Multiclassing

Silas

Health regen needs looking at too, it isn't even able to keep up with artied monk damage. Sometimes I even die because of it.

Unacceptable.

Cooper

Why are you complaining about regeneration of endurance and willpower when you aren't using the things that regenerate them (sleep/meditate)? That's like complaining about bashing because you can't handle the damage, but you refuse to sip health or eat moss.

Accipiter

You can also pop a starburst and be at full instantly! Wow!

It doesn't change the fact that sleeping/meditating removes you from social interactions of the game. You may as well log out at that point except you don't regen if you do. It is nothing like refusing to sip health/eat moss because they require some measure of input, even if it is done by a system. Meditation requires you to -not- input.

If I could log out and have endurance/willpower regen passively I would be fine. Requiring me to sit in front of my computer while a counter slowly ticks not being able to do anything but having to be attentive in case something important comes up? Boring as all shit and terrible game design. Classes with abilities to speed up this process will become as mandatory as the artefacts currently are, and in most cases cheaper too.

Trevize

I'd agree... if it was mandatory. But you're only doing that because you want to bash/fight again faster. You have two options: meditate/sleep if all you care about is bashing, or I don't know... interact and go back to it later.

Eld

Accipiter said:

You can also pop a starburst and be at full instantly! Wow!

Will/end don't regenerate on burst, only on true death.

Cooper

You realize that you still hear clans, party, order, city channels and tells while meditating or sleeping, right? And that if you want to respond, all you do is 'wake;ct Shut up you dumb noob;sleep'?

Skye

I usually just use the opportunity to take a bathroom break or get a snack or something. Stretch your legs!

Synbios

After draining my endurance bashing with drawslash, I switch to using Shin Burst while my endurance recovers. When my willpower gets low from using burst, I switch back to drawslash.

2efficient4humans

Nim

@Synbios: Whenever it comes to that, I always feel somehow superbly awesome, like... I can barely move my body anymore, so I'll just kill you with my soul!!!

Eld

Synbios said:

After draining my endurance bashing with drawslash, I switch to using Shin Burst while my endurance recovers. When my willpower gets low from using burst, I switch back to drawslash.

2efficient4humans

Bashing with drawslash actually drains your endurance?

Kakotas

Suggestion for limitations might be something akin to this (seeing as different classes require different training this RP makes sense)

Alignment Classes: Occultist, Apostate, Priest, Paladin, Infernal (Exclusive class-you can only choose one side chaos/good/evil)

Secondary Classes
Martial Classes: Knights, Monks, Bladmasters, Paladin, Infernal
Magic Classes: Magi, Sylvan, Druid, Shaman, Occultist
Support Classes: Jester, Sentinel, Alchemist, Priest, Apostate


Your Alignment class determines which secondary classes you may take (IE no infernal paladins or infernal priests). But further your primary secondary class determines your ability at learning secondary classes. So if you start as a Good Alignment character you can be paladin/priest but can't be infernal/occultist/etc. Then you choose your first secondary (Martial/Magic/Support) that means you will be able to learn your primary class and any classes that share that classification fairly easily but another classification would either cost you more lessons or would possibly face some limited restrictions based on the combination. Not sure exactly but that would be a good start for RP sake and for limiting the initial startup sake.

As always you could change your secondary class but it would scrap everything you'd learned in it back to skilled just like the system is/was now.

Decan

I cant wait for multiclassing, because then I can play a class that isnt pk nerfed. Too bad all the flavour of the city's Houses will be comprimised to do it, but whats most important here is doubling the amount of credits someone has to buy to be trans "everything", right?

Shirszae

@Kakotas Overcomplicated and needless. The only necessary restriction is on learning alignment classes, of which you seem to have forgotten sylvan, druids, and sentinels.

Caladbolg

Decan said:

I cant wait for multiclassing, because then I can play a class that isnt pk nerfed. Too bad all the flavour of the city's Houses will be comprimised to do it, but whats most important here is doubling the amount of credits someone has to buy to be trans "everything", right?

