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Multiclassing

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  • AccipiterAccipiter Member Posts: 378 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited November 2013
    Well, I timed it.

    From 8484 willpower to full at 20200 took 38 minutes, with trans philosophy, megalith and amulet of will, no willpower draining defs up.

    At the start of the time I had 20696 endurance, 12212 more endurance than willpower, when endurance was at 25786 (just below max at 26140) I had 13422 willpower, difference of 12364, so the regeneration rate of both is about the same (trans fitness and ox tattoo).

    If I was at 0, it would be far longer than your 22 minutes, unless that was counting sleep/meditation in which case you are essentially removed from the game and not something I think is a good thing. Sitting around talking to people is fine. Hiding somewhere to sleep is not good RP.

    I still maintain that classes with out of combat utility need to be looked at if you can change classes freely.

    I don't think I was too far off in my 'hyperbole' of an hour considering it took almost 40 minutes to regen 60% of my willpower, with endurance regenerating at the same rate.
    Prythe
  • CooperCooper IowaMember Posts: 4,778 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Why are you complaining about regeneration of endurance and willpower when you aren't using the things that regenerate them (sleep/meditate)? That's like complaining about bashing because you can't handle the damage, but you refuse to sip health or eat moss.

    AradorShirszaeTrevize
  • AccipiterAccipiter Member Posts: 378 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    You can also pop a starburst and be at full instantly! Wow!

    It doesn't change the fact that sleeping/meditating removes you from social interactions of the game. You may as well log out at that point except you don't regen if you do. It is nothing like refusing to sip health/eat moss because they require some measure of input, even if it is done by a system. Meditation requires you to -not- input.

    If I could log out and have endurance/willpower regen passively I would be fine. Requiring me to sit in front of my computer while a counter slowly ticks not being able to do anything but having to be attentive in case something important comes up? Boring as all shit and terrible game design. Classes with abilities to speed up this process will become as mandatory as the artefacts currently are, and in most cases cheaper too.
    JovoloEldTrevizeCooperShirszaeHalosHaldonPrytheSherazadEilona
  • TrevizeTrevize Member Posts: 1,517 @ - Epic Achaean
    I'd agree... if it was mandatory. But you're only doing that because you want to bash/fight again faster. You have two options: meditate/sleep if all you care about is bashing, or I don't know... interact and go back to it later.
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  • EldEld Member Posts: 3,946 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Accipiter said:
    You can also pop a starburst and be at full instantly! Wow!

    Will/end don't regenerate on burst, only on true death.
  • CooperCooper IowaMember Posts: 4,778 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    You realize that you still hear clans, party, order, city channels and tells while meditating or sleeping, right? And that if you want to respond, all you do is 'wake;ct Shut up you dumb noob;sleep'?

    ShirszaeTrevize
  • SkyeSkye The Duchess BellatereMember, Seafaring Liason Posts: 2,809 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I usually just use the opportunity to take a bathroom break or get a snack or something. Stretch your legs!


    MelodieAnaidianaEilona
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,276 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I used to clock time at my work while waiting for endurance/wp regen when I played a Monk.

    That ended up paying for my Lupine, I think.
    Synbios
  • NimNim Member Posts: 2,015 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    @Synbios: Whenever it comes to that, I always feel somehow superbly awesome, like... I can barely move my body anymore, so I'll just kill you with my soul!!!

    SynbiosCooperTrevizeEilona
  • EldEld Member Posts: 3,946 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Synbios said:
    After draining my endurance bashing with drawslash, I switch to using Shin Burst while my endurance recovers. When my willpower gets low from using burst, I switch back to drawslash.

    2efficient4humans
    Bashing with drawslash actually drains your endurance?
    Synbios[Deleted User]TrevizeCaladbolg
  • KakotasKakotas Member Posts: 264 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited November 2013
    Suggestion for limitations might be something akin to this (seeing as different classes require different training this RP makes sense)

    Alignment Classes: Occultist, Apostate, Priest, Paladin, Infernal (Exclusive class-you can only choose one side chaos/good/evil)

    Secondary Classes
    Martial Classes: Knights, Monks, Bladmasters, Paladin, Infernal
    Magic Classes: Magi, Sylvan, Druid, Shaman, Occultist
    Support Classes: Jester, Sentinel, Alchemist, Priest, Apostate


    Your Alignment class determines which secondary classes you may take (IE no infernal paladins or infernal priests). But further your primary secondary class determines your ability at learning secondary classes. So if you start as a Good Alignment character you can be paladin/priest but can't be infernal/occultist/etc. Then you choose your first secondary (Martial/Magic/Support) that means you will be able to learn your primary class and any classes that share that classification fairly easily but another classification would either cost you more lessons or would possibly face some limited restrictions based on the combination. Not sure exactly but that would be a good start for RP sake and for limiting the initial startup sake.

