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New Bashing Changes!

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  • StunereeStuneree Member Posts: 221 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished

    So are knights top-tier for bashing now or what?



  • SenaSena Member Posts: 3,954 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    Knight or bard. Serpent would be up there too, except for the fact that dex spec means sacrificing con, so they're kind of a glass cannon if you focus on offence (artefacts can fix that though).

    Illyose
  • CaladbolgCaladbolg Campbell County TNMember Posts: 1,126 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Atalkez said:
    Caladbolg said:
    Sena said:

    It would probably be helpful to see single slashes with those swords, then single slash (just to see if having chivalry matters for single slashes) and DSL with 1/1/1 practice rapiers. All at 12 strength, if possible.

    I have some extra rapiers just laying around. but I can't get lower than 16 strength



    Atalkez said:

    Bashing for BM isn't utterly terrible right now, at least for me. Granted I do have some arties to help out.

    Burst was nice those few days that it was high in damage, but low in EQ. Most of the time, when a denizen shields drawslash speed alone (assuming Mir, Sanya, Arash, or Doya) isn't fast enough to kill inside of one shield balance. Which slows down bashing. In Thyr, I was able to drawslash and use Burst as a finisher, and it was working quite nicely. I'm sure this isn't an issue as far as the mechanics go, it was just really nice to not have to fight shield for two or three rounds to get a kill. Making Burst go through shield would be fun, given it's less than appealing damage now.

    I wouldn't say Mir+Burst was that good, because you were still losing speed. In Mir, I drawslash about 2.5 balance time, Burst is averaging out to a flat 4. For ever two Bursts you could have slashed three times.

    Overall, it is fine the way it is now. With Mir you can still tank reasonably well, and if you can handle the damage Arash is always a fun time bashing. Blademaster isn't supposed to be knight-level tanking, and I don't believe it should be either. A bit of squishy-ness isn't a bad thing.

    Personally I found Paladin bashing better than lv3 band Blademaster before because of how much tankier I felt, even though I dropped Con spec for strength spec.

    On the other hand I was also running with 12 strength as bm usually, and mir stance before made your dps pretty bad.

    Also Mir stance is only a 15%  damage reduction with runes not stacking with it to well, your better off not being in mir stance and getting runes about 100% of the time. (Blessings too :D)


    Seftin said:

    Why don't they just post the DPS that each class can do on the forums as part of the new changes?

    To many different factors in bashing, Such as strength/int differences,weapon stats.

    A Knight with Longswords is going to have a bad time compared to rapiers. (Assuming same range of stats)

    Plus personally I don't find it fair for x class to be nerfed into the ground because at +3 strength artie and lv3 Class artie making it dominate when the people who don't want do drop 3600 credits into the game at the start can't pull anything.

    I bash in Thyr (more critical chance) or Arash. Mir is for tanking 3+ mob rooms.

    This is a little old but

    Eld said:
    So I got curious about the effect of crits in translating from straight DPS to average time required to kill a thing. Caladbolg's statement above seems to be true, at least up to a point: at the low damage/high speed end, getting slower and stronger hurts up to a point, and then starts getting better again. It's all very dependent on crit rate, of course (faster attacks being more favoured at higher crit rates), and I suspect dependent enough on your damage rate compared to the health of the mob you're fighting to make it difficult to make blanket statements. Some numbers, though, spoilered to spare those who don't care:

    Assuming a denizen with 10000  max health, with a crit rate of 20% (~level 84):

    250 damage at 1.00 seconds per attack: base DPS 250.00
    30.39 +/- 0.14 seconds per kill

    500 damage at 2.00 seconds per attack: base DPS 250.00
    31.15 +/- 0.16 seconds per kill

    750 damage at 3.00 seconds per attack: base DPS 250.00
    33.07 +/- 0.19 seconds per kill

    1000 damage at 4.00 seconds per attack: base DPS 250.00
    32.02 +/- 0.20 seconds per kill

    1250 damage at 5.00 seconds per attack: base DPS 250.00
    31.91 +/- 0.22 seconds per kill

    1500 damage at 6.00 seconds per attack: base DPS 250.00
    33.81 +/- 0.23 seconds per kill

    1750 damage at 7.00 seconds per attack: base DPS 250.00
    34.38 +/- 0.24 seconds per kill

