House Renaissance

Lilian

No bad bad bad bad! The Mojushai were not, and should never be pacifist (We had pacifistic members yes, and that is okay. We taught that we accepted all forms of life within the hold.). The FOUNDER never intended for that to happen; He wanted a house where people trained in combat and used their skills to help out others in need, (Because we had the strength to do what others could not, and to not do it for glory or reward). Pacifism is a plague, truly and utterly, specially in a game that is MEANT to be about conflict.

"Walk with might, use it to assist others in need, and do not flaunt your actions."

I always tried to make that saying well known in the house, you don't need combat to follow it. But I felt that is what the Mojushai should truly embody. (That is a qoute from the founder.)

Jules

Hehe, I haven't lost my touch for provoking "passionate discussion" on the forums.  Ah well...

Nim

Pacifism is hard in a game where the primary means of advancing out of newbie status is violent mass murder, but the Mojushai approached the issue in a large variety of ways. I wish the issue had become more significant - house lectures were great but most were about one of three topics.

If I was less awful at everything, and Nim was less shy, and the house less quiet and its membership less scattered, having a wide palette of lectures was a definite goal.

I hope whatever house replaces the Mojushai has lectures/debates as standard requirements where most might defer to journal entries, and allows for some variety. That or the bard house gets a philosopher path.

Nim

Also, not to double post but I tried posting the below earlier and it failed :c

I have a question that I've had since Targossas's houses were planned: what happens if you want to do multiple things?

Houses are suddenly becoming playstyle-oriented. What should players do if their playstyle covers multiple houses (eg a warrior-scholar)? Would multi-house membership ever be considered an option in cases like this?

Mithridates

It's not like the Dawnblade doesn't have scholars or the Harbingers don't have fighters

Karai

@Jacen and I were discussing the Sect, and ideally it would have become a non-city, monastic House that accepted only three classes: Monk, Blademaster, and Magi. The Way of the Kharon/Lotus and the Seven Energies are substantial enough that it can stand on its own and would likely draw more people because those would be the focus rather than being stifled by the lack of willingness for conflict and trying to identify itself by relation to Hashan which still has a weak identity and no mission or goal to speak of (neutrality, mercantilism and freedom/democracy have never and will never work without some deeper cause). So I hope that if the Sect ends, it's done in a way that is respectful to its venerable roots.

This is the problem that Hashani Houses have in this renaissance, too. We still do not have a clear mission, goal, or ideology. The Great Work is too broad and allows for too much freedom which has caused apathy more than anything. So, while it's not normal or ideal to have Divine chime in and say 'this is what Hashan should have been,' that's precisely what Hashan needs and the hope is that in discussing the Houses, we'll get some sort of clue as to how Hashan fits in with the rest of Sapience. It's essentially working backwards, designing Hashan from its Houses and that tends to muddy the renaissance up a bit. Unless we scramble to come up with a lackluster identity in the short while we still have. This is why @Jacen is asking these questions, since we have to be more careful than the other cities so that we're not overlapping to the point of being unnecessary because Hashan is unnecessary and we are scrambling to make something unique or old but unique..

Aerek

That's probably something Hashan's leadership can bring up when it's their turn to get Renaissance'd. The Admin have stressed pretty heavily that this is a case-by-case thing, so if the leadership agrees, it may be possible to address Hashan as a whole alongside its houses in a 2-for-1 deal.

You do have 2 active patrons, and from the sound of recent months, They may be open to dropping another meteor on Hashan and starting over!

Edit: Doing this from a phone sucks.

Kotaru

The class limitations also caused a lot of people to avoid Houses because they didn't want to become a whole new class which wasn't what they enjoyed just so they could join the House they wanted to be part of, and there was a big drop in Ty Beirdd's population that never quite recovered after, for example. With 2/4 of Cyrene's Houses, having class limits is a really weird idea; bards (and after a fight, jesters) are not the sole source of creativity and art, as Scarlatti's order will attest to. And the list of classes dumped on the Mojushai are kinda weird. Monks, sure. Priests? Alright. Blademasters and Serpents? What? And nobody accepts Shamans, despite being a fully approved class in Cyrene now. At least Arcanists and Wardens have more of an argument for it.

