Paladin Classleads + Addiction Change

Jovolo

The only possible thing I see is delaying asthma curing. If you prio asthma and get hit with vardrax/kalmia, they can just follow with kalmia/gecko. If you prio addiction > asthma, then darkshade/vardrax for 50% chance to use all ginseng in rift. You can prio addiction and then delay asthma curing, but that leads you open to being kelp stacked with gecko and epseth/epseth = vivisect in that state. 

As far as I can see, it also makes Damnation almost impossible to prevent too... (What with the kelp stack, instead of becoming a 66% chance to cure, it becomes a 33%, and even down to 25% with vernalius/slike on head. If the Paladin had rapiers at 2s, you're boned.) though Runewardens don't get much apart from free damage for like 5 seconds before eat bloodroot/flee, so as long as you can tank that you're fine.

Vivisect was already strong in its capacity to riftlock (as much as outrifting lots of herbs was a preventative measure, not that many people did it)  Now from what I see it's impossible to not be riftlocked or vivi'd thanks to vardrax. At least until it becomes legal again for Infernals to use. 

It probably should be changed in how easy it is to use, become focusable, or be placed back as unenvenomable and given to specific classes in their abilities that will benefit from the change i.e druid

Triak

I can't help but smile after hearing the howling about the rite nerf, which everyone knew was coming.  (and of course most of the people complaining loved the occie doppie nerf)

Tesha

My harmonics! Does this mean POES will get fixed soon? 

Bug ID: 7152

Reported on: 2013/04/12 19:47:07   Assigned to: Nobody

Category: High                     Status: Untested

Report Text: 

The faster equilibrium portion of POES/Aeternam does not work. It is almost 3.5 to play continuo 

without it, and 3.5 to play poes continuo - here is a log displaying it. http://pastebin.com/HCggsVhY

Dunn

Yep that's terrifying for anything that can break limbs and deliver venoms. Time to reprioritize addiction.

I guess you need a new hobby that doesn't involve riting entire areas. I could see the timers only being put on things like warding/cleansing/piety, though. 

Tesha

Rites everywhere was a bit silly, yeah. No other way to take you out of astralform (and you can even astralform while flying to completely be safe) so it was our only option, unfortunately. 

Antonius

@Jovolo Did you miss that it was part of the Paladin classleads? It's intended as a buff for Paladins to make riftlocks and therefore damnation possible. Making it unenvenomable or focusable would completely undo that.

Tesha

Can defensive harmonics be left out of the out-of-room harmonics nerf? That would prevent it from affecting stuff like canticle for forgers and grossly fast decay rates for bashing while keeping the nerf against fire-and-forget aoe room mechanics.

You can just make addiction a rite effect with demons - woah, holy no way. I have no idea. Maybe just make it a paladin-only venom?

Blujixapug

I totally understand the appeal of blanketing areas with rites. I find similar enjoyment in stacking dominos. But I am also happy to see the layered set-and-forget nature of AOE entrenchment effects like vibes + harms + rites aerially bombarded with the satellite-mounted nerf laser.

Sidonia

Sentinels need this more than paladins

Tesha

Everything is going to be so terrifying with this. Especially Sentinels, oh my goodness. Good thing Targleusas is the future. I cannot tell if I am overthinking this or if things are going to be that scary. There should be some protection in the fact that there are both plants and minerals, but that is not very much. 

Carmell

Blujixapug said:

I totally understand the appeal of blanketing areas with rites. I find similar enjoyment in stacking dominos. But I am also happy to see the layered set-and-forget nature of AOE entrenchment effects like vibes + harms + rites aerially bombarded with the satellite-mounted nerf laser.

Well the problem I see is with cleansing as that is the only way we have to pull someone out of blackwind or astralform and I know that an occie or necro person can blow through a group of those rites and be away from them before cleansing ever hits them.  50 seconds for a none forked person really is a waste of devo at that point.

Antonius

Then don't use it if you're not in the room. That's kind of the point of the change.

Rangor

Jesters disarm traps really fast. Nerf jesters.

Strata

Jovolo said:

It probably should be changed in how easy it is to use, become focusable, or be placed back as unenvenomable and given to specific classes in their abilities that will benefit from the change i.e druid

I totally agree. This is too OP. Might as well nerf shrugging and get rid of Lupine's while we're at it too. Anything to make knights easier to play, I'm all for it. Monks too, mmmmm... axes.

We also need more non-artie runeblades that are faster than Thoth's + do damage.

Sylvance

Tesha said:

 I have no idea. Maybe just make it a paladin-only venom?

lolwat?

Jovolo

Strata said:

Jovolo said:

It probably should be changed in how easy it is to use, become focusable, or be placed back as unenvenomable and given to specific classes in their abilities that will benefit from the change i.e druid

I totally agree. This is too OP. Might as well nerf shrugging and get rid of Lupine's while we're at it too. Anything to make knights easier to play, I'm all for it. Monks too, mmmmm... axes.

We also need more non-artie runeblades that are faster than Thoth's + do damage.

How did you get the impression anything of what I said to buff Knights or that I intended to buff them regarding Vardrax?

Jules

Sylvance said:

Tesha said:

 I have no idea. Maybe just make it a paladin-only venom?

lolwat?

As excited as I am about a shiny new venom, what was the rationale to giving it to everyone?