It might've already been said I didn't real the full thread and I was dormant awhile, Are we completely sure that Houses are not all going to become the way the new Targossan houses are to be? A completely removal from what classes can join said house. Personally I thought this idea was pretty cool except in a few suitations (Snake houses).

Decan

Caladbolg said:

Decan said:

I cant wait for multiclassing, because then I can play a class that isnt pk nerfed. Too bad all the flavour of the city's Houses will be comprimised to do it, but whats most important here is doubling the amount of credits someone has to buy to be trans "everything", right?

It might've already been said I didn't real the full thread and I was dormant awhile, Are we completely sure that Houses are not all going to become the way the new Targossan houses are to be? A completely removal from what classes can join said house. Personally I thought this idea was pretty cool except in a few suitations (Snake houses).

Pretty sure thats the idea. (Even snake houses and yes the Occultists too) I suppose the point is to basically segregate the non-comms from the fighters. Might not be a bad thing, but obviously a few Houses who have clear linage based on class will be hurt.

Vayne

Decan said:

I cant wait for multiclassing, because then I can play a class that isnt pk nerfed. Too bad all the flavour of the city's Houses will be comprimised to do it, but whats most important here is doubling the amount of credits someone has to buy to be trans "everything", right?

It won't compromise the flavour of the Houses, just force them to actually be responsible for creating their own instead of basing it off a class.

Cooper

Decan said:

I cant wait for multiclassing, because then I can play a class that isnt pk nerfed. Too bad all the flavour of the city's Houses will be comprimised to do it, but whats most important here is doubling the amount of credits someone has to buy to be trans "everything", right?

Considering the massive buffs serpents got recently, and how good they already were, your statement is hilarious.

Caladbolg

Vayne said:

Decan said:

I cant wait for multiclassing, because then I can play a class that isnt pk nerfed. Too bad all the flavour of the city's Houses will be comprimised to do it, but whats most important here is doubling the amount of credits someone has to buy to be trans "everything", right?

It won't compromise the flavour of the Houses, just force them to actually be responsible for creating their own instead of basing it off a class.

Agreed. I liked the Sentarri but I never felt at home in that house with everything being referenced to Kai when Caladbolg was a Blademaster, and being told everything you see as Kai consider it shen.. Just didn't pan out in my mind as good roleplay when im terrible at it to start with.

Vayne

Well, it will give people the options of joining whatever house best suits their interests. Say you want to play x class in x city, you have two options: play a rogue or join the house that has rights to that class. This is especially problematic when the House that has rights to that class is dead, dysfunctional, or just not the place for you. Multiclass will give you the flexibility and ability to expand your roleplay while simultaneously putting pressure on houses to actually embody an ethos to attract members if they want to succeed.

For example, I have talked with Mannimar many times how awesome it would be to have runewardens, which is currently the Black Lotus's, in the Spiritwalkers and all the cool spiritual knight defending the physical and spiritual worlds and such. However, I recognize that would be a niche role, since those who like combat tend to pick knightly classes and by extension combat oriented houses like the Lotus. Thus, as good as an idea runies in the SW might be, I don't think you could justify taking them from the BL, it would likely hurt the game overall. However, multiclass allows those niche players to play a SW runie while the mainstream players can still filter into the BL. Everyone is happy!

People are worried that mismatched classes will ruin the atmosphere of some of the houses, but I do not see the big issue, a class should not define the character. True some classes are more aligned than others but that will be considered in the implementation. However, most could fit into the various mentalities and ethos of the Houses with no real detriment I think. Furthermore, the houses are free to kick whoever they want out last time I checked. Likewise, if you develop a certain culture, you are naturally going to attract certain players. So again...it won't ruin anything unless the houses are too lazy to adapt and actually create an environment people can become engaged in and enjoy.

Kakotas

Shirszae said:

@Kakotas Overcomplicated and needless. The only necessary restriction is on learning alignment classes, of which you seem to have forgotten sylvan, druids, and sentinels.