So I think that giving the opportunity to join as whatever class they like (within city rules) will bring an influx of people into the Houses again, and they have the opportunity to be really inclusive and also just something new and fresh for people to forge, to get to be part of the history they could only look back upon distantly before.

Jukilian

Kind of off topic, but Hashan needs to officially become the City of Darkness already. Too many people treat the City as a City where you can do whatever, not be judged, have many freedoms, stay out of conflict, be neutral, etc.

No. It isn't the City of Freedom, it isn't the City of Neutrality.

/rant

Nim

Kotaru said:

And the list of classes dumped on the Mojushai are kinda weird. Monks, sure. Priests? Alright. Blademasters and Serpents? What? And nobody accepts Shamans, despite being a fully approved class in Cyrene now. At least Arcanists and Wardens have more of an argument for it.

So I think that giving the opportunity to join as whatever class they like (within city rules) will bring an influx of people into the Houses again, and they have the opportunity to be really inclusive and also just something new and fresh for people to forge, to get to be part of the history they could only look back upon distantly before.

Blademasters and serpents actually fit well enough with the Mojushai ideals, once you realize that the latter seem strange not just due to the house's ethos but Cyrene's as a whole.

Blademasters are historically philosopher-warriors, and although they could easily fit in with just about any Cyrenian house (they've got swords, elements, and a history of cool poetry), the fact that their final stance deals with mastering ones inner self to obtain tranquility through emptiness is a definite step along the path of monkish enlightenment.

Serpents, thanks to their stealth capabilities, are also exceptionally good at gathering information. Most people might aspire to use this to gather important political or strategic information, but using it to silently study other cultures and day-to-day things is not only easier but a very Mojushai thing to aim for.

Priests are actually the weird ones, mostly given the increasingly violent nature of Good. It's a strange world where the words Good and Benevolent can oppose one another, but they very well can. Although it is possible to believe that Good represents benevolence, but the same can be said for most any ideal, since most factions believe their ideals are correct and represent how the world should be - this single reference point and self-assured behavior strongly oppose Mojushai humility and their usual path to enlightenment (which, truly, speaks of just how thoroughly Cyrenian values have been stripped during the Shallam-to-Targossas transition).

At least that's how Nim teaches it, but I'm 100% sure she's at least as correct as any full house member.

Draqoom

Karai said:

blah blah blah ... So I hope that if the Sect ends, it's done in a way that is respectful to its venerable roots.

I will gladly snuff the House out in a way that is respectful to its roots

Trilliana

Nim said:

Kotaru said:

And the list of classes dumped on the Mojushai are kinda weird. Monks, sure. Priests? Alright. Blademasters and Serpents? What? And nobody accepts Shamans, despite being a fully approved class in Cyrene now. At least Arcanists and Wardens have more of an argument for it.

So I think that giving the opportunity to join as whatever class they like (within city rules) will bring an influx of people into the Houses again, and they have the opportunity to be really inclusive and also just something new and fresh for people to forge, to get to be part of the history they could only look back upon distantly before.

Blademasters and serpents actually fit well enough with the Mojushai ideals, once you realize that the latter seem strange not just due to the house's ethos but Cyrene's as a whole.

Blademasters are historically philosopher-warriors, and although they could easily fit in with just about any Cyrenian house (they've got swords, elements, and a history of cool poetry), the fact that their final stance deals with mastering ones inner self to obtain tranquility through emptiness is a definite step along the path of monkish enlightenment.

Serpents, thanks to their stealth capabilities, are also exceptionally good at gathering information. Most people might aspire to use this to gather important political or strategic information, but using it to silently study other cultures and day-to-day things is not only easier but a very Mojushai thing to aim for.

Priests are actually the weird ones, mostly given the increasingly violent nature of Good. It's a strange world where the words Good and Benevolent can oppose one another, but they very well can. Although it is possible to believe that Good represents benevolence, but the same can be said for most any ideal, since most factions believe their ideals are correct and represent how the world should be - this single reference point and self-assured behavior strongly oppose Mojushai humility and their usual path to enlightenment (which, truly, speaks of just how thoroughly Cyrenian values have been stripped during the Shallam-to-Targossas transition).

