Paladin Classleads + Addiction Change

Arditi

Tesha said:

Your first mistake is you were using venoms on a serpent.

Your second mistake is you were fighting a serpent.

Your third mistake is you were targeting a serpent.

@Tesha and I finally agree on something. Next we'll have dogs and cats living together, it'll be anarchy.

Jacen

Silas said:

I'd sooner have an active ability to strip AF/BW, since cleansing hasn't been terribly effective at hindering infiltration in the past, but what can you do.

Hey, at least you have a chance at stripping AF/BW

Wynedere

I don't see why eye sigils can't just strip af and bw like they do with phase.

Iocun

Well, phase is far superior to af/bw in the whole infiltration/doing-stuff-secretly area, so af/bw were made to be better for escape purposes instead.

Nevertheless, I do believe that things like bw/af should have non class specific counters of some sort. Abilities like that are too powerful to be only counterable by specific factions.

Jovolo

Santar said:

Wow, please just delete your post. You have no idea what you're talking about.

Who is this aimed at? I see no post about it

Oh, Isaiah. Nvm

Jovolo

Iocun said:

Well, phase is far superior to af/bw in the whole infiltration/doing-stuff-secretly area, so af/bw were made to be better for escape purposes instead.

Nevertheless, I do believe that things like bw/af should have non class specific counters of some sort. Abilities like that are too powerful to be only counterable by specific factions.

Due to the eq cost, it would make the abilities almost useless. The willppwer drain is already very high, and the tripping of mindnet and room reporting abilities already make it an escape ability far more than infiltration. If they can be countered by everyone in the game, why do the abilities exist? They can already be -prevented-, let alone allow a readily available counter to exist. They are strong, yes, but introduce more strong abilities than more hard counters to strong abilities? I believe you're ACC, so...

Eld

Jovolo said:

Well, phase is far superior to af/bw in the whole infiltration/doing-stuff-secretly area, so af/bw were made to be better for escape purposes instead.

Nevertheless, I do believe that things like bw/af should have non class specific counters of some sort. Abilities like that are too powerful to be only counterable by specific factions.

Due to the eq cost, it would make the abilities almost useless. The willppwer drain is already very high, and the tripping of mindnet and room reporting abilities already make it an escape ability far more than infiltration. If they can be countered by everyone in the game, why do the abilities exist? They can already be -prevented-, let alone allow a readily available counter to exist. They are strong, yes, but introduce more strong abilities than more hard counters to strong abilities? I believe you're ACC, so...

Not sure why you quoted Iocun instead of Wynedere on this. Iocun just said that it should have some non faction-specific counter, not that eye sigils should be that counter.

Strata

Jovolo said:

Well, phase is far superior to af/bw in the whole infiltration/doing-stuff-secretly area, so af/bw were made to be better for escape purposes instead.

Nevertheless, I do believe that things like bw/af should have non class specific counters of some sort. Abilities like that are too powerful to be only counterable by specific factions.

Due to the eq cost, it would make the abilities almost useless. The willppwer drain is already very high, and the tripping of mindnet and room reporting abilities already make it an escape ability far more than infiltration. If they can be countered by everyone in the game, why do the abilities exist? They can already be -prevented-, let alone allow a readily available counter to exist. They are strong, yes, but introduce more strong abilities than more hard counters to strong abilities? I believe you're ACC, so...

Jovolo

Eld said:

Jovolo said:

Iocun said:

Well, phase is far superior to af/bw in the whole infiltration/doing-stuff-secretly area, so af/bw were made to be better for escape purposes instead.

Nevertheless, I do believe that things like bw/af should have non class specific counters of some sort. Abilities like that are too powerful to be only counterable by specific factions.

Due to the eq cost, it would make the abilities almost useless. The willppwer drain is already very high, and the tripping of mindnet and room reporting abilities already make it an escape ability far more than infiltration. If they can be countered by everyone in the game, why do the abilities exist? They can already be -prevented-, let alone allow a readily available counter to exist. They are strong, yes, but introduce more strong abilities than more hard counters to strong abilities? I believe you're ACC, so...

Not sure why you quoted Iocun instead of Wynedere on this. Iocun just said that it should have some non faction-specific counter, not that eye sigils should be that counter.


That's what I was replying to. A readily available counter to af/bw would render the abilities almost useless (if the counter is in the realm of flash), I made the rest of my point in the post.

@Strata what up?

Iocun

I definitely don't think it should be as simple as an eye sigil. It doesn't have to be an easy-to-use counter, a cheap counter, a complete counter, a fast counter, or a counter available to everyone. And I do not believe bw/af are OP currently. But moving counters to strong abilities away from factions to more neutral ground would facilitate the true separation of cities. Non-factionality doesn't necessarily mean that everyone can constantly spam a perfect counter to bw/af.

