and called it good, since we assumed they were never going to actually 'surrender'. 

In literally less than a week, there were already big Mhaldorian groups defiling Targ shrines, ganking Targossians, and trying to skirmish/raid. This is after Targ decided as a whole to leave Mhaldor be for a while post-war and focus on other things. That doesn't sound like a group of people that are willing to acknowledge they lost. The moment we decided to lay off the attack on them, they started trying to start trouble again. That's hardly accepting defeat. They definitely didn't accept their defeat with any sort of grace or dignity.

Mishgul

To be fair, our core group of combatants were not around for that "final battle" and the week leading up to, I was on holiday, with several Mhaldorian and @Enrai at one of those fabled @Jovolo hosted meets that he never turns up to. I vaguely remember playing rogue legacy and talking to you about it(rogue legacy) when I got back from the meet, a couple of days after the big raid and declaration.

We didn't want to stop fighting either. The "War" was superficial in that instance and this one. Whatever happens, people -want- to keep fighting. There is no way that we would lose and turn around ago "No more combat guys, sit down and shut up. QQ and go play something else." This is Mhaldor after all. Full of crazy combat addicts.

Kross

The problem with tank mechanics is it's all too easy to use tactics to stall or ruin the chance at a lvl 2/3 tank. Mid raid, with even numbers, someone knows this tank could be the "loss" of the war. Have everyone leave city/qq/go to ship/goto grove/goto other cities and avoid death in city at all costs until sanction ends. GG, you didn't get tank, we didn't lose the war (Either side could do this and simply avoid the conflict outright).

Since the tanks don't progress past level 1 without player (soldier) death in-city, the defenders against the tank have all of the available means to outright deny a tank at all, let alone a lvl 2/3.

Silas

Yeah, have to be honest, would rather go to war with Ashtan again than Mhaldor. At least when Ashtan bends us over, we can accept defeat and things will change for a few weeks.

Moghedu has also seen first-hand how productive an actual war with Mhaldor is.

Anedhel

So people are bitching that others don't surrender, when they're unwilling to ever surrender? Come on, you're better than that. -_-

Mishgul

Achaea mechanically doesn't allow for any  victory conditions to stand. Having faith in the player base of any faction is a folly in my experience. Literally the only way to win, as Ovid kept preaching, is to grief people into not wanting to fight (usually into not playing outright), because as long as people want to fight, they have nothing to lose that isn't entirely superficial and subjective.

Silas

That's your decision, though, to view destroyed rooms, no guards and no shrines as no big deal. There is everything in place for victory conditions to be set, it's just not hardcoded. Instead, it requires the leaders to place value on their resources such that they stand to lose something if they're taken away.

Kiah

Wait... what the hell?  

1. Eleusis does not kill guards every single time they raid. Mhaldor doesn't only exterminate every time they "raid". (Exterminating kinda isn't raiding, but they really do raid sometimes.) 

2. Both Eleusis and Mhaldor will raid each other's cities whenever they damn well please, whether there are enough defenders or not. 

3. Guards are there to help defend the city from attacks when there aren't enough defenders to do it, so why the hell wouldn't people use them when that time comes? Both Eleusis and Mhaldor have and do call guards when they need help. 

4. Worldburn is meant to protect shrines from defilement, but if the god that shrine belongs to is a patron or whatever to the city, then naturally worldburn is also meant to protect the citizens and the city as well. Similar to guards, we all use worldburn when the need presents itself. Keyword here: "all" as in both Mhaldor and Eleusis do this. 

There is no excuse for pointing fingers, here. Everyone is acting like assholes to each other, and doing griefy shit all day and night long. This war has totally blown my mind tbh. If it's going to get worse than this I'll be legitimately surprised because I don't really see how it can, although I kinda get the feeling there are more antics to come, lol. But I just really don't like it that people are acting like any one side is being worse than the other. Quite frankly I'm disappointed that Eleusis can't fight back harder, I don't think we've raided or griefed nearly enough!! See below:

afaik no one is "timezone" raiding. I've never ever heard anyone on either side be like 'Ohhhkay guys let's all show up at such and such GMT where the majority of x city's players are going to be asleep or at work etc., so that we can win.'

