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New Bashing Changes!

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  • TectonTecton The Garden of the GodsAdministrator Posts: 2,507 Admin
    Re: Dragons being "behind" on bashing: The goal is that they are still the best out there in most cases. There are situations where fully artied-out lesserform classes might beat them, but that should be the exception, not the rule. There might be a bug there somewhere, we're keeping a close eye on things, and we'll make changes so this is the case.

    Tyamat
  • SarapisSarapis Member, Administrator Posts: 3,398 Achaean staff
    @Sarapis said:

    The fact that Dragons were able to generate gold and Talisman pieces so easily was completely unbalancing to anyone who wasn't a Dragon.

    In what way? How did it effect non-dragons? They should certainly not be able to keep on par with a dragon. It's a dragon! It's a greater form! I'm curious to hear the answer.

    Because in anything in which there is any economic competition, the party that can generate more wealth has a huge advantage. This isn't a single-player game.

    PraxidesTyamatMorro
  • SarapisSarapis Member, Administrator Posts: 3,398 Achaean staff

    Halios said:
      However, it feels a little raw from a player perspective because it really does just feel like a nerf to earning credits ingame, instead of the claims about balancing.

    Gotta be honest - I don't know what you're referring to. 

    You realize that players decide what prices players sell credits to each other, right? I mean, we don't dictate that, at all, ever.

    OrzaansynYaePraxidesTyamat
  • KayeilKayeil Washington StateMember Posts: 2,824 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    Dragon is meant to be a reward. One that technically anyone can achieve with the proper effort and discipline, whether it takes them 3 in game years or 300. We're all basically equally capable (exceptions might apply in some cases) of reaching dragon, and those who choose not to reach that goal are responsible for not having the rewards that come with being a dragon. Those of us who are dragon are basically on an even level, arties aside, and many stop hunting regularly. The full experience is nice, but it's not that great. Once you reach a certain level experience doesn't mean as much unless you have a certain rank you want to obtain like passing up Seragorn.

    Also, shaman hunting nerf hurts. Not only are we at less of an advantage when it comes to runelore compared to the runewardens (although I think this could be sorted easily), and vodun isn't that valuable to combat against those with server-side due to it catching illusions, but now our hunting is going to hurt more because of the willpower drain, and even less damage when we didn't hurt that much to begin with, and we are a bit squishy when it comes to tanking damage.

    What doesn't kill you gives you exp.

    SaevaBluef
  • CaladbolgCaladbolg Campbell County TNMember Posts: 1,126 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean

     Tecton said:

    Re: Dragons being "behind" on bashing: The goal is that they are still the best out there in most cases. There are situations where fully artied-out lesserform classes might beat them, but that should be the exception, not the rule. There might be a bug there somewhere, we're keeping a close eye on things, and we'll make changes so this is the case.

    After testing Dragon damage is way over nerfed, the highest dps I got out of Veldrin was about 211 while level 3 mace priest came up to about 380 dps. I'm going to assume bug.

    While I personally I do think that dragon damage should be a little lower than other classes to make up for the extreme tankyness it comes with.. half the damage seems a bit much.

    For instance a world shattering crit 32x From the numbers I pulled off Falcon testing.

    Gut would hit for 20288 hp while staffcast (fully artied magi) 32352

    I think this is actually a pretty good example since both skills use about the same balance/equib

    That's throwing artied magi damage more than 1/3rd over Dragon.

    Which leads me to believe after you say "that they are still the best out there in most cases" meaning this is a bug, or your considering the tankyness of Dragon along with the damage it does.

    Would be nice for clarification on this matter though.

    Utianima
  • BluefBluef DelosMember Posts: 2,176 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Sarapis said:

    Dragon PvE was way too overpowered previously. It definitely needed nerfing. The fact that Dragons were able to generate gold and Talisman pieces so easily was completely unbalancing to anyone who wasn't a Dragon. We'll mess around with finding ways to adjust Dragons to have advantages in <X> and <Y> circumstances that normal classes don't have, such that they can be more efficient at bashing if properly used, but we're definitely not going to put Dragons back to the mudflation-inducing levels they were previously at. They were way too overpowered previously.

    I realize that some dragons consistently hunt in ways that might result in the view that the class was "mudflation inducing," but that's not every dragon. There's no way that the amount of gold I was bringing in hunting as dragon in any way inflated the economy of Achaea. Punishing the entire class by making dragon hunting weaker because some people hunt like mindless robots for 15 hours a day to grab mad gold seems a little off. 