If any counter to af/bw would render them useless, they would already be completely useless against any city that currently has forestals/devotionists.

Santar

Should have just added an active counter to devotion, that way every city that has to fight people with AF/BW regularly has a class that can un-af/BW them. Druid/Sylvan/Priest/Paladin.

Making eye sigil counter AF/BW would be pretty dumb, though. 

Priest/Paladin definitely should have a counter though in the same realm as the quarterstaff flash thing. AFing shouldn't be as guaranteed of an escape as it is now. It wouldn't really hurt the infiltration ability that much, since it'd be fairly difficult to flash someone out while they're moving, but it'd prevent people from AFing to escape infront of a room full of people.

Sabiru

Cities with Druid/Sylvan/Priest/Paladin aren't the only cities who fight af/bw regularly, they're just the only cities who bitch about it.

Santar

Let me rephrase. If Druid/Sylvan/Priest/Paladin all had an unaf/unbw skill, then every city that doesn't have AFer/BWers would be able to reveal AFer/BWers. Mhaldor, Ashtan, Hashan all have people that have astralform/blackwind. Hashan is a little bit of an outlier here, but Mhaldor/Ashtan have about the same amount of people with the skill, so they're on roughly even terms as is.

Sabiru

If there's a genuinely persuasive argument in there, I sure can't find it.

Santar

That's because you're delusional.

Your statement above about Targossas, Cyrene, Hashan not being the only cities that fight AF/BW regularly is untrue. 95% of the conflict involving people who AF/BW is targeted at these cities. Why would anyone else other than these people complain about the skill if it's not being used against them or, better yet, they're the ones abusing it? 

Tesha

You can astralform (and maybe blackwind) while flying. Cleansing does not hit flying people. Occultists are arguably better than serpents for unstoppable infiltration, since you can throw eyes in the air, and only druids/sylvans can flash. Paladin/Priest should definitely have an active counter, or cleansing should be buffed. Or give us an ability that prevents people from targeting us for 10 seconds after we burst, similar to triggered AF/BW. That would be fine, too. We do not even need mog/soulcage.

Sabiru

Well shit, if you're going to bring statistics to the table then I've got nothing.

I deal with astral mog/astral relatively frequently with absolutely no avenue for stripping it (see: cleansing/piety, grove flash), I don't complain here because it's just not that bad.

Sabiru

There are also a bunch of abilities non-devotionists wish they had, by the way.

Santar

Sabiru said:

Well shit, if you're going to bring statistics to the table then I've got nothing.

I deal with astral mog/astral relatively frequently with absolutely no avenue for stripping it (see: cleansing/piety, grove flash), I don't complain here because it's just not that bad.

The difference here is that your city has just as many people with pretty much the exact same skill. Of course you don't want to nerf the skill, because nerfing the Occultist skill would likely mean having your necro skill nerfed as well. You're more tolerant to dealing with it because you have access to the same skill and can use it against your far more frequent enemies of Eleusis/Targ/Cyrene who neither have the skill or have a counter for it(excepting Eleusis).

Dunn

You all sound like lobbyists for really shitty movements.

Sabiru

Eh, maybe. If it ever meant that I couldn't kill someone who I wanted to kill though it would still annoy me - it just hasn't.

There are plenty of parallels though, particularly between Ashtan and Targossas, in the existence of powerful abilities which one faction has and the other one doesn't have the capacity to remove.

Santar

AF/BW neither annoy or cause me any grief. I just think it'd be for the best interest of the game's balance if devotionists had grove flash. For the record, I held that opinion even when my character was neutral. The forestals being restricted to Eleusis kind of screwed over the good-aligned factions by taking away their ability to strip AF/BW so I've always felt like something else needed to be given to even that back up.

Wynedere

Ok ok, I take back my comment about eye sigils.

Dunn

It's okay, Myradere. I'll forgive you.

Shunsui

repurpose silver in alchemy to emulate grove flash, make alchemists useful outside of being portable mini piety At least that way all factions have something to deal with it, not just Good and forestals

Santar

Shunsui said:

repurpose silver in alchemy to emulate grove flash, make alchemists useful outside of being portable mini piety At least that way all factions have something to deal with it, not just Good and forestals

That's honestly a pretty good idea. Like I was saying about forestals being restricted - If alchemists took over this role, then every city would have someone who could deal with AF/BW. It might be better to add it to alchemists than devotionists. I approve.

Arador

But then Alchemists would have to come out of the lab or caves. Think of the poor Alchemists!

Mizik

Should just let forest classes mingle in cities again. Miztinel wants to stage a comeback.

Kyrra

I thought Targossas had druids or something, since they accept forestals and alchemists. Can't they flash for you?

Synbios

Arador said:

But then Alchemists would have to come out of the lab or caves. Think of the poor Alchemists!

About time, too. I heard that nicely-tanned Alchemists are all the rage nowadays.