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New Bashing Changes!

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  • ZukoZuko Member Posts: 730 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    @Tecton is it safe to switch to a class for better bashing, or are more nerfs/buffs to PVE damage on the way for some classes that haven't panned out as expected with the new changes? Or in other words, would I risk switching to one of the better bashing classes now, and then it might get nerffed, therefore no good reason for the switch. 

    I was looking to class change anyway upon reaching dragon, but that was while monk was good for bashing there not its not as relevant in my decision. 
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,288 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    BASED MORTORI, ALL HAIL.

    SAVIOR OF PRIEST, BUFFER OF MACES.

    MelodiePraxidesHalos
  • MelodieMelodie Port Saint Lucie, FloridaMember Posts: 5,108 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Won't lie, I am itching to test priest changes. Urgh. :(

  • TectonTecton The Garden of the GodsAdministrator Posts: 2,507 Admin
    Zuko said:
    @Tecton is it safe to switch to a class for better bashing, or are more nerfs/buffs to PVE damage on the way for some classes that haven't panned out as expected with the new changes? Or in other words, would I risk switching to one of the better bashing classes now, and then it might get nerffed, therefore no good reason for the switch. 

    I was looking to class change anyway upon reaching dragon, but that was while monk was good for bashing there not its not as relevant in my decision. 

    We're pretty happy with the way things look at a base level, there may be some tweaks to some of the scaling of things beyond those figures. Time will tell!

    Zuko
  • MelodieMelodie Port Saint Lucie, FloridaMember Posts: 5,108 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Rom said:

    I completely understand bringing classes in line for bashing towards Dragon and such, so you get a lot less newbies pleading to know which class is best and getting shuffled into the Monk life. I like it a lot!. Helps a lot for the newbie experience, feeling less weak and more constant gratification from leveling, alongside letting established players feel as useful as they should. Just not sure why making Dragon weak was a part of their plans at all, it's something only invested players reach and I don't think Dragons clearing bashing spots too fast was ever a big enough issue to almost halve their output.


    Very much agreed. Overall I am definitely behind most of these changes. Dragon just feels like the redheaded stepchild at the moment. I'm hoping that won't remain the case.

    Kerria
  • TanaeTanae Member Posts: 29
    @tecton can we please get a free class change/reincarnation? I can't afford to lose 1000 of my 2000 lessons. I'll have no skills!

    Crixos
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,288 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Unless the speed decrease equates to a 50% loss in DPS, Dragon will still likely have some of the highest xp per hour now that the xp reduction is gone by virtue of being able to reliably fight extremely difficult denizens with relative ease.

    Removing that was a huge deal, I hope people realize.

    KlendathuArador
  • KresslackKresslack Florida, United StatesMember Posts: 6,312 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    It made sense for dragons to be that big and bad, PvE wise. PvP wise, outside of group combat, they seemed manageable. But not this seems to take away a good portion of the incentive with working towards dragon to begin with. I don't know, not a dragon, might never be, but certainly asking myself if it's even worth it now as anything other than an accolade and higher health pool.



    CronoSeftin
  • NellaundraNellaundra Member Posts: 1,556 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    My goal to reach dragon was pretty much solely because of the credits I'd get along the way, and the gold. If I bother to keep pushing to it, Monk will probably be the better bashing option because of how many 'oh shit' buttons it has, and it has comparative tankiness. I do like the general changes, but yeah, I think 95% of dragons were fine with the half xp they got (or would be fine with an even heavier cut) if they kept their raw damage/tankiness combined.

    image
    Karai
  • CaladbolgCaladbolg Campbell County TNMember Posts: 1,126 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Melodie said:
    Won't lie, I am itching to test priest changes. Urgh. :(

    and how would Laurette feel about this?

