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New Bashing Changes!

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  • RohaiRohai Member Posts: 451 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited July 2014
    Bluef said:
    Rohai said:
    Can we get a shield-takedown for monks now? I always figured we didn't get one because we already had solid hunting, but now that we don't, it would be nice to at least have that. Especially if knight classes are the new hunting powerhouses, and they already have raze, seems like it's only fair for us to get something similar.

    While we're leveling things out, let's make shaman's Bleed go through denizen shields too, pls. 

    Not sure if I'm misreading your tone because things can get muddled on the internet, but in conjunction with the 'disagree,' it seems a little snide and I'm not sure how necessary that was? It's just a suggestion. The amount of times I've heard non-monks say something along the lines of, "Oh man you guys have nothing for shields? That sucks," leads me to believe it's not all that outlandish of an idea.

    Shirszae
  • AlaricAlaric CanadaMember Posts: 73 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Bluef said:
    Rohai said:
    Can we get a shield-takedown for monks now? I always figured we didn't get one because we already had solid hunting, but now that we don't, it would be nice to at least have that. Especially if knight classes are the new hunting powerhouses, and they already have raze, seems like it's only fair for us to get something similar.

    While we're leveling things out, let's make shaman's Bleed go through denizen shields too, pls. 

    Yes please


    Cahin said:
    Obliterate was a fair and balanced ability and it's removal from puppetry and vodun should have been a crime.
    ShirszaeErnam
  • SuladanSuladan Member Posts: 193 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished

    @Sarapis‌ Relieved that something will be done to rebuff Dragons a bit. I think the community definitely feels that bashing-wise they should be a bit OP, though perhaps it was too much - not there yet, so don't subjectively know.

    From my own viewpoint, getting to Dragon is definitely billed as a major accomplishment - even being mentioned right at the beginning of character generation (at least it used to be). I knew it was a whole new game at Dragon bashing and that has been one of the goals holding me to Achaea and keeping me bashing over the last year and a half or so. Achieving Dragon made me buy bashing artefacts (pendant, lash (not particularly vital for PvP, but game-changer for PvE - same with SoE, etc.) I'm now within a couple months of making it (with the time that I have to be on) and as it stands now, verified by the numbers coming in on the Miscellaneious Maths/Testing II thread, I bash much better now than I would as a Dragon.

    Piercing the Veil I'm sure is great and a good utility, but I already have several methods of travel (warps, shipreturn, bronze token, wings) so that alone isn't really worth the 180ish hours of solid bashing I have left to get there (and I'm already level 91, doing about 5% per hour) - plus the credits to buy the lessons to learn dragoncraft.

    If it's not going to go back to how it was, maybe at least halfway between where it is now and where it was so that it's still at least (and should be a little better) than where artied lesserform bashing would be. Could also do a buff on dragon armor or give a regen ability or something that would make them tankier so there's a significant reason they're better; especially if damage isn't going to be spectacular. Potentially that could balance out as otherwise I heard that unartied Dragon can't tank a DK anymore. 

    The Truths hurt. Always.
  • KazuKazu Member Posts: 952 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    @Suladan You don't have to learn dragoncraft. I believe it mirrors your highest transed class skill, but I'm not 100% sure on that. I was already tri-trans when I got dragon.


  • AktillumAktillum PhilippinesMember Posts: 1,368 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited July 2014

    I'm sad that Dragon is an "end-game reward" for lots of people. To me, Achaea has always been without "endgame". Bashing to Dragon is a goal for everyone, I bashed to 100 and don't bash whatsoever anymore. There are too many MMOs where the "end game reward" is epic gear that just lets you grind faster, and unfortunately, Dragon fell into that category.

    I can't tell other people how to play but if your idea of an end-game reward is grinding to something that lets you grind faster, you might be missing out on all the other stuff Achaea offers.

    I understand that Dragons should have a certain OP quality because they're freaking Dragons. But lets honestly examine what we've "lost" here - faster grinding after you've already grinded for hundreds of hours.

    I'm 100% for anything that moves Achaea away from being a pointless grindfest MMO.


