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Comments
I think the reason that some of us jump to irrational as our "worst case scenario" is that sometimes things aren't done in a super rational way. For instance, I had heard from a Cyrenian that the Senate (or whoever) agreed that all houses would close out of fairness (so that no one house got targetted to close) and that the new houses would be based on combat, philosophy (or something?) and exploration. To me, that would be worst case scenario, and completely irrational because: 1. There are houses with immense and beautiful history in Cyrenian houses (I had an alt in the Mojushai when it was still a guild). There's absolutely no reason to do that out of a sense of fairness. If anything, in a communal sense, two similar houses biting the proverbial bullet and merging while everyone reformats makes more sense. 2. As, I've spoken endlessly on themes such as combat, philosophy, and exploration are not something that you can build a house on. It destroys RP and any material reward for participating in group RP. Seriously? How is exploration going to be the basis of an entire house? Exploration legitimately takes up 1 project for the Occultists. Being confined to such restrictive topics just sounds like a total nightmare. 3. I'm scared it will happen to me.
To be honest, I'd like to see what a Cyrenian has to say about this. I just don't count on my informant to be wrong on it. However, to me, that is such a horrible way to handle things, and not very rational. I bring up things that may seem irrational because I do not want to see them happening as I see happening in other places. Echoing the thoughts of many, this seems rushed and stupid like some of the other changes we've seen recently.
Also, on one hand, assumptions are necessary in any logical reasoning, so they aren't inherently unreasonable - furthermore, since we don't really know how things will go down, it's difficult to discuss anything without making potentially wrong assumptions.
On another note, there is little we can safely assume is true - therefore it is also not safe to assume they won't do it in some way we find personally horrible, due to some reasoning we yet don't know.
ETA: It may sound critical to say this, but furthermore, I feel it's even safe to assume it will be rushed, given that many things (including, from the sounds of it, Targossas's houses) have been in the past.
That's not what's happening exactly at all. I don't think it is something we -should- be talking about, specially since some of us only have a very basic idea. I will put in my two cents about the Mojushai though.
Before I left it, I was trying to get our house leader to change it drastically, our ideals, ethos, all of it. The house was not, is not doing well. (I was head of novices, and looking at the logs yearly and doing reports, we were failing at member retention and acting as a group) and was pushing to have this all changed. Aeryllin and I loved the house and wanted to do anything to save it. (Also the history of the Mojushai isn't to beautiful, trust me..I cry every time I read through our news board and I am ecstatic that crap will go away.)
Our ethos were a mess, and they really didn't work to well with Cyrene as a whole, it's very hard to teach that everyone is equal and we should help everyone, when we should not be helping city enemies and the like. If you don't, you're not being humble or benevolent, you are reserving that for select people which goes against humility. (Understanding that we are all a part of this world together, and that no one person is more important.)
This is a way for the house to be let go gently, I can't speak about the Kindred, it's the only house in Cyrene I've not been a part of. But if you look at it from this point of view: It really would suck to merge them together, nothing about the two houses meshes well together at all. Plus you have people like @Saidie and @Aeryllin who put a lot of work into keeping the houses going. Who would step down? Why should either of them?
My point is: The Mojushai needed a drastic change, and this is it. Letting it have a nice end, to serve as a new foundation for a new house to rise up on.
I don't think many may agree with me, that's fine. But I think this is what is best for the house, and I know deep down @Aeryllin at least agrees with me on some level.
(I can't and wont speak about the wardens or ty beirdd, cause I simply don't know enough and I'm not sure I should stay stuff here? I know in game I was told not to speak about it with other people, so it's a little jarring to hear someone from Cyrene once again going around spouting stuff. The thing with the Mojushai was something attempted well before we knew houses would be changed.)
Despite being a few IRL months outside of the Cyrene circle, Cyrene's houses really did need the help. Most of the leadership and several of the citizens were Houseless (or not in Cyrenian Houses) because frankly, they were just kind of terrible. I left the Mojushai ages ago for a very wide range of reasons, but the terrible-ness was apart of it for sure. Things had been going downhill for a long time on all fronts, and then you added in the raids and some other issues and it just was a hot mess. I'm very excited to see what happens from Cyrene, even if I'm no longer directly involved (so many mixed feelings about that - I both do and don't want to be there for all of this. I guess even a few months later it's hard to let go).