    As always you could change your secondary class but it would scrap everything you'd learned in it back to skilled just like the system is/was now.
    (Blades of Valour): He just has that Synbios Swagger enough said.
    (Blades of Valour): Draekar says: "Synbios if sunbeams sparkle off that I'll kill you where you stand."

    (Party) Halos says, "Disbar?"
    (Party) Draekar says, "You know here we have disbar."
    (Party) Draekar says, "And over there we have datbar."
    Sherazad
  • DecanDecan Member Posts: 112 ✭✭ - Stalwart
    I cant wait for multiclassing, because then I can play a class that isnt pk nerfed. Too bad all the flavour of the city's Houses will be comprimised to do it, but whats most important here is doubling the amount of credits someone has to buy to be trans "everything", right?
    image
    ShirszaePenwizeIocunVayneDaeirMelodieTreyArador
  • ShirszaeShirszae Santo DomingoMember Posts: 3,091 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    @Kakotas Overcomplicated and needless. The only necessary restriction is on learning alignment classes, of which you seem to have forgotten sylvan, druids, and sentinels.

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...


    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

    KakotasKyriellaAradorXith
  • CaladbolgCaladbolg Campbell County TNMember Posts: 1,126 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Decan said:
    I cant wait for multiclassing, because then I can play a class that isnt pk nerfed. Too bad all the flavour of the city's Houses will be comprimised to do it, but whats most important here is doubling the amount of credits someone has to buy to be trans "everything", right?
    It might've already been said I didn't real the full thread and I was dormant awhile, Are we completely sure that Houses are not all going to become the way the new Targossan houses are to be? A completely removal from what classes can join said house. Personally I thought this idea was pretty cool except in a few suitations (Snake houses).

  • DecanDecan Member Posts: 112 ✭✭ - Stalwart
    edited November 2013
    Caladbolg said:
    Decan said:
    I cant wait for multiclassing, because then I can play a class that isnt pk nerfed. Too bad all the flavour of the city's Houses will be comprimised to do it, but whats most important here is doubling the amount of credits someone has to buy to be trans "everything", right?
    It might've already been said I didn't real the full thread and I was dormant awhile, Are we completely sure that Houses are not all going to become the way the new Targossan houses are to be? A completely removal from what classes can join said house. Personally I thought this idea was pretty cool except in a few suitations (Snake houses).
    Pretty sure thats the idea. (Even snake houses and yes the Occultists too) I suppose the point is to basically segregate the non-comms from the fighters. Might not be a bad thing, but obviously a few Houses who have clear linage based on class will be hurt.
    image
  • CooperCooper IowaMember Posts: 4,778 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Decan said:
    I cant wait for multiclassing, because then I can play a class that isnt pk nerfed. Too bad all the flavour of the city's Houses will be comprimised to do it, but whats most important here is doubling the amount of credits someone has to buy to be trans "everything", right?
    Considering the massive buffs serpents got recently, and how good they already were, your statement is hilarious.

  • CaladbolgCaladbolg Campbell County TNMember Posts: 1,126 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Vayne said:

    Decan said:
    I cant wait for multiclassing, because then I can play a class that isnt pk nerfed. Too bad all the flavour of the city's Houses will be comprimised to do it, but whats most important here is doubling the amount of credits someone has to buy to be trans "everything", right?
    It won't compromise the flavour of the Houses, just force them to actually be responsible for creating their own instead of basing it off a class.
    Agreed. I liked the Sentarri but I never felt at home in that house with everything being referenced to Kai when Caladbolg was a Blademaster, and being told everything you see as Kai consider it shen.. Just didn't pan out in my mind as good roleplay when im terrible at it to start with.

  • KakotasKakotas Member Posts: 264 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished

    Shirszae said:
    @Kakotas Overcomplicated and needless. The only necessary restriction is on learning alignment classes, of which you seem to have forgotten sylvan, druids, and sentinels.
    Actually I haven't I have other thoughts on Eleusis which don't belong in this forum. Many of which Eleusians would like but it would require some concessions. But that is a topic for a different thread. If you must include them as an alignment then so be it I think they are stronger as a force for nature without being considered an exclusive alignment but what do I know I'm probably just going senile in my old age.
    (Blades of Valour): He just has that Synbios Swagger enough said.
    (Blades of Valour): Draekar says: "Synbios if sunbeams sparkle off that I'll kill you where you stand."

    (Party) Halos says, "Disbar?"
    (Party) Draekar says, "You know here we have disbar."
    (Party) Draekar says, "And over there we have datbar."
  • DecanDecan Member Posts: 112 ✭✭ - Stalwart
    edited November 2013
    Vayne said:
    Well, it will give people the options of joining whatever house best suits their interests. Say you want to play x class in x city, you have two options: play a rogue or join the house that has rights to that class. This is especially problematic when the House that has rights to that class is dead, dysfunctional, or just not the place for you. Multiclass will give you the flexibility and ability to expand your roleplay while simultaneously putting pressure on houses to actually embody an ethos to attract members if they want to succeed.