    PraxidesMizik
  • ShirszaeShirszae Santo DomingoMember Posts: 3,235 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    @Aktillum‌ Except this does not really make Achaea less of a grindfest. You still have to grind, be it for lessons, credits, or gold. People are complaining because while the negative got a little more bearable with this changes, its still fundamentally a nerf to the positive aspect that rewarded their patience in the end.

    I don't particularly mind the nerf overmuch myself (then again, I am no dragon), but I do think that as a class, it is starting to seem a little lackluster. 

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...


    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

  • JacenJacen Member Posts: 2,305 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    The weird thing is that it really solidifies dragon as a PvP reward for PvE

    image
    Bluef
  • AktillumAktillum PhilippinesMember Posts: 1,368 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited July 2014

    @Shirszae I agree Dragons sort of suck as a class. Despite a useful travel ability and high tanking, I've only really used Dragon for DOR DRAGONROAR in group PvP. I've actually been bashing in lesserform when I want to raise a bit of gold, only because I have more fun in Bard than Dragon. 

    I have faith Saracton will adjust things a bit and Dragons will still be a reward for hard work, they just won't steamroll UW/Annwyn and make credits that much harder for non-Dragons to buy.

    Jacen said:

    The weird thing is that it really solidifies dragon as a PvP reward for PvE

    No no, pre-Dragoncraft Dragon Runies with 25str and battleaxes were a PvP reward for PvE. Outside group PvP, nobody really uses the lame-o monk-clone prep class that is Dragoncraft. Dragon is still the top PvE tank.


  • NyderrasethiNyderrasethi Member Posts: 91 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished

    I'd be interested to see the overall damage of all classes to stay about where it is now. With obvious tweaks needed on Dragon and a few other classes that might just be a little low.

    A few more things I wouldn't mind seeing added:

    Group XP increased to make it much more viable. Perhaps a little lower than singular hunting. Give us a reason to group up and have some fun together.

    More Hunting Areas for the higher levels that aren't on Islands (lvl 80+) 

    RohaiBluef
  • AktillumAktillum PhilippinesMember Posts: 1,368 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    I think the relics are a great addition as "endgame content", except for the open-PK bit. What'd be great is new areas with decent gold drops, decent XP, and relic-dropping honors mobs. That would encourage group PvE in a WoW-dungeon sort of way. I mean thats sort of what relics are right now, but not quite.


  • JukilianJukilian Member Posts: 1,579 @ - Epic Achaean
    Rohai said:
    Can we get a shield-takedown for monks now? I always figured we didn't get one because we already had solid hunting, but now that we don't, it would be nice to at least have that. Especially if knight classes are the new hunting powerhouses, and they already have raze, seems like it's only fair for us to get something similar.

    This has been suggested before about having every class have some form of shield takedown.

    I believe the answer was along the lines of: Just because a few classes have them doesn't mean that every class should have them. It's not a good argument. If you're going to do that, may as well let Magi erode shields off of denizens (I don't really care about that, just an example).

    Shirszae
  • ShirszaeShirszae Santo DomingoMember Posts: 3,235 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    I truly wish the relics were not open-pk. The areas maybe, but not the relics themselves. But heh, I don't think thats about to happen any time soon.

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...


    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

  • AktillumAktillum PhilippinesMember Posts: 1,368 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited July 2014
    Shirszae said:

    I truly wish the relics were not open-pk. The areas maybe, but not the relics themselves. But heh, I don't think thats about to happen any time soon.

    Delete Icons

    Fill Nish with aggro mobs and relic-dropping honors guys

    Relics reset after 24 hours and are not open-PK on the holder

    Boom, relics are fixed and relocated to a new open-PvP bashing area, Icons are scrapped, group PvE is encouraged.


    ShirszaeValariaBluefDraqoom
  • AerekAerek East Tennessee, USAMember Posts: 1,818 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    I don't see why Dragon needs to be some universally lusted-after carrot. If you want it, you want it. If you don't, you don't. Being a City leader is also featured in the website's video, and I doubt most of the game actually wants to do that.