@Rangor plays Achaea at a certain time of day, every day. He is, quite frankly, the only willing raid leader we have right now - although @Iakimen has been trying as he slowly makes a comeback. So, when Rangor is around, guess what we do? We raid. Because that's what Rangor likes to do, and we're all fucking riproaring ready to go after like 13 hrs worth of exterm and raiding and etc that we either barely could or completely couldn't fend off. When he's gone, there's (usually) no one to take his place, so we go on the defensive. It has absolutely nothing at all to do with timezone tactics or whatever other bullshit. To reiterate: Both Mhaldor and Eleusis will raid whenever they damn well please, whether there are enough defenders or not. 

tl;dr? well f u 2 it's not even that long  

Santar

Targossas had already won the Targ-Mhal war before the final battle. It was readily apparent to everyone. For weeks prior, Mhaldor barely put up a fight and was very obviously discouraged. They didn't want to fight us any longer, and we didn't want to continue fighting an opponent that wasn't fighting back. The only thing the final battle did was make it undeniable. Targ gracefully opted to stop kicking Mhaldor while they were already down for the count.

You say you didn't have any fighters around for the final battle - That's because they logged off or didn't participate. One of your best fighters at the time in Mhaldor sat in Delos during the raid, sending me insulting tells and challenging me to duel him in Delos arena during the raid. It was obvious that nobody in Mhaldor wanted to fight us anymore, which is why  we ended it. If you guys had felt like defending in full force, I know for a fact that you could've deflected our raid that day. The simple fact is that Mhaldor wanted it to be over, and Mhaldor knew it wasn't going to end in their favour. They gave up after weeks of losing.

Herenicus

Would be worth accepting a defeat just to RP simmering Weimar Republic-style rage and come back later with a reasonable OOC expectation of reciprocity. Still, I don't know if any one raid or string of raids, however successful, can realistically be roleplayed as more decisive than exterminating some trees. One RL week later, nobody much remembers or cares.  

Athelas

The one thing I enjoy about Achaea, is the fact that it is an honest exercise in learning to care about the important things. This war has shown me things about both the characters and the people I play with. The whole joke here, is that Athelas as a character, is actually bit of a coward. He is a scholar, and I've always played him as such. He didn't join the army because he thought it would be grand, it was purely RP and due only to an accidental kill he managed to get on @Vicious, when @Vicious was part of an exterm group in the Black Forest.

Athelas has more than just a grove in the Black Forest, so when that exterm happened, I played him exactly how I should have. He joined the defenders, expecting to die quickly, but unwilling to let his home suffer while he could lift as much as a finger.

That was the first time both Athelas and I achieved any kind of PvP kill. Yes @Vicious, your face is burned into his mind for all time, because of that little fact. You did get back at him though, when he had that relic he couldn't get rid of.

After that lucky hit, Athelas was asked if he would like to join the army. As a player I was surprised, and Athelas as a character was very unsure, it took a bit of convincing from others that he is quite capable at backing up the fighters, and that it's okay if he can't fight.

Not two years later, he is a soldier in a war, afraid and feeling the strain of relentless attacks, standing shoulder to shoulder with people like @Rangor, @Marv, @Kiah and many others, the only reason he did not quit the army at the start of the war, when offered the option, was because he knew he'd never be able to live with himself if he did.

Athelas is not particularly brave, he is not particularly special, and by all accounts, the least of the soldiers in the Eleusian army.

He is still a scholar at heart, and hopes that each time he pays a visit to Thoth, that he would not need to do it again.

During this war, he has had to leave his quill and inks, replacing them for a quarterstaff and blood. During this war, he has learned the elation of victory and the devastation of defeat.

As a player, I have re-discovered, that the story is far more important than the XP ranking or how much HP I can min-max my way too. There have been times when I've rushed into combat without so much as deffing with mass. Yes @Hasar, I'm looking at you, you've managed to hoist Athelas at least once.

I honestly have no clue where this war is going, and neither does Athelas. What I do know though, is that I've actually enjoyed this, as a player.

Athelas on the other hand, would love to rip the beating hart from every Mhaldorian, and offer their still warm corpse to the nearest shrine of any god friendly to forestalls.

Regardless of whatever else happens, including calling each other out on forums. I'd like to take the time to say thank you to you as a player, for even making this kind of interaction possible. Yes, that includes you guys playing Mhaldorians. I already have a small mountain of little stories in and around Athelas, this event just added a chapter or two.