  • JarrodJarrod Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 3,060 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited July 2014

    If all classes are brought down in terms of gold generation, dragons won't be spam-buying credits at CFS prices because they have insane gold income. Prices will drop as people have less gold to throw at CFS. Bashing will eventually generate a similar amount of credits via gold as it did before the change. The process takes time.

    Halios said:
    Nerfing dragon like this, -after- several instances of nerfing gold drop rates/scaling makes it seem like you're attempting to curb the amount of gold (i.e. gold -> credits -> artefacts) people are earning ingame via this process, not that you're trying to "make it fair" for non-dragons.

    This assumes that 1. Credits purchased via money will decrease due to this change (unlikely, mostly unrelated, might actually increase due to more worthwhile arties for lesserform bashing) and 2. CFS prices will not change (as explained above, that's not how economics works).

    Both are incorrect assumptions, and your point is pretty illogical.

    Bluef said:
    Sarapis said:

    Dragon PvE was way too overpowered previously. It definitely needed nerfing. The fact that Dragons were able to generate gold and Talisman pieces so easily was completely unbalancing to anyone who wasn't a Dragon. We'll mess around with finding ways to adjust Dragons to have advantages in <X> and <Y> circumstances that normal classes don't have, such that they can be more efficient at bashing if properly used, but we're definitely not going to put Dragons back to the mudflation-inducing levels they were previously at. They were way too overpowered previously.

    I realize that some dragons consistently hunt in ways that might result in the view that the class was "mudflation inducing," but that's not every dragon. There's no way that the amount of gold I was bringing in hunting as dragon in any way inflated the economy of Achaea. Punishing the entire class by making dragon hunting weaker because some people hunt like mindless robots for 15 hours a day to grab mad gold seems a little off.

    You will still generate the same proportional gold as before. I can't even understand the logic here, the gold income is looked at as a whole, not an individual basis.

    image
    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

    ShunsuiHeroseFlorentinoPrimrose
  • VeldrinVeldrin DenmarkMember Posts: 402 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    the fact that Dragons can't be affected by major traits already made them lackluster compared to lesserform, since they have had reduced sips since traits was implemented. That meant that Dragons was only viable in a very few specific instances and now you're taking away the only real advantage they had over lesserforms?

    As it is now, the only reason I got to use Dragonform for is gare. All my damage is higher than Dragon and my ability to recover health/prevent damage beats Dragon (And it was already 50/50 before these damage changes).

    Blast was a static 1000 damage with a 5 second timer (3 sec eq + 2 sec summoning breath), now it does 600
    Gut now does 634 compared to it's 1091 before (20 str)
    Incantation was at 1245 with level 3 sash/collar and now it's 711

    Staffcast before at 19 int with level 3 collar? 758

    So basically, Dragon is now less than old Magi for bashing and that's even without the greater health recovery of the lesserform classes

    image
  • SarapisSarapis Member, Administrator Posts: 3,398 Achaean staff
    Saeva said:

    I don't want to make enemies with the Logos.. but it really, honestly feels like an IG credit source cock block. And that's pretty much all it feels like.

    No offense, but I have no idea where you're drawing that conclusion from, and you've not explained your reasoning at all. There is literally nothing about this that I can see significantly changing the long-term price of credits on the credit market. If I end up being wrong about that, it's easy to spot and we'll adjust.

  • SarapisSarapis Member, Administrator Posts: 3,398 Achaean staff
    Caladbolg said:

     Tecton said:

    Re: Dragons being "behind" on bashing: The goal is that they are still the best out there in most cases. There are situations where fully artied-out lesserform classes might beat them, but that should be the exception, not the rule. There might be a bug there somewhere, we're keeping a close eye on things, and we'll make changes so this is the case.

    After testing Dragon damage is way over nerfed, the highest dps I got out of Veldrin was about 211 while level 3 mace priest came up to about 380 dps. I'm going to assume bug.

    While I personally I do think that dragon damage should be a little lower than other classes to make up for the extreme tankyness it comes with.. half the damage seems a bit much.

    For instance a world shattering crit 32x From the numbers I pulled off Falcon testing.

    Gut would hit for 20288 hp while staffcast (fully artied magi) 32352

    I think this is actually a pretty good example since both skills use about the same balance/equib

    That's throwing artied magi damage more than 1/3rd over Dragon.

    Which leads me to believe after you say "that they are still the best out there in most cases" meaning this is a bug, or your considering the tankyness of Dragon along with the damage it does.