    I've only been 3 classes in my life: Priest, Paladin, and recently Runewarden. Priest I knew was awful, Paladin I thought was good, and Runewarden I actually thought was one of the best in the game. From the changes, my bashing damage has almost-but-not-quite doubled. Point being, if I thought knight bashing was awesome before, and I've been buffed up to a midpoint, and Monks, Blademasters, and Dragons have been nerfed to that same midpoint, then I cannot even begin to comprehend how awesome Monk/Dragon bashing must have been. Dragons, in particular, must have been so absurd that for the first time in my life, I actually understand the appeal of being one.

    The "worth" of Dragon is such a subjective perception, though. You still get ~2000 extra health, a whole new skillset, and are all-around cool to everyone coming into the game, so it's still a neat end-game in my book. And even if you can bash faster in lesserform, Dragonform is essentially invincibility to most denizens, so I don't think a lower-than-average DPS is unfair from a balance perspective. I understand that folks who bashed to Dragon specifically for the 2x bashing speed are irked, but is that any different from the Monks who liked Tripblock when it vanished, or the Sentinels who loved Axestun when it disappeared?

    I don't think the individual's desire to be overpowered in one way or other trumps the game designer's assessment that a feature is unbalancing the game.


    -- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
    AktillumArcionValaria
  • SenaSena Member Posts: 3,957 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    Aerek said:

    Point being, if I thought knight bashing was awesome before, and I've been buffed up to a midpoint, and Monks, Blademasters, and Dragons have been nerfed to that same midpoint, then I cannot even begin to comprehend how awesome Monk/Dragon bashing must have been.

    Artied runewarden now is actually about where unartied dragon was before the changes, offensively. Or with awesome rapiers, potentially even better than artied dragon was. Unartied runewardens with decent rapiers were buffed up to that midpoint, but with artefacts or great rapiers, they tower over the midpoint.

  • RakonRakon Member Posts: 267 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent

    @Sena where's an infernal without essence stand now days?

  • SenaSena Member Posts: 3,957 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited July 2014
    Rakon said:

    @Sena where's an infernal without essence stand now days?

    Weaponry is currently bugged (or at least unintentionally awesome, if not technically bugged), so it's hard to answer that properly. Mostly because there's no way to know how things will change when it's fixed, and the current situation is ridiculous. With that in mind:

    With the way weaponry works right now, you're basically classless but with better armour. DSL just averages together two plain weapon attacks, so you're better off using plain weapon attacks instead of DSL, because then you only need one great weapon instead of two, and you can use a tower shield.

    On one hand, that still makes you far better than dragon. On the other hand, so is everyone else, because everyone has weaponry (and they're better off using that than their class skills). Except for the people who are getting more reasonable weapon attacks, as some apparently are.

    Edit: If the fix only brings single weapon attacks down and leaves DSL where it is, then an infernal without essence is going to be in a pretty good place still. DSL is a lot more powerful than it used to be, possibly the best bashing attack (but I'm still missing data on a lot of classes, so I can't say for sure yet).

    Praxides
  • StunereeStuneree Member Posts: 221 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished

    I should probably point out to people (Also mentioned by @Aerek‌ ) that a bashing stat many people recommend to others is constitution for tankiness... If tankiness is more important for bashing, then dragonform doing less damage with the reward being no chance of dying seems like it's still alright...

    Of course I'm just trying to lighten the mood, because people are pissed as Hell the last two days.



    KerriaAradorUtianima
  • JarrodJarrod Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 3,060 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    @Sena are you telling me Thoth's Fang is an ultra-bashing artie now?

    image
    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

    Rom
  • JukilianJukilian Member Posts: 1,579 @ - Epic Achaean
    Sena said:
    Rakon said:

    @Sena where's an infernal without essence stand now days?

    Weaponry is currently bugged (or at least unintentionally awesome, if not technically bugged), so it's hard to answer that properly. Mostly because there's no way to know how things will change when it's fixed, and the current situation is ridiculous. With that in mind:

    With the way weaponry works right now, you're basically classless but with better armour. DSL just averages together two plain weapon attacks, so you're better off using plain weapon attacks instead of DSL, because then you only need one great weapon instead of two, and you can use a tower shield.