  • NellaundraNellaundra Member Posts: 1,556 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    She'd heal the itchiness, of course.

    image
  • HaliosHalios Member Posts: 471 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    I hope these aren't the only changes coming, and/or are more of a live test than solid adjustments, because while some of them hit the mark, a lot of the things being done seem extremely strange in the vacuum of this announce post, especially the dragon changes.

    Kayeil
  • SenaSena Member Posts: 3,957 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    I find it very amusing that dragons are worse than classless in terms of bashing damage (presumably this is a bug, but it's amusing nonetheless).

    Seftin
  • VeldrinVeldrin DenmarkMember Posts: 433 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent

    why am I not surprised? Stupid change is stupid for Dragons

    image
    Ernam
  • SarapisSarapis Member, Administrator Posts: 3,398 Achaean staff
    Zuko said:
    @Tecton is it safe to switch to a class for better bashing, or are more nerfs/buffs to PVE damage on the way for some classes that haven't panned out as expected with the new changes? Or in other words, would I risk switching to one of the better bashing classes now, and then it might get nerffed, therefore no good reason for the switch. 

    I was looking to class change anyway upon reaching dragon, but that was while monk was good for bashing there not its not as relevant in my decision. 

    No way to tell. We'll continue to make adjustments until we're happy with the results.

    RomTyamat
  • TreyTrey Member Posts: 4,800 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited July 2014
    Veldrin said:

    why am I not surprised? Stupid change is stupid for Dragons

     


    EDIT: In order to balance out my wordless expression of contempt with some actual feedback: Sure, dragons aren't ripping through shit like crazy now. You're still some of the most ridiculously tanky things to hunt as. Not all changes are bad. My blademaster's hunting is going to be a little slower, but this might actually be motivation to hunt as an Infernal again, knowing that I am more or less as effective as everyone else.

    SarapisShirszaeHalosMorro
  • OrzaansynOrzaansyn Member Posts: 663 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    Making things consistants by lowering nearly each class sounds strange to me.

    I wonder why the choice has not been to put everyone at the Monk level, and to make bashing less boring....

    image
    BluefSherazadUtianimaUreel
  • SilasSilas Member Posts: 2,549 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    So, @Sarapis, out of curiosity, what do you consider to be the appeal of dragon nowadays? Like, what reason would you put forth to make dragon an attractive goal with the recent changes?


    SaevaBluefSherazadValaria
  • SarapisSarapis Member, Administrator Posts: 3,398 Achaean staff

    Dragon PvE was way too overpowered previously. It definitely needed nerfing. The fact that Dragons were able to generate gold and Talisman pieces so easily was completely unbalancing to anyone who wasn't a Dragon. We'll mess around with finding ways to adjust Dragons to have advantages in <X> and <Y> circumstances that normal classes don't have, such that they can be more efficient at bashing if properly used, but we're definitely not going to put Dragons back to the mudflation-inducing levels they were previously at. They were way too overpowered previously.

  • MelodieMelodie Port Saint Lucie, FloridaMember Posts: 5,108 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited July 2014
    Sarapis said:

    Dragon PvE was way too overpowered previously. It definitely needed nerfing. The fact that Dragons were able to generate gold and Talisman pieces so easily was completely unbalancing to anyone who wasn't a Dragon. We'll mess around with finding ways to adjust Dragons to have advantages in <X> and <Y> circumstances that normal classes don't have, such that they can be more efficient at bashing if properly used, but we're definitely not going to put Dragons back to the mudflation-inducing levels they were previously at. They were way too overpowered previously.

    It was the carrot at the end of the stick. While I understand a lot of where you're coming from, I really hope you have some intent to still make it very interesting/rewarding, from all aspects. If you feel dragon is "fine" now, then... yeah, I don't think you're going to find very many people willing to spend the same amount of money to bash as well when the carrot kind of became mostly wilted and grew some funny-looking sprouts on it. "It's still nutritious!" you might say, but it's certainly still much less appealing.