    Would be nice for clarification on this matter though.

    Certainly possible there are bugs. New system. The amount of melodrama from other people (notably not you) is pretty ridiculous though. Calm down, people.
  • BluefBluef DelosMember Posts: 2,176 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Tecton said:
    Re: Dragons being "behind" on bashing: The goal is that they are still the best out there in most cases. There are situations where fully artied-out lesserform classes might beat them, but that should be the exception, not the rule. There might be a bug there somewhere, we're keeping a close eye on things, and we'll make changes so this is the case.

    I'm not fully artied (maybe semi-artied) and I can tell you that hands down my lesserform beats my dragonform. Dragon is so slow and weak now that I can't imagine ever bashing in it again unless I'm in a group trying to take down a honours mob. 

  • BluefBluef DelosMember Posts: 2,176 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    Sarapis said:
    @Sarapis said:

    The fact that Dragons were able to generate gold and Talisman pieces so easily was completely unbalancing to anyone who wasn't a Dragon.

    In what way? How did it effect non-dragons? They should certainly not be able to keep on par with a dragon. It's a dragon! It's a greater form! I'm curious to hear the answer.

    Because in anything in which there is any economic competition, the party that can generate more wealth has a huge advantage. This isn't a single-player game.

    Haven't the players who worked to achieve dragon earned that advantage though? 

  • MelodieMelodie Port Saint Lucie, FloridaMember Posts: 4,949 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Most of us aren't being melodramatic, just... you know, worried/disappointed. That should be pretty expected when you make something that takes considerable amounts of hours to obtain, less great. If there was some sort of "yes we understand dragon is not nearly what it was, and we intend to make up for it in other avenues", people would be a lot more calm, I think. For me personally, it's just kind of another disappointment on top of others. Not trying to be dramatic here, just expressing my thoughts.

    "You have had an extraordinary adventure, my dear. Extraordinary! One that few people could ever imagine. Treasure it. Keep it safe and secure, tucked away in some special place in your heart. 

    But... don't spend the rest of your days chasing a ghost."
    BluefShirszaeSherazadUtianima
  • SarapisSarapis Member, Administrator Posts: 3,398 Achaean staff
    edited July 2014

    I have no idea what 'earned' has to do with it because it's such an arbitrary concept. You may as well opine that people who are awesome at PK have earned the right to automatically be better at PK. Dragons have earned the right to be Dragons, but what being a Dragon means is defined by us. 

    Dragons get literally an entire skillset (they didn't used to) that lets them do things like get an ability that lets you effectively teleport across the world. Take a look at what you'd have to pay us to do artefacts that do the same thing (hint: you actually can't pay us to do it without spending a lot of money.)

    As with everything we do, it's expected that we'll adjust the numbers involved as we see how players experience the work we do.

    UtianimaFendo
  • CarmellCarmell Eastern WashingtonMember Posts: 473 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    I tried bashing in my lesserform in places I normally bash in my dragon form and well let's just say that I suck at bashing in my lesserform anymore.  10 denizens hitting hurts a lot!
    Melodie
  • SaevaSaeva Member Posts: 1,939 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited July 2014

    Sarapis said:
    Saeva said:

    I don't want to make enemies with the Logos.. but it really, honestly feels like an IG credit source cock block. And that's pretty much all it feels like.

    No offense, but I have no idea where you're drawing that conclusion from, and you've not explained your reasoning at all. There is literally nothing about this that I can see significantly changing the long-term price of credits on the credit market. If I end up being wrong about that, it's easy to spot and we'll adjust.

    You have made it clear that for some reason dragons bringing in more gold than others is a problem. But you haven't said why. The only reason I am seeing as to why it would be bad for dragons to be bringing in more gold than others, is that they can buy more credits accessibly if they hunt harder. Because really.... what are they going to spend that gold on with the exception of say... ships, shops or licenses? And if they do, who cares?  What could gold income hinder or enhance ultimately? CFS. That's why I'm drawing that conclusion. I don't think it's a difficult conclusion to jump to either.


    This is the quote I'm referencing yet again.
    @Sarapis said: The fact that Dragons were able to generate gold and Talisman pieces so easily was completely unbalancing to anyone who wasn't a Dragon.


    Bluef
  • MithridatesMithridates Member Posts: 1,956 @ - Epic Achaean
    As a fully-artied mage I could not tank a DK, while as a lvl1 con belt'd dragon I could easily tank one.  