At least that's how Nim teaches it, but I'm 100% sure she's at least as correct as any full house member.

Interesting factoid, I know the former HL of the Kindred were trying to get Blademasters in the Kindred due to the Blademaster's ties to the elements.

Otherwise, spot-on.

Melodie

Nim said:

Kotaru said:

And the list of classes dumped on the Mojushai are kinda weird. Monks, sure. Priests? Alright. Blademasters and Serpents? What? And nobody accepts Shamans, despite being a fully approved class in Cyrene now. At least Arcanists and Wardens have more of an argument for it.

So I think that giving the opportunity to join as whatever class they like (within city rules) will bring an influx of people into the Houses again, and they have the opportunity to be really inclusive and also just something new and fresh for people to forge, to get to be part of the history they could only look back upon distantly before.

Blademasters and serpents actually fit well enough with the Mojushai ideals, once you realize that the latter seem strange not just due to the house's ethos but Cyrene's as a whole.

Blademasters are historically philosopher-warriors, and although they could easily fit in with just about any Cyrenian house (they've got swords, elements, and a history of cool poetry), the fact that their final stance deals with mastering ones inner self to obtain tranquility through emptiness is a definite step along the path of monkish enlightenment.

Serpents, thanks to their stealth capabilities, are also exceptionally good at gathering information. Most people might aspire to use this to gather important political or strategic information, but using it to silently study other cultures and day-to-day things is not only easier but a very Mojushai thing to aim for.

Priests are actually the weird ones, mostly given the increasingly violent nature of Good. It's a strange world where the words Good and Benevolent can oppose one another, but they very well can. Although it is possible to believe that Good represents benevolence, but the same can be said for most any ideal, since most factions believe their ideals are correct and represent how the world should be - this single reference point and self-assured behavior strongly oppose Mojushai humility and their usual path to enlightenment (which, truly, speaks of just how thoroughly Cyrenian values have been stripped during the Shallam-to-Targossas transition).

At least that's how Nim teaches it, but I'm 100% sure she's at least as correct as any full house member.

The bolded ended up being a major contributing factor as to why I left. Melodie's excommunication and subsequent education in Good really brought this problem to the surface for me, although I had been wondering about it already before then.

Also if it's true all Cyrene Houses are getting dissolved, that is both awesome and terrifying. I'm getting those "why the eff did I leave again?!" pangs over it (despite still being assured of a good choice once I think about it). I really, really hope you guys take these changes and do amazing things. Cyrene's fantastic, it just needed a shake-up, and I think this could be the start of it. Good luck!

Rangor

Melodie said:

Nim said:

Kotaru said:

And the list of classes dumped on the Mojushai are kinda weird. Monks, sure. Priests? Alright. Blademasters and Serpents? What? And nobody accepts Shamans, despite being a fully approved class in Cyrene now. At least Arcanists and Wardens have more of an argument for it.

So I think that giving the opportunity to join as whatever class they like (within city rules) will bring an influx of people into the Houses again, and they have the opportunity to be really inclusive and also just something new and fresh for people to forge, to get to be part of the history they could only look back upon distantly before.

Blademasters and serpents actually fit well enough with the Mojushai ideals, once you realize that the latter seem strange not just due to the house's ethos but Cyrene's as a whole.

Blademasters are historically philosopher-warriors, and although they could easily fit in with just about any Cyrenian house (they've got swords, elements, and a history of cool poetry), the fact that their final stance deals with mastering ones inner self to obtain tranquility through emptiness is a definite step along the path of monkish enlightenment.

Serpents, thanks to their stealth capabilities, are also exceptionally good at gathering information. Most people might aspire to use this to gather important political or strategic information, but using it to silently study other cultures and day-to-day things is not only easier but a very Mojushai thing to aim for.