More than anything right now, I'm just wanting to know the order of which cities go when so I can get an idea of some IC stuff I'm getting in order. I really don't want to move forward until I know for sure, as the timeline could very much effect it.
That love soon might end You are unbreaking
And be known in its aching Though quaking
Shown in this shaking Though crazy
Lately of my wasteland, baby That's just wasteland, baby
@Jacen has a bit of a history of needlessly insulting this particular faction, hence my defensive attitude. That said, you're still entirely correct. Sorry for the snappy response.
NP Bebe.
All right I get the point Heh.
As for all the negative things said about the Mojushai by @Lilian and @Melodie well you guys didn't stick around to save it. To hear you practically say it's getting what it deserves is harsh and unfair to those of us who didn't lose our strength and run. Even if your not sad to see it go those of us who actually care about the Mojushai will be. So next time you want to bash on a house you left, Don't.
No one is bashing the Mojushai. @Lilian mentioned the difficulties and flaws the House had, which is something completely different. Its fine if you disagree with her assessment on what those flaws are, but guilt-tripping is not the best way to begin such a conversation. I know for certain that Lilian cares very much about the House, but there is no point in forcing yourself to remain in a house or city, no matter how much you love it, if you no longer find enjoyment within it.
Also, lol at the idea you can't bash a House/City/Whatever just because you left.
And you won't understand the cause of your grief...
...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.
I love @Sunny 's indomitable nature and no one should shit on it. He's wonderful
Maybe I can appeal to saner heads and reword this to try and punch through the Targossian forum-rp and get some intelligent advice instead of the loud cries of "YOU DON'T KNOW ME!!!"
You guys went thru this process first, you have the experience of doing it and you've seen the results of your efforts. So I ask: How did you go about designing three new organizations to be unique and not overlap with the two existing organizations which all serve the single faction of Good?
Err I didn't "bash" it at all. I stated an opinion, one that I said not everyone would agree with. Further more you are very bloody wrong, I did stick around, I stuck around to the point where the game was not fun for me.
I worked my butt off for the house and I did everything I could, but the simple fact is, Aeryllin and myself were not enough to get the house off the ground. I'm not going to sit here and point fingers, but I wont let anyone say -I- gave up, when I tried harder then everyone else.
I love the Mojushai and I am truly sad to see it go, but the fact is, the house is not in good shape and was not and is not improving. A gentle good bye to have something new replace it, for everyone to focus their energy on -is- the best thing for it.
You don't need to agree, you really don't and that is fine.
@Lilian and @Shirszae Perhaps I was a little hotheaded but it sounded like bashing to me. I have been at the Mojushai since I left the flame and knowing that all of the efforts -I- put in personally were in vain is very disheartening. Then to hear people point out it's flaws at this time...well how else should I have reacted?
@Jinsun thanks for sticking up for me.
I think you're misunderstanding my post.
I spent 6-7 OOC years in the Mojushai, serving as a House sec. twice, a mentor for nearly my entire time there, and god knows what kinds of aides. I maintained the House shop and promoted a lot of things within the House. I don't think the House is "getting what it deserves", I'm saying the House needs a lot of help that I believe can only be found through this new beginning. The Mojushai is far from the only House needing that, but I can only personally speak to Cyrenian and (some) Eleusian Houses, mostly. Also, you're very uninformed if you thought I just ran away from the problem. I left a pretty detailed post before I left, but basically my character had grown to understand some fundamental differences in her beliefs and the Mojushai, and wasn't able to reconcile them. Some personal drama issues didn't help.
If you want a better understanding of why I think what I think, feel free to ask instead of simply assuming the worst.
That love soon might end You are unbreaking
And be known in its aching Though quaking
Shown in this shaking Though crazy
Lately of my wasteland, baby That's just wasteland, baby
In the end, the Mojushaine idea of benevolence to all will need to go the way of the dodo for same reason that Achaea needed to remove the Sentaari and the god Oneiros. It just doesn't work in Achaea's conflict-heavy environment, even in a city like Cyrene. Doesn't mean that it, in and of itself, is a bad thing, only a bad fit.
"Gilgamesh, where are you hurrying to? You will never find that [everlasting] life for which you are looking. When the gods created man they allotted to him death, but life they retained in their own keeping. As for you, Gilgamesh, fill your belly with good things; day and night, night and day, dance and be merry, feast and rejoice. Let your clothes be fresh, bathe yourself in water, cherish the little child that holds your hand, and make your wife happy in your embrace; for this too is the lot of man."