    OrzaansynUtianimaValaria
  • VortokVortok Member Posts: 9 ✭✭ - Stalwart
    edited July 2014

    Seems to be mainly balanced around damage output, so looking at which classes have good defensive abilities will likely become the new 'what's the best bashing class' meta.  Ability to take a hit is quite important, but once your ability to survive the incoming damage is relatively assured (varies a lot based on class, level, and amount of artes) things quickly become rather focused on damage output.


    As Dragon is a bashing reward and I'm totally on board with it not being a PvP superpower.  It should, in my admittedly bias opinion, stay competitive with the top bashing classes in the PvE area though (and a decent amount of utility abilities is nice for flavor) so determining what factors make a class competitive in PvE is worth considering.  Defensively  Dragons are more or less just very sturdy with no fancy tools like Reflection, Transmute, or the like beyond Dragonheal for the affliction curing super lazy (most PvE doesn't throw out tons of afflictions because waaa, consumable cures cost money, blah blah).  So ability to tank something for a Dragon is generally pretty binary.

    As above there are times when someone's defensive ability is already sufficient in lesserform or Dragonform and the focus for determining efficiency quickly turns to offensive output.  Offensively, Dragons just have fairly standard attacks (akin to KICK, if we're honest) that aren't too fancy.  They don't have the sheer number of attacks like Shaman/Monk/Knight (or even a multi-target one like Stormhammer) so they aren't all that suited for a 'fishing for crits' style which scales with level, so low level players of those classes don't feel the benefit of 'many small hits' nearly as much as high level players - Dragon crit rates are fairly uniform, though.  Could add a crit multiplier like Alchemist, but I don't know if that's even needed or if it would even feel fitting.

    Technically there's also less artefacts to boost Dragon output than there is for other classes (is Incantation still inferior to Gut?), but that's a different matter.

    I personally don't feel a need for Dragon to blow everyone else out of the water in PvE, but I certainly don't want them to be lagging behind.  If someone has significant incentives to actively avoid Dragonform because it's less effective for them in PvE than staying lesser, it just feels a bit off.


    Finally, ditching the mildly irritating exp penalty is nice for those that still care about it post-Dragon (whether rankings, building a buffer, or whatever) - especially if their lesserform isn't overly tanky.  I think I heard, long ago, that the penalty also influenced how much was lost on death (aka, lost less exp if in Dragonform) but with the ability to build a huge, multi-level buffer, instead of being locked at 0% into 100, that's probably less of a concern these days (if the penalty influencing exp loss was still accurate).

    Ernam
  • SaevaSaeva Member Posts: 1,944 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    @Sarapis said:

    The fact that Dragons were able to generate gold and Talisman pieces so easily was completely unbalancing to anyone who wasn't a Dragon.

    In what way? How did it effect non-dragons? They should certainly not be able to keep on par with a dragon. It's a dragon! It's a greater form! I'm curious to hear the answer.


    BluefUtianimaValaria
  • HaliosHalios Member Posts: 471 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Sarapis said:

    Dragon PvE was way too overpowered previously. It definitely needed nerfing. The fact that Dragons were able to generate gold and Talisman pieces so easily was completely unbalancing to anyone who wasn't a Dragon. We'll mess around with finding ways to adjust Dragons to have advantages in <X> and <Y> circumstances that normal classes don't have, such that they can be more efficient at bashing if properly used, but we're definitely not going to put Dragons back to the mudflation-inducing levels they were previously at. They were way too overpowered previously.

    I'm not I really understand or appreciate the claims about "balance" in this context.

    What is balanced in your mind? 

    Honestly, this seems less of a "fairness to non-dragons" driven change and more of a curb to mudflation, which you mentioned later in your post. I get that having dragons be so efficient in bashing, combined with the modern landscape of gold potential from the introduction of many new bashing areas over time leads to "mudflation."  However, it feels a little raw from a player perspective because it really does just feel like a nerf to earning credits ingame, instead of the claims about balancing.

    SaevaUreelValariaKarai
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