  • SarapisSarapis Member, Administrator Posts: 3,398 Achaean staff
    edited July 2014

    @Saeva Because the ability of some players to generate outsized amounts of gold compared to newbies makes newbies inherently poor, and that problem gets worse the larger the disparity gets.

    If Dragons can generate more gold, and they want to sell that gold for credits, then the supply of gold is increased and the value of gold will drop. So, those people have to sell more gold to get the same amount of credits, and it's just a wash. Econ 101.

    SaevaAegoth
  • MithridatesMithridates Member Posts: 1,956 @ - Epic Achaean

    I am the one percent. 

  • BluefBluef DelosMember Posts: 2,176 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited July 2014
    Sarapis said:

    I have no idea what 'earned' has to do with it because it's such an arbitrary concept. You may as well opine that people who are awesome at PK have earned the right to automatically be better at PK. Dragons have earned the right to be Dragons, but what being a Dragon means is defined by us. 

    Dragons get literally an entire skillset (they didn't used to) that lets them do things like get an ability that lets you effectively teleport across the world. Take a look at what you'd have to pay us to do artefacts that do the same thing (hint: you actually can't pay us to do it without spending a lot of money.)

    As with everything we do, it's expected that we'll adjust the numbers involved as we see how players experience the work we do.

    PK and Dragons are really apples and oranges. I'd also argue that someone who is awesome at PK in Achaea has earned certain rights and privileges that other players can't access (ie, a different form of consistent experience gain and often membership in the Achaean Combat Council, which may in fact help make their PK better than others through the information and interactions they have access to).

    Teleporting across the world might be slightly faster than using wings, a vibrating stick, or speed walking but honestly for the time it takes to dragonform and then travel that route I might as well hoof it - and I do. About the only real advantage is when traveling to Ulangi because you don't have to pay the initial ferry. Maybe if there were more Gare exits this would be a more significant class advantage. 

    I was playing long before dragon class skills came out, so I recognize that what Dragon means is defined by the Garden. I also acknowledge that you may be tweaking things as you go along. But at this point I don't see any significant reason right now for my other characters or anyone else to invest time in bashing to dragon (or beyond 90 for that matter) or, conversely, using dragon for bashing. I hope that changes. 

    ErnamCronoValariaKarai
  • MithridatesMithridates Member Posts: 1,956 @ - Epic Achaean

    Also your economic model is wrong.  Rampant inflation will continue until there is a finite amount of gold, or denizens stop dropping gold.  As long as there is an unlimited supply of currency, inflation continues (which perfectly describes the selling of gold for credits/selling more gold for the same amount of credits) so in theory you're literally doing nothing to stop text inflation.  Of course, I could be wrong but pretty sure this isn't going to do anything to make credits easier to purchase for novices or non-dragons.  

    BluefZukoSaevaValaria
  • NimNim Member Posts: 2,015 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    I for one like that dragons have been put in line with other classes, partially because I didn't really want to be one anyway, so now if I reach level 99 I have more excuses to never actually grow scales (even if blademaster hunting got nerfed, it's still insanely awesome to be able to fall back on Shindo to blast things to death! way cooler than being some giant lizard!), but also because man dragon gold was absurd.

  • SarapisSarapis Member, Administrator Posts: 3,398 Achaean staff

    @Nim Oh, our intention isn't to put Dragons in line with other classes for PvE. We do want them to be better for PvE, just with less of a delta between non-Dragons and Dragons than previously. I think all of us on the admin side agree that hitting Dragon should be a PvE reward, though the former reward in terms of ability to full-out kill things was just too high compared to what was intended.


  • CarmellCarmell Eastern WashingtonMember Posts: 473 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent

    Did you take artefacts into account on that.  Those artied out dragons hurt like a mother but what about us poorer dragons.  Yes we do exist.  I'm lucky half the time if I have 30k gold on me.

    BluefValaria
  • ZukoZuko Member Posts: 730 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited July 2014
    @Sarapis What about either A.) When you obtain the full spectrum of dragon colors through talismans (Elder dragon), you become as powerful as dragons were before and talismans cease to drop when hunting in dragonform?

  • NellaundraNellaundra Member Posts: 1,556 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    The problem I'm seeing is that when you reach a certain point, if you know what you're doing, survival isn't the issue. It's "how fast can I kill these dudes" which dragons used to excel at, along with general surviving. Now though? Apparently in the bottom half for bashing, since several other classes have better survivability -and- damage than dragon. And gare isn't that useful. I personally walk/ship everywhere, and it doesn't take that long.

    image
    BluefCronoValaria
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