Actually I haven't I have other thoughts on Eleusis which don't belong in this forum. Many of which Eleusians would like but it would require some concessions. But that is a topic for a different thread. If you must include them as an alignment then so be it I think they are stronger as a force for nature without being considered an exclusive alignment but what do I know I'm probably just going senile in my old age.

Decan

Vayne said:

Well, it will give people the options of joining whatever house best suits their interests. Say you want to play x class in x city, you have two options: play a rogue or join the house that has rights to that class. This is especially problematic when the House that has rights to that class is dead, dysfunctional, or just not the place for you. Multiclass will give you the flexibility and ability to expand your roleplay while simultaneously putting pressure on houses to actually embody an ethos to attract members if they want to succeed.

For example, I have talked with Mannimar many times how awesome it would be to have runewardens, which is currently the Black Lotus's, in the Spiritwalkers and all the cool spiritual knight defending the physical and spiritual worlds and such. However, I recognize that would be a niche role, since those who like combat tend to pick knightly classes and by extension combat oriented houses like the Lotus. Thus, as good as an idea runies in the SW might be, I don't think you could justify taking them from the BL, it would likely hurt the game overall. However, multiclass allows those niche players to play a SW runie while the mainstream players can still filter into the BL. Everyone is happy!

People are worried that mismatched classes will ruin the atmosphere of some of the houses, but I do not see the big issue, a class should not define the character. True some classes are more aligned than others but that will be considered in the implementation. However, most could fit into the various mentalities and ethos of the Houses with no real detriment I think. Furthermore, the houses are free to kick whoever they want out last time I checked. Likewise, if you develop a certain culture, you are naturally going to attract certain players. So again...it won't ruin anything unless the houses are too lazy to adapt and actually create an environment people can become engaged in and enjoy.

As many positive future possibilities that could be mentioned of how great the new system could be, there and obvious drawback. If there are x amount of houses per city, and each of these houses fill a predefined 'role' for the city, there is a certain 'cookie cutter' approach to the problem. That problem is certain houses are simply unsuccessful. Do I think that the cookie cutter approach cures that? Yes it does. However, I think that if a House based its ideals on a class they should not be belittled when there are houses who have not based ideals on anything concrete. 

Also, there is still the same option for 'abuse' in the House system. Say I join the combat House. They may personally not like me, and vote to cast me out based on that dislike, and not that I didnt follow their rules or be combative enough. Then as a combatant, where could I go? Because the Houses will accept all classes I can stay in the city, yes. But I cant pursue my ambition of combat as fervently because the combative house kicked me out. Not to mention you get a ton of Alpha PK males in a House together, the drama will likely ensue. 

At the end of the day you have to do whats right for the credit sales, and multiclass is whats right there. Spinning it to sound like the changes will be nothing but positive is just feeding into the hype. Lets be realistic, Achaea is a business, sales are what drive the company, you get sales by catering to the masses. The same problems will still manifest themselves(mostly favoritism), they will just look a little different than they did before.

Arditi

@Decan, you're overly pessimistic and cynical about the future to come, and I say this as someone whose first act as Nagaraja was to draft a letter of resignation and save it to my hard drive.

Make the change you want to see in your organization. A: Nobody's going to hand it to you, and B: Even if they did, you wouldn't want it because they didn't include X and Y.

Vayne

Yes, IRE is a business and it is in their best interest to keep their customers satisfied by making a better product. Credit sales may be increased by this but player retention by making the game more enjoyable seems to be the goal here, seeing the other updates and overhauls coming into play in the near future. As I said, a house can choose who it allows to be a member regardless of any factor. If a one class house doesn't want a certain class, kick them out. I just think it present far more benefit, depth, and potential to the game then the ad hoc set up that has evolved into many of the current houses. Politics will be in the houses regardless, that is part of the game. The houses will not be cookie cutters, you can still have fighters, ritualistic, scholars etc. in various houses, some will just have more emphasis on one or another as they already do, just without the class restrictions.