    2000 damage at 8.00 seconds per attack: base DPS 250.00
    33.01 +/- 0.24 seconds per kill

    Same setup, but a crit rate of 42.5% (dragon with L1 pendant):

    250 damage at 1.00 seconds per attack: base DPS 250.00
    17.17 +/- 0.20 seconds per kill

    500 damage at 2.00 seconds per attack: base DPS 250.00
    18.96 +/- 0.23 seconds per kill

    750 damage at 3.00 seconds per attack: base DPS 250.00
    21.08 +/- 0.26 seconds per kill

    1000 damage at 4.00 seconds per attack: base DPS 250.00
    21.34 +/- 0.26 seconds per kill

    1250 damage at 5.00 seconds per attack: base DPS 250.00
    21.78 +/- 0.28 seconds per kill

    1500 damage at 6.00 seconds per attack: base DPS 250.00
    24.38 +/- 0.29 seconds per kill

    1750 damage at 7.00 seconds per attack: base DPS 250.00
    25.80 +/- 0.29 seconds per kill

    2000 damage at 8.00 seconds per attack: base DPS 250.00
    24.85 +/- 0.29 seconds per kill


    Applied specifically to the blademaster stance question, this effect isn't large enough to make up for the difference in DPS between Thyr and Sanya, though at high levels and high damage the difference isn't nearly as large:

    10000 health denizen, 20% crit 

    No band, Thyr, 12 str
    358 damage at 2.03 seconds per attack: base DPS 176.35
    43.78 +/- 0.20 seconds per kill

    No band, Sanya, 12 str
    450 damage at 2.24 seconds per attack: base DPS 200.89
    39.88 +/- 0.20 seconds per kill

    L3 band, Thyr, 12 str
    427 damage at 1.73 seconds per attack: base DPS 246.82
    32.01 +/- 0.17 seconds per kill

    L3 band, Sanya, 12 str
    519 damage at 1.92 seconds per attack: base DPS 270.31
    29.94 +/- 0.16 seconds per kill

    No band, Thyr, 14 str
    403 damage at 2.03 seconds per attack: base DPS 198.52
    39.14 +/- 0.19 seconds per kill

    No band, Sanya, 14 str
    507 damage at 2.24 seconds per attack: base DPS 226.34
    34.72 +/- 0.19 seconds per kill

    L3 band, Thyr, 14 str
    481 damage at 1.73 seconds per attack: base DPS 278.03
    28.05 +/- 0.15 seconds per kill

    L3 band, Sanya, 14 str
    584 damage at 1.92 seconds per attack: base DPS 304.17
    26.83 +/- 0.15 seconds per kill

    10000 health denizen, 42.5% crit rate

    No band, Thyr, 12 str
    358 damage at 2.03 seconds per attack: base DPS 176.35
    25.73 +/- 0.31 seconds per kill

    No band, Sanya, 12 str
    450 damage at 2.24 seconds per attack: base DPS 200.89
    23.48 +/- 0.29 seconds per kill

    L3 band, Thyr, 12 str
    427 damage at 1.73 seconds per attack: base DPS 246.82
    19.38 +/- 0.23 seconds per kill

    L3 band, Sanya, 12 str
    519 damage at 1.92 seconds per attack: base DPS 270.31
    18.28 +/- 0.22 seconds per kill

    No band, Thyr, 14 str
    403 damage at 2.03 seconds per attack: base DPS 198.52
    22.84 +/- 0.28 seconds per kill

    No band, Sanya, 14 str
    507 damage at 2.24 seconds per attack: base DPS 226.34
    21.23 +/- 0.25 seconds per kill

    L3 band, Thyr, 14 str
    481 damage at 1.73 seconds per attack: base DPS 278.03
    17.21 +/- 0.21 seconds per kill

    L3 band, Sanya, 14 str
    584 damage at 1.92 seconds per attack: base DPS 304.17
    16.61 +/- 0.21 seconds per kill



  • CooperCooper IowaMember Posts: 4,764 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    I don't understand the huge variance in current bashing speed when the admin stated they wanted everyone to be +-5% of eachother.