Priests are actually the weird ones, mostly given the increasingly violent nature of Good. It's a strange world where the words Good and Benevolent can oppose one another, but they very well can. Although it is possible to believe that Good represents benevolence, but the same can be said for most any ideal, since most factions believe their ideals are correct and represent how the world should be - this single reference point and self-assured behavior strongly oppose Mojushai humility and their usual path to enlightenment (which, truly, speaks of just how thoroughly Cyrenian values have been stripped during the Shallam-to-Targossas transition).

At least that's how Nim teaches it, but I'm 100% sure she's at least as correct as any full house member.

The bolded ended up being a major contributing factor as to why I left. Melodie's excommunication and subsequent education in Good really brought this problem to the surface for me, although I had been wondering about it already before then.

Also if it's true all Cyrene Houses are getting dissolved, that is both awesome and terrifying. I'm getting those "why the eff did I leave again?!" pangs over it (despite still being assured of a good choice once I think about it). I really, really hope you guys take these changes and do amazing things. Cyrene's fantastic, it just needed a shake-up, and I think this could be the start of it. Good luck!

We can go visit their new houses when they have been made. We'll knock politely on the door, and when they come to open it we'll smash it in their faces before we march in and take a look around.

Korben

Regarding Hashan, I don't really see a role for the city itself in the broader scheme. Cyrene is already neutral-isolationist. Ideally, Hashan should be neutral-mercantile, but for that it'd need some resource the other factions couldn't take by force or get themselves, leading them to trade and negotiate with Hashan.

On the renaissance issue, I saw it coming a year ago. What I had to say then is what I have to say now.

It seems that Consolidation is the current theme in Achaea. When we traded Shallam for Targossas, the militant went to Targossas and everyone else went to wherever suited them best. Win-win.

We lost a bunch of Divine, and the people in small Orders / Orders with dormant Divine consolidated into fewer orders with more people in them. Again, win-win.

The Druids folded into Eleusis. More consolidation, and from the outside I'd say it looks like win-win as well.

I'd guess we have more consolidation on the road ahead and most of it will be directed at Houses. But coming out of the process, with fewer Houses (such that all of the ones left are 'active', whatever we mean by that), we are still going to need a new role for them to fill.

there are entirely too many Houses for the current playerbase, the playerbase is not going to grow by leaps and bounds any time soon because we have fewer newbies coming in, and once newbies start going through the proposed city system there will be even fewer people in the small Houses. A little consolidation would be good.

Jukilian

I disagree about how Hashan should be neutral-mercantile. Hashan has tried to be neutral for a long time now, and I think it's only led to stagnation. Since the Merchants left, mercantile is even less possible.

I'm looking forward to this Renaissance making a real difference.

Jinsun

> @Jukilian said:
> I disagree about how Hashan should be neutral-mercantile. Hashan has tried to be neutral for a long time now, and I think it's only led to stagnation. Since the Merchants left, mercantile is even less possible.
>
> I'm looking forward to this Renaissance making a real difference.

@Jhui‌ if the occie house crumbles lets all move to Hashan and beef them up.

Jhaeli

You can't really paint an identity around "neutrality". It basically just boils down to not doing something. What Cyrene DOES do well is Art and Merchanting though, so (especially since the Merchant House has since left Hashan), you would likely be better off embracing yourself as the city of Darkness. It's a good niche that doesn't force all Hashanis into the Dark order, but nevertheless provides some identity and purpose to the city. I still don't entirely understand why *players* are balking at the idea of it.

Vayne

Jhaeli said:

You can't really paint an identity around "neutrality". It basically just boils down to not doing something. What Cyrene DOES do well is Art and Merchanting though, so (especially since the Merchant House has since left Hashan), you would likely be better off embracing yourself as the city of Darkness. It's a good niche that doesn't force all Hashanis into the Dark order, but nevertheless provides some identity and purpose to the city. I still don't entirely understand why *players* are balking at the idea of it.

Mostly because of a very vocal minority who cries conspiracy at every turn and political aspirants who capitalize on their paranoia.

Trevize

Not making a choice, in and of itself, is a choice.

Neutrality isn't avoiding conflict, it's purposefully choosing to let the conflict happen and giving up any control over the results.

Vayne

Trevize said:

Not making a choice, in and of itself, is a choice.

