Best in each class

Ernam

@Mizik I'm for an overall mitigation cap of certain kill moves, like BBT.  Level 1 torso break BBTs should never drop down to like 35%-40% damage, which is common.  Even level 2 torso break BBTs are relatively ignorable, even with predamage and enfeeble.  While I do think it's nice to have a reason to pursue non-BBT kill strategies (which I absolutely do), I definitely don't think stacking all of of those different methods was intended in either monk or runewarden's class design.

I'd have to do some specific testing, but it would appear that you mitigated around 60-70% of the BBT's damage.

Talysin

Ernam said:

Wunjo/Nairat in adjacent rooms is one of the most effective defensive maneuvers in the game, for 1v1 combat.  Against monks, for example, it can essentially stop almost every single kill method available to the class, simply by tumbling into it.  The possibility for a runie to tumble into their own wunjo/nairat existing forces a monk to counter this by either mind throwing them somewhere else, canceling the tumble, forcing an unenemy (doesn't work against good people), etc.  This additional requirement/balance time is enough to disrupt most kill setups (you can't BBT/command).  Serpent/BM can simply evade, but even that is 2 seconds during what would otherwise be an uninterrupted kill setup.  Tumbling into wunjo/nairat on a snap, for example could easily be the difference between a lock and easily curing out.  You can always just walk (instead of tumble) into wunjo/nairat any time you need to cure up, for a pretty solid 3-5 seconds of safety, which is more than enough to ruin most classes momentum.

Uruz, on another hand, should absolutely not be discounted.  For damage classes, it can very easily be the difference between it being possible to kill someone, and being simply mathematically impossible.  Mizik's example in that log is a pretty good example of how stacked regen can completely shut down even the best (and most artefacted) kill setups.

I also once saw Aelios completely break a Rampage by starting the event by dropping Nauthiz (hunger) runes in every room in the first 30 seconds.  Thankfully he did it before the event started, so I was able to quit, buy a ton of food, then rejoin - but that thing is seriously dangerous when used well.

Tiwaz is also pretty awesome, but I never see anyone use it...

Ground runes are no joke.

Hah, that rampage was so funny. Cadarus and I were housed up in the water room the entire time.

Wessux

Ernam said:

Wunjo/Nairat in adjacent rooms is one of the most effective defensive maneuvers in the game, for 1v1 combat.  Against monks, for example, it can essentially stop almost every single kill method available to the class, simply by tumbling into it.  The possibility for a runie to tumble into their own wunjo/nairat existing forces a monk to counter this by either mind throwing them somewhere else, canceling the tumble, forcing an unenemy (doesn't work against good people), etc.  This additional requirement/balance time is enough to disrupt most kill setups (you can't BBT/command).  Serpent/BM can simply evade, but even that is 2 seconds during what would otherwise be an uninterrupted kill setup.  Tumbling into wunjo/nairat on a snap, for example could easily be the difference between a lock and easily curing out.  You can always just walk (instead of tumble) into wunjo/nairat any time you need to cure up, for a pretty solid 3-5 seconds of safety, which is more than enough to ruin most classes momentum.

Uruz, on another hand, should absolutely not be discounted.  For damage classes, it can very easily be the difference between it being possible to kill someone, and being simply mathematically impossible.  Mizik's example in that log is a pretty good example of how stacked regen can completely shut down even the best (and most artefacted) kill setups.

I also once saw Aelios completely break a Rampage by starting the event by dropping Nauthiz (hunger) runes in every room in the first 30 seconds.  Thankfully he did it before the event started, so I was able to quit, buy a ton of food, then rejoin - but that thing is seriously dangerous when used well.

Tiwaz is also pretty awesome, but I never see anyone use it...

Ground runes are no joke.

What you said. ^

What I heard. "I'm a scrub."

Jarrel

Wouldn't even fight 1v1 if I had a TF, it's below me.

Seftin

Jarrel said:

Wouldn't even fight 1v1 if I had a TF, it's below me.

read TF as thoths fang and was about to play my bullshit card, then it sunk in.

Mizik

Jarrel said:

Wouldn't even fight 1v1 if I had a TF, it's below me.

Eh on one hand, anything workout a RESIST ALL defense to mitigate the "unblockable" DSB damage would simply die indiscriminately. On the other hand, that damage cut came flat off the top, nullifying all my damage. Also stacked with algiz.

Then he discovered Numb, so an extra chunk off the top.

Anedhel

Favourshields suck

Eld

Daeir said:

Do favourshields and Mir stack? That would be funny.

http://forums.achaea.com/discussion/comment/101467/#Comment_101467
Yes. Yes they do.