    RangorSherazad
  • AerekAerek East Tennessee, USAMember Posts: 1,818 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    Is there a huge variance in actual DPS numbers, now? Or are you referring to the higher bashing speed of classes with more critical chances? Classes with multiple attacks (Knights, Bards, Monks, etc) are always going to bash faster on account of those criticals, even if their actual DPS is within range of everyone else. I don't really see a way to fix that unless you start modifying folks' critical chances according to their class.

    -- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
  • SenaSena Member Posts: 3,954 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    There is a huge variance in DPS numbers, primarily from artefacts (obviously) and classes that depend on weapon stats (even more obviously). Weapon-using classes (knights, bards, serpents) are generally far better than any others right now (not too hard to beat dragons even), with good weapons. Aside from those, things look pretty even.

    Weapons in their current form (until the weaponry rework, whenever that's coming) will probably be problematic no matter what you do, if the goal is to make all classes have similar DPS. You can either make common weapons decent and awesome weapons overpowered, or make awesome weapons good and common weapons crappy, or make stats have such a small impact that awesome weapons are only a bit better than common weapons, all of which are problematic.

  • AerekAerek East Tennessee, USAMember Posts: 1,818 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    I see. What's the general average across the board? (I haven't been reading avidly, so don't know if a table of new attacks/DPS has been posted.) As long as the variance isn't outlandishly huge, I actually don't see a terrible problem with the weapon users having an edge with awesome weapons, not because I am one, but for the simple reason that they have to shell out for them. Blademasters and Monks pay nothing for their attacks, where as Serpents, Bards, or Knights often pay 50-100k for high-end weapons. If the variance is ungodly, then I agree it could be reigned in, (My bashing does feel too good to be true at present) but on account of the resources we have to sink to get those weapons, I don't think some manner of edge or advantage is completely unwarranted.

    -- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
  • SynbiosSynbios Member Posts: 4,561 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Cynlael said:

    ANNOUNCE NEWS #4165                                     (07/16/2014 at 16:47)  
    From   : Mortori
    To     : Everyone
    Subject: Minor PvE Adjustments
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Just a couple of small tweaks to adjust some problems with PvE damage:

     - Fixed a bug that would occasionally cause non-doubleslash weapon attacks against denizens to do half damage.

     - The damage done to denizens by Burst in Shindo has been decreased to bring it in line with other secondary
    hunting attacks.

    Penned by My hand on the 7th of Chronos, in the year 659 AF.



    Aaaaaand, just like that, BM goes from one of the top classes, to being one of the absolute shittiest. Couldn't be more glad I stopped playing Cynlael. Shin burst already had one of the slowest balances of all attacks in the game.



    You know, you could...I don't know, direct some of that hate towards me. After all, I(and Sena, but mostly me) was mainly responsible for bringing to light Burst's previous OP bashing damage. I finally found a way to finally get humans to hate me!

    Now if only they will acknowledge it and finally rant against me.

  • SenaSena Member Posts: 3,954 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Aerek said:

    What's the general average across the board?

    It looks like the general idea is 150-ish base (trans, 12 str/int/dex, no arties or traits), 200-ish offensive-spec (16 str/int/dex with nimble/quick-witted), and 320-ish fully artied.

    Very rough DPS estimates for every class here. In addition to knight/bard/serpent being awesome with good weapon stats, jesters and priests are far above the average as well with their artefact weapons.

  • ValusValus TexasMember Posts: 55 ✭✭ - Stalwart

    Does Sentinal's jaguar morph with reflexes still do good damage or did the new update changed that?

    I have Cerebral Palsy, so it'll take me a bit to learn things so please try to be patient with me.

  • SenaSena Member Posts: 3,954 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Valus said:

    Does Sentinal's jaguar morph with reflexes still do good damage or did the new update changed that?

    You can see how it compares in the link I just posted. 10 of the 17 classes (not counting dragon) are roughly equal. Sentinel is one of those 10. The other 7 (knights/bard/serpent/jester/priest) are far better.

  • ValusValus TexasMember Posts: 55 ✭✭ - Stalwart

    what if I want to rp as a sentinel, should I decide to rp as a different class?

    I have Cerebral Palsy, so it'll take me a bit to learn things so please try to be patient with me.

  • SenaSena Member Posts: 3,954 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    If you want to RP a sentinel, sentinel is the best class for that. If maximising your bashing speed is more important to you, then changing class is a good idea (but since it's likely that there will be more changes, I wouldn't change class for bashing just yet).

