Multiclassing

Bukariin

EVE Online went through a 5ish year phase where people were crying for changes to player-owned structure mechanics that couldn't be implemented because the coders literally couldn't find the POS code  

Iocun

Nim said:

gosh, just write a multi-class method and add a multi-class variable, then everything will work right

take like five minutes tops

Just do a Find and Replace for "single class" to "multiclass" in the Achaea_Code file. Should work.

Sarapis

Hod said:

Sarapis said:

Hod said:

I was sleeping. And you can throw around all kinds of insults, but I've been coding for over a decade, so I'm not sitting here making armchair hypotheses. My main point was really that it is nowhere even close to the complexity of ships being added, not that you could literally write one line of code and add multiclass. Obviously you're gonna have to work around some things. I haven't seen the code, so certain things may or not be somewhat difficult to do, since I realize some people have said Achaea's code is quite monolithic, but adding multiclass is orders of magnitude easier than writing a completely new feature. Again, this was not a call out of staff for being lazy, I'm perfectly aware there are plenty of things to be done and decisions to be made before they actually implement this.

Actually, adding multi-classing is one of the most complex and difficult changes we could make to the game because doing so mandates wide-reaching changes to other game systems in a way that something like ships, which is largely a stand-alone system, does not.

I suppose I'm in the dark on something then. It seems to me that quite of bit of the game is largely independent of what class you are, besides class abilities themselves. I realize that is an assumption that could be wrong. That, and a lot of the work was already done in that regard which I was taking into account. From my (ignorant) standpoint it seemed to me that only these things remaining that needed to be implemented: Additional character information, which I assume if you're using an actual database system (another assumption), would be trivial. Second, a way to change between classes, which Certimene already allows (however I get the feeling another route is being persued, hence the additional complexity.)

I explained this literally like 6 posts ago. I'll repeat:

"It's got little to do with coding and the necessary code for multiclassing is already basically done anyway. As someone above pointed out, multiclassing can't happen until House Renaissance is done, and we may also hold off until we've split tradeskills off from the classes we intend to split them off from. And, as we're splitting off tradeskills, we're also taking the opportunity to, in some cases (like Forging), completely redo how they work. And then, of course, replacements for the classes that lost skills have to be put in too. Generally speaking the design time takes considerably longer than the actual coding time. "

Hod

@Sarapis (Not quoting cause idk how to do the hide thingy)

For the record, I said this a few posts ago.

"Again, this was not a call out of staff for being lazy, I'm perfectly aware there are plenty of things to be done and decisions to be made before they actually implement this."

I feel like everyone is taking what I'm saying as an insult when it isn't meant to be one at all...

Cooper

"I'm perfectly aware there are plenty of things to be done and decisions to be made before they actually implement this."

and

"I don't understand why anyone thinks that adding multiclassing would require an immense coding effort."

plus

"I feel like everyone is taking what I'm saying as an insult when it isn't mean to be one at all..."

and

"But the code can't be that bad...Can it?"

Kind of contradict what you're saying.

Kinilan

Ugh this thread. It's not complicated, it's not hard. These excuses are crap. Multiclass should be done by now  and it's pretty obvious why it isn't. It comes down to one thing and one thing only. @Silas is lazy.

Hod

Cooper said:

"I'm perfectly aware there are plenty of things to be done and decisions to be made before they actually implement this."

and

"I don't understand why anyone thinks that adding multiclassing would require an immense coding effort."

plus

"I feel like everyone is taking what I'm saying as an insult when it isn't mean to be one at all..."

and

"But the code can't be that bad...Can it?"

Kind of contradict what you're saying.

House redesign/Tradeskill split/New skills have nothing to do with the coding effort I was referring to, so it's not really a contradiction.

And the the second part is so out of context, it was in reply to a joke about the weather system.

Suladan

Hod = Troll.
Flag me.
I'm done trying to reason.

Jukilian

@Hod I didn't take what you said as an insult, per se. More that I thought your comment (see my previous post here) was out of place as you haven't seen the code behind Achaea. We can assume how it's coded, but that's it. I would think it wouldn't be hard to do either, but I'm not going to assume as much.

As it stands, it was complex to do, yes. But most of that was not on the coding, if I'm reading Sarapis right. It was more in the development of what it is and how it will be done.

Now less of the personal attacks and back to discussing Multiclass.  

Curious as to how stuff like my Necklace of Purity will work in regards to swapping class. And armour. I should multiclass as a Knight, make the best fullplate ever, wear it, swap to Magi, and put up all my Magi defences. And be one of the tankiest people in the game.

Sarapis

I should multiclass as a Knight, make the best fullplate ever, wear it, swap to Magi, and put up all my Magi defences. And be one of the tankiest people in the game.

That definitely will not work. All class-specific defenses and equipment will be removed on switching to a class that doesn't allow them.

Caladbolg

Sarapis said:

I should multiclass as a Knight, make the best fullplate ever, wear it, swap to Magi, and put up all my Magi defences. And be one of the tankiest people in the game.

That definitely will not work. All class-specific defenses and equipment will be removed on switching to a class that doesn't allow them.  

On that thought What about runes, Since you can currently rune your self and switch to dragon are you guys going to do anything to stop someone from runeing as runewarden (especially with the 6 hour runes) and then switch to Monk for instance?
And on that note would the 6 hour runes still hold up if you switch over to a different class and if so . would the damage resistance in pvp hold up as well since you -had- runelore when you switched?