Ernam

Why would they not?  I'm confused.  They stack with every form of damage mitigation in the game. (other than other TFs)

Eld

Daeir said:

Wow.

Eld's log is reason enough as to why they shouldn't stack. That is some crazy mitigation right there.

Well, you could have them stack, but with some reduction in effectiveness, and still probably have a manageable situation. But, yeah, it's a pretty insane combination as-is (assuming I didn't miss it being changed some time this year). 

Caladbolg

I've had mir stance,Truefavor,Runes, Blessings ..think that's it.
All at the same time working together.
Jarrel Still axk'd me for over 80%, or is it Jarrod one of those two you guys know who im talking about.

Edit: Also for the record did the same thing but switched to Arash and still laughed in Proficys face when he tried to broken torso bbt me.

Valaria

I guess even not god can save you from being axk'd. maybe you should throw divine fire in there to see if that help much...

Ernam

Mizik said:

scoff

@Ernam our 4am Runie vs eternal TF monk dates

Priest vs BM is nowhere near as fun.

Mizik

It is for the BM! You're Good now, think of others. 

Kadin

Can I vote myself "Most improved" alchemist? Thats gotta count for something. Heh. Thanks Jhui.

Kadin

Got 5 alchie kill strats down that work on just about anyone regardless of prios. 2 locks (no aeon), 2 aurify (not relying on sanguine), and a damage strat that melts 10.1k health to 0 in about 35s. Working hard but my biggest issue is mana conservation. Trying to figure out how I'd counter priest. Seems like it'd be pretty strong vs alchie. 

Ernam

Alchs need to do what everyone else needs to do.  Alter their combat strategy to minimize mana use.

Monks can't transmute, Magi can't Holo/SH (much), Shamans need to watch their beligerant swiftcursing, and so on.

Or... buy a bunch of mana/sip arties.

I can personally attest to alch being extremely dangerous, even for priests, so I don't see it as an immediate problem.  You also have a ton of ways to hinder priests to slow them down, which you should explore.

Another common anti-priest strategy I've seen work very effectively is simply punishing the priest for over-the-top mana use.  I never realized how incredibly mana intense priest offense is, and alch offense is pretty much designed to destroy mana.  Punish priests for using too much mana, and/or focus on attacks that use up even more, which not only slows us down, but also synergizes very well with several alchemist kill strategies.

Kadin

Ernam said:

Alchs need to do what everyone else needs to do.  Alter their combat strategy to minimize mana use.

Monks can't transmute, Magi can't Holo/SH (much), Shamans need to watch their beligerant swiftcursing, and so on.

Or... buy a bunch of mana/sip arties.

I can personally attest to alch being extremely dangerous, even for priests, so I don't see it as an immediate problem.  You also have a ton of ways to hinder priests to slow them down, which you should explore.

Another common anti-priest strategy I've seen work very effectively is simply punishing the priest for over-the-top mana use.  I never realized how incredibly mana intense priest offense is, and alch offense is pretty much designed to destroy mana.  Punish priests for using too much mana, and/or focus on attacks that use up even more, which not only slows us down, but also synergizes very well with several alchemist kill strategies.

The issue is every single skill we have uses a good bit of mana. I'm not extremely high int yet so that might be some of my problem. I have no issue with hindering. I also need to be more situational when I use focus and am low on mana. 

Ernam

Indeed, if you're getting smacked around by a priest, chances are that priest is heavily artied.  Naturally, heavy artied offense is typically countered by defensive artefacts.  One of the perks of playing a class that goes after mana is that 95% of players only buy health-based artefacts (see: both of my characters) and almost entirely ignores mana sip/regen/sash.  This is augmented by the fact that (as you mentioned) most people min-max their offense and ignore other less lulzy stats like Dex and Int.  The result of this is that you get smacked around by things that are mitigated by having those stats.

You should keep in mind that alchemist isn't even close to being the worst at using mana for your offense.  Magi use way more mana and can still handle it just fine (although magi do tend to spec Int, giving them more mana).

Something a lot of people don't notice off the bat is that almost everything mana-related is a fixed amount, while most priest mana attacks are percentage based.  So, unlike health, increasing your max mana is actually really, really helpful, and is one of the big reasons things like sash/bracelet are fantastic to have.


Also, most people are significantly worse at managing mana use than they think they are.

Kadin

Of course against affliction classes (occie, serpent, etc) I do prio mana unless a situation arises where I need to switch back. I definitely don't believe anything is wrong with alchie causin my mana to dump every now and then. Just think I need to make some small adjustments to my offense/defense to be more efficient on mana without giving up too much pressure. I may post some of my logs later since I've been alchemist if people are interested. I'm a little hesitant about it though.