Decan

Arditi said:

@Decan, you're overly pessimistic and cynical about the future to come, and I say this as someone whose first act as Nagaraja was to draft a letter of resignation and save it to my hard drive.

Make the change you want to see in your organization. A: Nobody's going to hand it to you, and B: Even if they did, you wouldn't want it because they didn't include X and Y.

@Arditi Its not pessimism its just that no one seems to think of all the possible outcomes, even the scary bad ones no one wants to talk about. I have no problem pointing out the flaws while everyone else is content to pat themselves on the back for a job well done. Life, just like Achaea, is not filled with only gumdrops and lollipops. Don't fault me for reminding you.

Back onto the subject of Multiclass though: If all the Houses accept all (or most) Classes then one should expect the average number of HHELP files to double, triple, or even quadruple in some cases depending on what was already available. Each class will have to have certain learning points to hit for novice training and each class will need to have the relevant information for that class included in HHELPs. Someone's got some writing to do!

Antonius

Decan said:

Back onto the subject of Multiclass though: If all the Houses accept all (or most) Classes then one should expect the average number of HHELP files to double, triple, or even quadruple in some cases depending on what was already available. Each class will have to have certain learning points to hit for novice training and each class will need to have the relevant information for that class included in HHELPs. Someone's got some writing to do!

City novicehood will have been implemented well before we get multiclass, so all of that introductory basic training (including what lessons they need to learn) should be covered by their City. The only minor sticking point is Houses that allow cityless members or those from other cities; however, this is perhaps a good time to cut that out and start forging factional city identities that include Houses working for their cities towards common goal, rather than acting in their own interests first.

Prythe

Valdus said:

I just want all of you to be prepared that this could take as much as a RL year to be implemented. It's not right around the corner.

So, bear that in mind.

I don't think it will be that long as it has already been announced because :: drum roll :: they wouldn't want people to wait on "switching classes" (and the credit purchases which come along with doing so) because they know multi-class is coming.

As for Prythe - wow. I never wanted to be anything other than Druid, but the possibility of being something in addition to Druid, I will definitely have to ponder.

Trevize

Prythe said:

Valdus said:

I just want all of you to be prepared that this could take as much as a RL year to be implemented. It's not right around the corner.

So, bear that in mind.

I don't think it will be that long as it has already been announced because :: drum roll :: they wouldn't want people to wait on "switching classes" (and the credit purchases which come along with doing so) because they know multi-class is coming.

Ship plans first announced:

ANNOUNCE NEWS #838                                      (08/29/2001 at 11:44)  

From   : Sarapis, the Logos

To     : Everyone

Subject: new areas!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Finally, work on the systems necessary to implement the ocean (and thus

ships) has finally begun. It's quite a lot of work, but Aeyr is working

on it more or less full-time.

Ships released:

ANNOUNCE NEWS #2620                                     (09/26/2007 at 03:33)  

From   : Maya, the Great Mother

To     : Everyone

Subject: Ships!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, ships are here!

Arador

If you very kicked out of a house under multiclass then you can join another still. Currently if the city does not allow rogues as is the case with Mhaldor, if I get booted from the Maldaathi I have to lose half my lessons and change class. So no things will not be any worse. They will be the same or better than they currently are.

Gibbi

So when the trade skills get split off, will transmutations get metallurgy from alchemy, or will transmutations still be dependant on being an alchemist?

I really would love to be able to go back to being a magi, and still be able to gather primes and make tonics and minerals and whatnot.

Trevize

I'm not aware of a definitive answer to what they'll be doing to tradeskills. But my initial thought is if we're going to make miniskills out of concotions/alchemy/forging, then I'd like to see them split up.

Forging to Weapon Forging and Armour Forging.

Concoctions to Harvesting and Concoctions.

Alchemy to Minerals and Tonics/Balms

That said, not sure how primes would fit in...