    ValusErnamAepasHellen
  • ValusValus TexasMember Posts: 55 ✭✭ - Stalwart
    alright, thanks for the info again

    I have Cerebral Palsy, so it'll take me a bit to learn things so please try to be patient with me.

  • BorranBorran Member Posts: 845 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Time to dragonform and go fish on a boat again.


    Shirszae
  • AliathAliath Member Posts: 90 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished

    Shame about the reduction to dragon damage really, suspect that most at that level don't bash for experience, so prefer more damage over more experience

    Arador
  • DastanDastan Member Posts: 6

    Anyone else notice how bad shaman bashing has become?

    Willpower drain has become worse because you will need more curses to kill the denizen.

    Denizens shielding has become a pain. When they shield, I wait for them to hit me then I hit back. It usually takes them 2-3 shields before I can kill them. This without swiftcurse so bleed should do more damage.

    At level 70...it took me twice as much time to finish Qurnok as compared before and being left with 2K willpower out of 12K. This is with swiftcursing. But still..I am mythical philosophy with willpower regen artifact.

    @makarios Something has to be done. :(

    KayeilSenaUreel
  • AlzahnAlzahn Member Posts: 2

    Hi @Sena, with the bashing changes for serpent. What would you suggest?

    1. Upgrade lvl 1 crit to lvl 2.

    2. Buy a level 1 lash.

    3. Spend the credits somewhere else.

    Just debating whether  the recent changes plus the lvl 1 lash will outweigh the crit pendant.

    I'm CON spec dwarf at level 83.

    Appreciate your help. Thanks.

  • IsaiahIsaiah GeorgiaMember Posts: 136 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited August 2014
    Alzahn said:

    Hi @Sena, with the bashing changes for serpent. What would you suggest?

    1. Upgrade lvl 1 crit to lvl 2.

    2. Buy a level 1 lash.

    3. Spend the credits somewhere else.

    Just debating whether  the recent changes plus the lvl 1 lash will outweigh the crit pendant.

    I'm CON spec dwarf at level 83.

    Appreciate your help. Thanks.

    My vote, use credits to respec race/traits for Dex and upgrade crit pendant


    Edit: its cheaper to buy con Artefacts then Dex ones.

    Eat like a caveman, train like a beast. Champions are not born, they are made. 

  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,276 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    You have to weigh the lost con (and therefore effective regen-per-second) against the speed increase you'll get from the dex. You may be able to kill faster, but stuff you could reliably kill before due to your increased buffer and health regeneration via sipping/moss from the extra con may no longer be within your realm to hunt safely.

    At level 83 though, you should be alright to go full dex. Just don't expect to in-room tank Sidhe or anything like that.

  • UreelUreel Member Posts: 50 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Dastan said:

    Anyone else notice how bad shaman bashing has become?

    Willpower drain has become worse because you will need more curses to kill the denizen.

    Denizens shielding has become a pain. When they shield, I wait for them to hit me then I hit back. It usually takes them 2-3 shields before I can kill them. This without swiftcurse so bleed should do more damage.

    At level 70...it took me twice as much time to finish Qurnok as compared before and being left with 2K willpower out of 12K. This is with swiftcursing. But still..I am mythical philosophy with willpower regen artifact.

    @makarios Something has to be done. :(


    Join the club. Bm bashing is stupidly horrible too. 16 drawslashes to kill a tiny mhun guard. 29 to kill a keeper! Sorry, admin, but that is insane. There's no way I'm going to spend the money to change class when I haven't been a bm that long to begin with. So, bashing is currently a no go in this mud until (if) they change things. Can't properly advance/earn gold/anything really without bashing. You admin are essentially making playing your game a chore, when it should be entertainment. 

    Mishgul wanted Jesus to fix my banner. Neither of us could get it right :(


    PraxidesCrono
  • BluefBluef DelosMember Posts: 2,176 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I tried to follow some of the earlier posts about the effects of crits now that DPS has been balanced across classes, but I'll be honest I'm not sure I understand the impact fully. For example, I have a L2 crit pendant and I can sometimes get WORLD SHATTERING hits more than once on target, but no matter whether the hits are crits or not (and no matter the severity of the crits) I am not seeing any difference in the amount of time or overall hits it takes to kill anything while hunting. 