It's a moot point, but @Lilian and myself worked ourselves ragged on things for the Mojushai which didn't quite come to fruition. Probably would have helped put us on a better road. I unfortunately had to call a full halt to our restructuring and plans once I got wind of this as a HL.
But anyone that cares about their House is in the same situation. We're all upset and there are a lot of people that are railing against changes that are going to happen regardless of whether we want them to or not - not that the concerns aren't valid and major and going to affect every aspect of these characters' lives - but its like crying over the proverbial spilled milk.
It isn't constructive to argue about it and this isn't a time to be dwelling on the past and what has gone before, no matter how much it hurts or you'll miss it. I'm far from the only one that devoted my character's entire life to their chosen House, or feels lost, or is devastated.
There is a lot of promise in the things I've seen for this Renaissance. Rather than rise against and shake my fist and run my mouth, I choose to devote my energies to trying to find ways to make what is to come as awesome as it has the potential to be.
This may be a change handed down from the admins but it is we, the players, that will have some of the most critical say in the success or failure of what is to come. The hardcoded structure inherent in a House is not its character, does not dictate how well it works with the city, or how generally successful it is. We are not powerless. We are the ones that will populate these Houses, we are the ones that will be their government, we are the ones that will manage things. It's on us.
All we can do is look forward and try to make the future successful and better that what has gone before it.
Did, waiting on reply.
I know, we totally talked!
You have a funny way of asking for help.
And you won't understand the cause of your grief...
...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.
Im beginning to see the issues with this house.
I just remembered why my original answer was a bit snappy lol
Thank you for that @Lilian. It's not that I didn't agree with what was said, because sadly I did. That was one of the reasons I was so testy. I spent countless IC years coming up with ways to try and better the Mojushai. Most of my ideas were met with less enthusiasm than I felt. I didn't stop trying though. I figured eventually if I couldn't voice my opinions and be heard then I would implement them myself. So I started working with novices and building a better Mojushai. I hope to take this same passion into my new house. I hope that the Mojushai can stay together as a clan but that is up to the Admins or whoever. I have already started working people into talking about where they want to go, and as sad as it is a lot of people are considering leaving Cyrene. They feel that if they are being forced to start over it should atleast be on their terms. Well I can't leave Cyrene. Not yet. There is still so much I want to do for it, and perhaps with my characters personality others can change their opinion of the Renaissance. This isn't about how far the Mojushai have fallen but about what will rise from it's ashes. Even if it isn't a better tomorrow you can bet Sunny will be there with a smile, and laugh. Or even a little prank. Who knows what's in store for us for the future. All I know is I look forward to waking in realms and being met with all the hello's that show just how loved Sunny is. So with that said look not at what you are losing but at what you can do to create a better tomorrow.
Occultism is a body of knowledge and a set of practises. But it has extensive, inextricable ties to a skillset. For House members, that is relevant on a frequent basis in actual, gameplay-affecting ways. If the House is doing some RP or eventing involving the Emperor or one of the other Chaos Lords, non-classed Occultists can't go to the Chaos Plane. If something happens involving karma or the Eschaton, non-classed Occultists can't do that. If someone does some kind of ritual or experiment involving class skills, non-classed Occultists will have to reach to do more than sit on the sidelines and watch.
You can throw out ideas about blademaster Occultists or sylvan Occultists or whatever, and make connections between themes of class and House. "Occultists are scholars, and mages are Dumbledore-ish, it's a perfect match." "Blademasters use a couple of abilities named after the Void, and Chaos is kind of the Void I assume! Let's go!" But in practise it doesn't really work, and it's very hard to make work.
The Occultist House's identity and environment were only created by a lot of people doing the same thing, together, for many years. That identity is something special (or else people wouldn't care about it and this wouldn't be a discussion). If you come along as a blademaster Occultist, how are you going to participate in and contribute to that identity?