Also the questions im asking right now is likely why this is taking so long, get it all coded be like sweet let's let them test it to make sure it works and then you have lil ol' Caladbolg figuring out ways around this stuff so they can say GOD WE HAVE TO REWRITE ALL THIS SHIT OVER NOW. THANKS ASSHOLE.

Hod

Caladbolg said:

Sarapis said:

I should multiclass as a Knight, make the best fullplate ever, wear it, swap to Magi, and put up all my Magi defences. And be one of the tankiest people in the game.

That definitely will not work. All class-specific defenses and equipment will be removed on switching to a class that doesn't allow them.  

On that thought What about runes, Since you can currently rune your self and switch to dragon are you guys going to do anything to stop someone from runeing as runewarden (especially with the 6 hour runes) and then switch to Monk for instance?
And on that note would the 6 hour runes still hold up if you switch over to a different class and if so . would the damage resistance in pvp hold up as well since you -had- runelore when you switched?

Also the questions im asking right now is likely why this is taking so long, get it all coded be like sweet let's let them test it to make sure it works and then you have lil ol' Caladbolg figuring out ways around this stuff so they can say GOD WE HAVE TO REWRITE ALL THIS SHIT OVER NOW. THANKS ASSHOLE.

I don't think hunting runes are really going to be a problem, especially since anyone can get them. The 1 vs 6 doesn't really provide any advantage besides convenience, however I can see someone empowering their runeblades and then say switching to infernal, which definitely makes a balance issue. Assuming they can still wield them, but if they can't, having to get a second set of rapiers would suck...

Jovolo

Obviously you wouldn't be able to do things like that

Hod

Jovolo said:

Obviously you wouldn't be able to do things like that

Hopefully the runeblades just don't function while infernal, otherwise it will kind of suck to have to rerune them everytime you switch.

Mishgul

you can't wield your own runeblades if you aren't runewarden already.

Cooper

The amount of people who think that multiclass means having access to more than one skillset at the same time is pretty surprising.

Atalkez

It's morphin' time bitches.

Bukariin

Shut up I want my instant Cripplesects

Nim

I'll be able to switch fast enough to absolve people who survive my brokenstar attempts, r-right?

Xith

Yeah, as Sarapis would lament (and has), how you'd have liked to set stuff up and how it is set up can be two different things. Occasionally they have to go through and do a structural rework with no aesthetic change just so things make more sense for them sorting through or adding new systems in a way that's efficient.

So even though the "multiclass" change itself is straightforward, the game has been structured around people and skills being a single class. In a Q&A a year or two ago, they stated that multiclass would be an easy switch to make but they first have to both move and replace skills from the tradeskill classes and change the relationship between class and house, which includes balancing any new skills.

If I were me (and I am), I'd have my coding team sandbox new changes on a dummy server to prevent bugs, but no matter how careful, the player base would inevitably use combinations of things that would tie knots in stuff in ways you couldn't possibly predict ahead of time, so there's the trial phase in every new skill introduced, another delay. Yes, it was something of a run-on sentence. Thank you for noticing. Design can take longer, and rightly should, because if you approach a function head-on to get it to do what you want and build outward from there, you can end up with a mess that you have to go back and rewrite and check and re-check to figure out why it's not working.

My primary problem with coding design is that I forget stuff after I've thought of it, pieces that I need. I do have a plastic Wal-Mart bag full of sticky notes from the office that I will someday transfer to my laptop, but sometimes (frequently) you're in the shower and don't have any sticky notes, and for some reason your ideas get lost in the steam the second you start drying off.

Kinda got sidetracked there... but I think my point was that simple ideas get complicated in implementation.

Xith

But back to my original question, any ideas or opinions of how many classes per person? Or any other restrictions besides alignment?

Tharvis

aren't they capping it at two?

Klendathu

Xith said:

... sometimes (frequently) you're in the shower and don't have any sticky notes, and for some reason your ideas get lost in the steam the second you start drying off...

You're welcome

Xith

Tharvis said:

aren't they capping it at two?

That would... Be such a waste of coding time. Might as well encourage people to alt more instead. My money is on 3-5. 

Xith

Would it be limited also to one factional class? As in, you can be Paladin but not also Priest?

I saw someone mention the idea earlier, restricting to one magic and one physical-based. (even though most of them have both) Came up with this attempt at categorization, and I know new classes aren't on the agenda, but is a Chaos knight needed? And are Hashan and Cyrene doomed to neutrality?



*I did note the possibility that Sylvans are also forestal priests, and that they share something with Magi. And I suppose Monks/Blademaster have similarities and are both priestly and knightly.

"Knights" were primarily those that use physical weapons as their main tool (excluding sents).

Darklyre

Off-topic a bit, but why DID the admins block the idea of Chaos Knights? Was it just because the thought of transmog'd knights repeatedly doing chaosrays/arc is silly?

Xith

Could implement with chaosrays etc. being *Occultist only, so that probably isn't the issue. But now that forging isn't a knight thing it'll mean Chivalry + two skillsets. Knights with Tarot are obviously a terrible idea and falcons are already annoying enough without inserting entities. Would probably have to be abilities from scratch for the 3rd.

Sarapis

When we don't implement something, it's not "blocking" the idea. It's simply not implementing it, right along with the essentially infinite other ideas we don't implement!

Aktillum

Sarapis said:

When we don't implement something, it's not "blocking" the idea. It's simply not implementing it, right along with the essentially infinite other ideas we don't implement!

Hence why I love admin feedback on classleads. Its nice to read "we'll investigate implementing this" or "this is something we would never consider in a million years" so you have some sort of response on your ideas.

Sarapis

@Aktillum Exactly why we have the 'idea' command.