    Can someone break it down for me. I guess I'm wondering what good this L2 crit pendant is if it's still going to take me 15+ hits to kill every darn thing. Thanks in advance for your input. 

  • AntoniusAntonius Member Posts: 4,737 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    @Bluef: I'll let somebody more qualified than I am explain exactly how crits affect things now; the best I could do is say that more crits, and particularly more powerful crits, should translate to considerably faster hunting. However, if you can actually verify that crits (even the most powerful ones) aren't noticeably affecting the number of hits needed to kill a target, it might be worth filing a bug - possibly crits aren't functioning properly for Shaman (assuming you haven't changed class)?

    TharvisBluef
  • JacenJacen Member Posts: 2,304 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    you can probe for denizen health now, so it'd be easy to see the effects of your crits

    image
  • SuladanSuladan Member Posts: 193 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished

    Crits definitely do affect denizen health correctly. What's probably happening to you happens to us all - you get the WORLD-SHATTERING when the mob is already down to 5% anyway, so a normal hit would do just as well. When you start off with it is when you notice the difference.

    The Truths hurt. Always.
    Shirszae
  • BluefBluef DelosMember Posts: 2,176 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    My overall crit rate as a shaman with a L2 pendant is the same as it ever was (42-44%), so I'm critting consistently throughout and not just at the end. What doesn't make any sense to me is that even when I'm hitting back to back world-shattering or annihilating crits, it still takes exactly the same amount of additional hits to kill targets. For example:

    Yesterday I was hunting pirates. It consistently took me 15 hits to kill a regular no-named pirate. It didn't seem to matter whether I had two world-shattering hits and a handful of crushing crits or if I had just 3-4 regular crits in the mix (or none at all), the count to kill the darn thing was consistently 15 hits. 

    That felt off to me so I thought I'd ask y'all before bugging it. 




    Tharvis
  • TharvisTharvis The Land of Beer and Chocolate!Member Posts: 3,107 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Bluef said:

    My overall crit rate as a shaman with a L2 pendant is the same as it ever was (42-44%), so I'm critting consistently throughout and not just at the end. What doesn't make any sense to me is that even when I'm hitting back to back world-shattering or annihilating crits, it still takes exactly the same amount of additional hits to kill targets. For example:

    Yesterday I was hunting pirates. It consistently took me 15 hits to kill a regular no-named pirate. It didn't seem to matter whether I had two world-shattering hits and a handful of crushing crits or if I had just 3-4 regular crits in the mix (or none at all), the count to kill the darn thing was consistently 15 hits. 

    That felt off to me so I thought I'd ask y'all before bugging it. 




    yeah that sounds a bit.. wrong. File a bug report about it I suppose, knowing that team, it'll be fixed in literally no time at all

    Aurora says, "Tharvis, why are you always breaking things?!"
    Artemis says, "You are so high maintenance, Tharvis, gosh."
    Tecton says, "It's still your fault, Tharvis."

    TraelorBluef
  • SenaSena Member Posts: 3,954 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    If a denizen takes 15 normal hits to kill, and it ever survives a world-shattering critical (or even annihilatingly powerful), either something is wrong or the denizen is somehow special and resists crits (I've never heard of a denizen like that, only denizens that you can't crit at all). A world-shattering critical simply multiplies the damage of that attack by 32 (so it's the same as 32 normal hits at once), annihilating is 16x. It could be higher than that if you have the Aim To Kill trait, but I can't think of any situation where it would be lower.
    Alzahn said:
    Hi @Sena, with the bashing changes for serpent. What would you suggest?
    A level 1 lash isn't worth it, you can get a forged whip with similar or better stats. Saving up for a level 2 lash might be a good idea, or if you have a free reincarnation and trait reset, you could switch to dex spec and get tanking artefacts to make up for the lost con (I'm not sure how many credits you have to work with, but SoA would probably be a good first choice for that). The upgraded crit pendant would be useful, but I think there are probably better ways to spend 400 credits.
  • BluefBluef DelosMember Posts: 2,176 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    I'm not sure if Someone read this thread or what but my crits are back!!! This probably belongs in Raves but I just had to share here too since it's where I OP. Thank you to the powers that be!

    TharvisTraelor
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