Without people actually logging in, taking the time and expending the effort needed to just be there and be counted, there simply would be no game to begin with.

Yes, emotions will run high, but that's why we are here, isn't it?

Halios

The level of bitching about this war is too damn high.

Silas

It's also very bland. Step it up, please.

Herenicus

If we didn't work so feverishly to exhaust ourselves and each other, we could roleplay blowing stuff up like the Bridge over Gruu'n Chasm or damming the Zaphar such that it floods the Eleusian septic systems. Takes time though.    

Asmodron

Fine.

Why the violence yo? Why all the carnage and destruction? Why isnt the United Forces of the Garden putting sanctions on Mhaldor for its war crimes? Why is Mhaldor being allowed to harm and kill these innocent people? Why is Ashtan not stopping Mhaldor? It is just supplying them! Peace talks in Hashan will never work! No peace to the murderers!

Ashtan isnt the land of freedom. It is the true evil!

#FreeMoghedu

Saeva

A group of us went out to hunt and defile last night and it turned into a big skirmish in the Ithmias for a good hour or two... Cresil walked into a wasps nest (grove) of a big group of Eleusians including Rangor. That was the point I expected them to gather up and effectively and painfully eject us from the forest. No go. Rangor didn't join in. Gotta say that confused me a little considering how gung-ho to lead the troops he is,  or to raid and skirmish. I kept waiting on surprise ambushes, but nothing. And that was the moment Mhaldor won the war in Saeva's mind. The General's spirit has been crushed!! Victory!

(I have no idea what he was in the middle of or why he didn't fight so don't take my words to heart as I know many of you will feel inclined to do)

Seftin

All joking aside, this war has worked out pretty fun for me, so far I've been Serpent, Jester and monk in it, I've led a few small raid defences (nothing major) a few small ganks etc, and done quite a bit of solo fighting (personally). I've seen acts of uber-dickdom but also acts of real kindness from each side, and have even gone so far as to roleplay!

I want to see Eleusis get a bit more co-ordinated, sometimes its frustrating seeing some of them doing silly things in group fights, but then again I do the same every now and then. All in all, proud of what's gone on, bit lame some of it (feels like pve and non interaction on some of it -- see exterminate/guard bashing) but oh well!

been fun, I'm in no mood to tone it down unless I lose dragon (28% so doubt it).

thanks guys!

Also - to some of Mhaldor for being good sports, thanks!

Exelethril

Seftin said:

All joking aside, this war has worked out pretty fun for me, so far I've been Serpent, Jester and monk in it, I've led a few small raid defences (nothing major) a few small ganks etc, and done quite a bit of solo fighting (personally). I've seen acts of uber-dickdom but also acts of real kindness from each side, and have even gone so far as to roleplay!

I want to see Eleusis get a bit more co-ordinated, sometimes its frustrating seeing some of them doing silly things in group fights, but then again I do the same every now and then. All in all, proud of what's gone on, bit lame some of it (feels like pve and non interaction on some of it -- see exterminate/guard bashing) but oh well!

been fun, I'm in no mood to tone it down unless I lose dragon (28% so doubt it).

thanks guys!

Also - to some of Mhaldor for being good sports, thanks!

And now you're a Sentinel again 

Nyderrasethi

Cresil said:

I think it is important to note that the reason Eleusis raids off peak isn't a guerilla warfare tactic, but the complete and utter impossibility that Eleusis will raid without their fearless General. 

The major difference is Mhaldor has a few leaders (see: @Hasar, @Xer, @Micositu, @Crixos, even @Vicious) that are more than willing (and have) lead parties into Eleusis and even sanctioned raids. Haven't always tanked or guard wiped, but neither has Eleusis without Rangor really.

I've lead a few raids and participated in a few with Iakimen on Isle or in Mhaldor. The problem being, we are around during Mhaldor's peak hours and our down hours, such as yesterday where Mhaldor had 17 to fight 5-6 people.  Or the day before where Eleusis had 14 to fight 5-6 Mhaldorians. If we were all around at the same time, things would be fun and epic but many people fail to realize that there are people from all over the world who enjoy this game and many of them join cities and places where people are abundant during their hours of playing. It just so happens the European timezone is Eleusis' time and the American one is for Mhaldor. I don't think anyone is abusing anything, just taking the fight to the enemy when they have fighters able and willing.