    On one hand, that still makes you far better than dragon. On the other hand, so is everyone else, because everyone has weaponry (and they're better off using that than their class skills). Except for the people who are getting more reasonable weapon attacks, as some apparently are.

    Edit: If the fix only brings single weapon attacks down and leaves DSL where it is, then an infernal without essence is going to be in a pretty good place still. DSL is a lot more powerful than it used to be, possibly the best bashing attack (but I'm still missing data on a lot of classes, so I can't say for sure yet).

    If you need some Magi numbers, I'm happy to help.

  • SenaSena Member Posts: 3,957 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited July 2014
    Jarrod said:

    @Sena are you telling me Thoth's Fang is an ultra-bashing artie now?

    Yes, >300 DPS even at 12 strength.

    Unless you're unfortunate enough to be unbugged.

    Rom
  • RomRom Member Posts: 523 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean

    My t-fang (71/xx/271) was doing 295 per jab at 18 strength yesterday, but is doing 609 today. That puts me, with nimble, at higher dps than old artied dragon. That's before reflexes! I bugged it already, handaxe was also freakishly high for a period yesterday when dirk wasn't. Expect to see yesterday's number become the norm I think, which is still a nice increase over what it used to be.

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  • KerriaKerria The Red LionessMember Posts: 1,120 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Aerek said:

    I don't see why Dragon needs to be some universally lusted-after carrot. If you want it, you want it. If you don't, you don't. Being a City leader is also featured in the website's video, and I doubt most of the game actually wants to do that.


    I want to do everything in the video... because it said that I can! *rally*

  • SenaSena Member Posts: 3,957 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    I think Rom's presumably-unbugged numbers (130+DamageStat*1.3) are a good place for plain weaponry attacks. It's still worse than class skills, but good enough to be viable (going with a nonstandard weapon for style will hinder you, but not cripple you).

    Kerria
  • MizikMizik Member Posts: 2,101 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited July 2014

    Sword/Shield Knight so solid, even after single jab nerfs. Fullplate + Tower stacking is great!

    Dat SoA, though. Super lucky.

    Super laggy. Balance ranged from 3s, to 1.4s - the 1.6ish ones are the real ones.

    https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/a611ff13

    image
  • AntoniusAntonius Member Posts: 4,904 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Stuneree said:

    I should probably point out to people (Also mentioned by @Aerek‌ ) that a bashing stat many people recommend to others is constitution for tankiness... If tankiness is more important for bashing, then dragonform doing less damage with the reward being no chance of dying seems like it's still alright...

    Of course I'm just trying to lighten the mood, because people are pissed as Hell the last two days.

    There are a lot of places where you simply don't need the dragon tankiness, though, and a large part of what made dragon really capable of tanking large groups of denizens was the fact that you'd kill a fair number of them pretty quickly, unless you got absolutely dire luck with critical hits. Factor in the fact that dragonform takes ~18 seconds (without elder dragon) and there's probably little point in hunting as a dragon, unless you only EVER do areas that absolutely require the increased resistances and constitution (and, depending on class, ability to wield a shield).

  • MishgulMishgul ROTHERHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMMember Posts: 5,362 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    dragon is easy pvp for when you get ganked too imo if you are unartied. I am in Orzaansyn's boat with this one.

    -

    One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important

    As drawn by Shayde
    hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae
  • AntoniusAntonius Member Posts: 4,904 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    Did a bit of testing, and weapon damage still feels incredibly wrong to me. There's not enough of an increase from variation in damage stat, which means that rapiers are far and away the best weapons (not that anybody is surprised by that); that's going to be even more apparent when you factor in the increased number of critical hits due to more frequent attacks.

    All numbers are with 19 strength, Transcendent Chivalry and Weaponry, using my level three artefact rapiers (90 damage, 2.2 second attack) and level two artefact broadswords (151 damage, ~3.2 second attack):

    Rapier doubleslash: 726 damage, 330 DPS.

    Rapier jab: 616 damage, 280 DPS.

    Broadsword doubleslash: 932 damage, 291.25 DPS.

    Broadsword jab: 792 damage, 247.5 DPS.

  • BonkoBonko Member Posts: 692 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited July 2014


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