You have your Void themes in VoidFist, InfuseVoid, and the Sanya stance. You can expand on those. Create some roleplay about how you meditate on the Void to, I don't know, see the influence of Chaos in the world. You can do some ritual where you offer your blade along with a tenth of your soul to a Chaos Lord as a pact, and it's stamped with the mark of the Pathfinder, or the Shapechanger, or the Skyscourge. You investigate the properties and special significance that make certain unique objects karmic, and attempt to invest the same into your one-of-a-kind blade. Maybe you infuse the Void into your blade to try and cut through planes and let some friendly tentacles through. Maybe you quietly invent some history about Kashar and the Two Arts and precisely why it is that blades have to be unique and named, and inject some propaganda about Chaos/change/uniqueness vs Order/stagnancy/conformity.
But the thing about doing all that stuff is - it's really hard to do it alone. The status quo does not support you. It's hard to have the motivation and creativity to pioneer, to come up with this stuff and keep doing it until you become recognised for it. Others will struggle to relate to what you're doing, because they have their own class, their own skills. The ideas you do come up with may flat-out suck. You'll be lucky as hell if there's another blademaster there (in your timezone) for you to support and encourage each other and bounce ideas off one another. And then maintaining the concepts you've introduced until they become traditions. I know from experience because I played as a sylvan in the Occultists. I would do my little RP trying to grow Chaos-fertilised halfbreed plants that would run around and eat people, or meddle with the elemental planes, and what I was doing didn't really connect with other people in the House. I almost never saw the other sylvan-classed members online. AFAIK it was the same for the small number of apostates, serpents, and whichever other classes the House was briefly multiclassed to accept.
It could be made to work. Coders could hardcode workarounds to let non-occultist Housies travel to the Chaos Plane. Mechanics like the Chaos Lord blade pact could be created. That's the type of ongoing support that will help make this change more successful than the previous implementation of House multiclass. Will the resulting 18-20 Houses (minus Targ's 3) all receive that level of care and attention? Do they all have active, amazing patrons? If HMs qualify to receive help with new features, do they know what they can ask for, or that they can ask for things at all? In the past there has often been a lack of ongoing support for newly introduced features.
I realise I'm making the assumption that the Occultists will continue to exist as a House. They might not! I would be very sad if they were Lego-smashed. Although Occultists may end up being unique - too unique - in how specific their themes are. Having only seen Targ's new Houses so far, I can only speculate, but their themes seem quite general: "knowledge is power", "mastery, excellence, and heroism", and "education, research, ritual, and preaching". Those things are not class-specific. They're no ice wizards, or demon summoners, or psionic masters of the mind. I wonder if that is the pattern that will be followed.
@ThreeColoursBlujixapug got me thinking - using Targ as a blueprint is kind of interesting. I assume it's being done because it seems to work, and the players seem united and the Houses seem cohesive. It is, however, an enormous mistake to think that any of that is due to Targ's House structure. It is because, quite literally, the old city was EATEN BY GIANT LIZARDS BECAUSE THE PLAYERS WOULDN'T GET ALONG WITH THE CITY'S PURPOSE.
That's what was needed in that case to remedy the situation. Cities with similar problems, I doubt, will be willing to play along as a factional group as nicely because their lesson hasn't been so lizard-eaty and final. Certainly they'll need more than having three multi-classed Houses. I hope that as much attention is given to actually fixing the problems that exist rather than just shoehorning everyone into the structure and assuming that'll do the fixing. It won't.
ETA: In fact, the Mojushine kerfuffle upthread is an interesting insight into how, I would think, this change is going to increase internecine strife in the short term at least.
RE: Vansittart: I think a large portion of player obstinance comes from being able to point to traditions and say "Our House always done it that way!" From what I've heard, all of Cyrene's Houses are going to be reformed anew, requiring everyone to "rejoin" them. That removes the ability to fall back on the tradition excuse, and having to willingly apply to join the new Houses removes folks' ability to act like they were forced into it. I think that will handle the big problems. There will still be problem children, I'm sure, but nothing an active, admin-supported leader can't handle.
Near as I can tell, the Renaissance should sucker-punch both of those issues in the cod. The old guard is left houseless unless they willingly agree to take part in the new revolution, and I think there's more than enough folks with each respective interest to sustain the 3 House archetypes, once the restrictions that scattered those people across 4 Houses are gone.
Edit: Another quick point, Cyrene doesn't have quite the same problems as Shallam, because Shallam was supposed to be united with a single cause. Cyrene doesn't suffer from that complication so its Houses are free to be disapparate and even opposing, as long as they're all active and interesting. I actually kinda enjoyed the old Warden/Mojushai Hawk/Dove rivalry.