Neutrality isn't avoiding conflict, it's purposefully choosing to let the conflict happen and giving up any control over the results.

Yes, many seem not to be able to delineate between the concepts of pacifism and neutrality. Hashan has never been either, it is nigh impossible to be neutral in Achaea being a conflict driven game. Hashan has always been at the the behest of some other city or organization at any given point in history. I always found the politics of Hashan most fulfilling when we were maneuvering those larger powers to work for our own agendas, whether it to be to leave us be or better yet keep other threat preoccupied for us, ect.

I think Hashan is finally moving in the right direction. I feel better about the general mood in the city right now than I have in a long time, and I think the House changes are going to really help galvanize the direction the city is heading in.

Korben

Trevize said:

Neutrality isn't avoiding conflict, it's purposefully choosing to let the conflict happen and giving up any control over the results.

That is only true if the neutral party does not deal with the conflicting parties in any form. More often, the amount and kinds of noncombat interaction with the parties involved in the conflict can still influence the course of said conflict.

Jhaeli

Trevize said:

Not making a choice, in and of itself, is a choice.

Neutrality isn't avoiding conflict, it's purposefully choosing to let the conflict happen and giving up any control over the results.

Which is why I said "basically." We could wax philosophical on the subject of neutrality all day, but in the end, it does not suffice for the identity of an Achaean city. You need a purpose and an identity to rally behind, something that keeps citizens engaged and morale high. And you have a convenient (and fun!) identity in Darkness just waiting for you to pick her, again, especially because a) the Merchant House has left the city and b) another city also claims Merchanting as a part of its identity. 

Korben

On another point, according to the announce,

The ideal relationship between a city and its houses is a cohesive, symbiotic one. Each individual house brings unique and valuable strengths to the city; the identity of each house is clearly tied to the city of which it is part, and together the houses clearly exemplify the city's ideals as a whole. Conversely, the identity of the city itself is dependent on its member houses.

This sums up everything Hashan should be and is not. The system is such that a minority can raise an outcry and prevent change, and there will always be a minority (sometimes a majority) that does not want change.

I say we keep the physical city, but wipe out the orgs and restart with new ones.

Jinsun

> @Korben said:
> On another point, according to the announce,
>
> The ideal relationship between a city and its houses is a cohesive,
> symbiotic one. Each individual house brings unique and valuable
> strengths to the city; the identity of each house is clearly tied to the
> city of which it is part, and together the houses clearly exemplify the
> city's ideals as a whole. Conversely, the identity of the city itself
> is dependent on its member houses.
>
>
>
>
>
> This sums up everything Hashan should be and is not. The system is such that a minority can raise an outcry and prevent change, and there will always be a minority (sometimes a majority) that does not want change.
>
> I say we keep the physical city, but wipe out the orgs and restart with new ones.

Needs a dark dictator and a secret police for maximum efficiency

Mithridates

Why does it always turn into a Hashan thread

Tharvis

Mithridates said:

Why does it always turn into a Hashan thread

embrace the Hashan!

Jacen

Because its the most broken city by far, and for the longest time, currently. 

Jinsun

Let's sink it.

Blujixapug

Korben said:

Ideally, Hashan should be neutral-mercantile, but for that it'd need some resource the other factions couldn't take by force or get themselves, leading them to trade and negotiate with Hashan.

I reject the idea of defining an org as neutral. You can give them neutral themes, but you can't make their theme neutrality, or they're doomed. Defining an org as neutral is like defining a meal as flavourless, or a room as empty, or a person as average. It's not a real adjective, not for this purpose. You need to make the org about something. After they're the City of the Night, or the City of Spirits, or the Dystopian City of Rampant Clockwork Technology, or whatever, then its players can decide how that influences their outlook and outwards stance. You need to deal them a hand before they can decide how to play it.

Look at Eleusis. It's in a relatively neutral position right now. But if you're describing Eleusis, you don't say 'it's neutral'. You say 'it's a forestal city, they represent Nature'. Players representing that theme, that ideology, have decided to play it a particular way. The material there has sufficient depth for them to interpret it in different ways, and choose particular foreign policy positions in relation to other factions.