    For example, I have talked with Mannimar many times how awesome it would be to have runewardens, which is currently the Black Lotus's, in the Spiritwalkers and all the cool spiritual knight defending the physical and spiritual worlds and such. However, I recognize that would be a niche role, since those who like combat tend to pick knightly classes and by extension combat oriented houses like the Lotus. Thus, as good as an idea runies in the SW might be, I don't think you could justify taking them from the BL, it would likely hurt the game overall. However, multiclass allows those niche players to play a SW runie while the mainstream players can still filter into the BL. Everyone is happy!

    People are worried that mismatched classes will ruin the atmosphere of some of the houses, but I do not see the big issue, a class should not define the character. True some classes are more aligned than others but that will be considered in the implementation. However, most could fit into the various mentalities and ethos of the Houses with no real detriment I think. Furthermore, the houses are free to kick whoever they want out last time I checked. Likewise, if you develop a certain culture, you are naturally going to attract certain players. So again...it won't ruin anything unless the houses are too lazy to adapt and actually create an environment people can become engaged in and enjoy.
    As many positive future possibilities that could be mentioned of how great the new system could be, there and obvious drawback. If there are x amount of houses per city, and each of these houses fill a predefined 'role' for the city, there is a certain 'cookie cutter' approach to the problem. That problem is certain houses are simply unsuccessful. Do I think that the cookie cutter approach cures that? Yes it does. However, I think that if a House based its ideals on a class they should not be belittled when there are houses who have not based ideals on anything concrete. 

    Also, there is still the same option for 'abuse' in the House system. Say I join the combat House. They may personally not like me, and vote to cast me out based on that dislike, and not that I didnt follow their rules or be combative enough. Then as a combatant, where could I go? Because the Houses will accept all classes I can stay in the city, yes. But I cant pursue my ambition of combat as fervently because the combative house kicked me out. Not to mention you get a ton of Alpha PK males in a House together, the drama will likely ensue. 

    At the end of the day you have to do whats right for the credit sales, and multiclass is whats right there. Spinning it to sound like the changes will be nothing but positive is just feeding into the hype. Lets be realistic, Achaea is a business, sales are what drive the company, you get sales by catering to the masses. The same problems will still manifest themselves(mostly favoritism), they will just look a little different than they did before.
    image
    ShirszaeCooperHasarArador
  • ArditiArditi Member Posts: 841
    @Decan, you're overly pessimistic and cynical about the future to come, and I say this as someone whose first act as Nagaraja was to draft a letter of resignation and save it to my hard drive.

    Make the change you want to see in your organization. A: Nobody's going to hand it to you, and B: Even if they did, you wouldn't want it because they didn't include X and Y.

    Florentino
  • VayneVayne Rhode IslandMember Posts: 1,897 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited November 2013
    Yes, IRE is a business and it is in their best interest to keep their customers satisfied by making a better product. Credit sales may be increased by this but player retention by making the game more enjoyable seems to be the goal here, seeing the other updates and overhauls coming into play in the near future. As I said, a house can choose who it allows to be a member regardless of any factor. If a one class house doesn't want a certain class, kick them out. I just think it present far more benefit, depth, and potential to the game then the ad hoc set up that has evolved into many of the current houses. Politics will be in the houses regardless, that is part of the game. The houses will not be cookie cutters, you can still have fighters, ritualistic, scholars etc. in various houses, some will just have more emphasis on one or another as they already do, just without the class restrictions.
    image
  • DecanDecan Member Posts: 112 ✭✭ - Stalwart
    Arditi said:
    @Decan, you're overly pessimistic and cynical about the future to come, and I say this as someone whose first act as Nagaraja was to draft a letter of resignation and save it to my hard drive.

    Make the change you want to see in your organization. A: Nobody's going to hand it to you, and B: Even if they did, you wouldn't want it because they didn't include X and Y.
    @Arditi Its not pessimism its just that no one seems to think of all the possible outcomes, even the scary bad ones no one wants to talk about. I have no problem pointing out the flaws while everyone else is content to pat themselves on the back for a job well done. Life, just like Achaea, is not filled with only gumdrops and lollipops. Don't fault me for reminding you.

    Back onto the subject of Multiclass though: If all the Houses accept all (or most) Classes then one should expect the average number of HHELP files to double, triple, or even quadruple in some cases depending on what was already available. Each class will have to have certain learning points to hit for novice training and each class will need to have the relevant information for that class included in HHELPs. Someone's got some writing to do!
    image
  • PrythePrythe Member Posts: 469 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Valdus said:
    I just want all of you to be prepared that this could take as much as a RL year to be implemented. It's not right around the corner.

    So, bear that in mind.
    I don't think it will be that long as it has already been announced because :: drum roll :: they wouldn't want people to wait on "switching classes" (and the credit purchases which come along with doing so) because they know multi-class is coming.

    As for Prythe - wow. I never wanted to be anything other than Druid, but the possibility of being something in addition to Druid, I will definitely have to ponder.

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