Sidonia

Jules said:

Sylvance said:

Tesha said:

 I have no idea. Maybe just make it a paladin-only venom?

lolwat?

As excited as I am about a shiny new venom, what was the rationale to giving it to everyone?

Presumably something to do with paladins not being the only class that uses riftlocks.

Strata

Jovolo said:

Strata said:

Jovolo said:

It probably should be changed in how easy it is to use, become focusable, or be placed back as unenvenomable and given to specific classes in their abilities that will benefit from the change i.e druid

I totally agree. This is too OP. Might as well nerf shrugging and get rid of Lupine's while we're at it too. Anything to make knights easier to play, I'm all for it. Monks too, mmmmm... axes.

We also need more non-artie runeblades that are faster than Thoth's + do damage.

How did you get the impression anything of what I said to buff Knights or that I intended to buff them regarding Vardrax?

Vardrax is fine. I'm sorry if I was looking at things as a buff to knights as you clearly didn't say that.... you even mentioned druid - which is also not a knight. @Tesha said paladin-only venom... yeah...

I'm too much of a noob to be saying anything about that.

This is potentially a serious buff to everyone who uses venoms in general. There have been times, before both of our characters lives, when venoms were banned, @Jovolo. Imagine a sapience where it was nearly impossible to get them. Mind you, curing systems were very primitive or non-existent for most people at the time, so it all balanced out quite well. My point remains: Give all the classes a chance to see what they can do with it before assuming it should only be given to specific classes.

Makarios

The rationale was pretty much exactly what was put forward in classlead 172.

Jovolo

It is a buff. The problem is, it's a buff to the point where it's now basically impossible to not die to Infernals, and possibly Paladins/Runewardens/Shamans. At least before, Vivisect was entirely preventable, and you were left dealing only with disembowel when you learned to prevent it, much like the other Knight classes. Paladin's could have used something to make Damnation more interesting, by forcing a certain way of curing and allowing them to experiment with riftlocks, manalocks moreso, or even just easier prepping for disembowel (About the only real great upside of vivisect against decent opponents) - any wishes for an unstoppable Damnation no matter how you cure is crazy, and doesn't have much relevance in the context of Knight classes.

I understand this change was aimed at allowing rift locks to be viable, and intended as a buff to Paladins for sticking hellsight, but the far-reaching consequences of allowing Vardrax to be envenomed by all is what I'm arguing should be considered more than everyone currently saying "No it's fine" or "Eh, it might be strong, but it's good for Paladins which is the intention" - totally ignoring the fact that this change does not only affect Paladins? 

It's an exercise in futility, though. I've long since had a tarred reputation here, but I like combat too much to stop discussing it in these open forums Please don't flame me, just say why you disagree.

Will just sit back and see how it plays out though... can't test it first hand, but I guess we'll see

Jules

Thanks, I was confused by the nechamandra in 172, but check the numbers around it and found this:

Report #171

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Submitted by: Iocun          Status      : Approved

Skill       : Miscellaneous  Ability     : Rift locks

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Problem:

Many classes used to be able to lock opponents with rift locks, some better, some worse. This added 

versatility to many classes, giving particularly physical damage classes other options than break-

and-damage finishers. This has become much harder nowadays, due to many curing systems now keeping 

sizable stacks of herbs outside the rift at any time.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Solution #1:

Create a new affliction, "gluttony". Preferably, this should be given by a new, envenomable venom, 

in order to give most classes access to it. When afflicted with gluttony, any attempt to eat a herb 

will result in eating -all- herbs of that type that are currently in the victim's inventory. 

Gluttony should not be focusable, and curable by a herb/mineral (perhaps ginseng, or perhaps 

lobelia/bellwort to make it harder to hide it behind a stack, due to the other afflictions of that 

herb being focusable).

Solution #2:

Instead of adding a new affliction, change the affliction Addiction to work as described above. 

Since only few classes have access to addiction, either add it to the skills of more classes, or 

create a venom capable of delivering it.

Solution #3:

Give the described affect to a currently existing, envenomable venom. This would be the easiest 

solution, but I can't think of any current venom this would truly fit for.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Decision:

Approved for testing

Makarios

Ah, yes, 171.

There definitely will be significant consequences to go with this change, but we'll be keeping an eye on it to make sure things aren't out of hand.

Jonners

Jovolo said:

It is a buff. The problem is, it's a buff to the point where it's now basically impossible to not die to Infernals, and possibly Paladins/Runewardens/Shamans. At least before, Vivisect was entirely preventable, and you were left dealing only with disembowel when you learned to prevent it, much like the other Knight classes. Paladin's could have used something to make Damnation more interesting, by forcing a certain way of curing and allowing them to experiment with riftlocks, manalocks moreso, or even just easier prepping for disembowel (About the only real great upside of vivisect against decent opponents) - any wishes for an unstoppable Damnation no matter how you cure is crazy, and doesn't have much relevance in the context of Knight classes.

I understand this change was aimed at allowing rift locks to be viable, and intended as a buff to Paladins for sticking hellsight, but the far-reaching consequences of allowing Vardrax to be envenomed by all is what I'm arguing should be considered more than everyone currently saying "No it's fine" or "Eh, it might be strong, but it's good for Paladins which is the intention" - totally ignoring the fact that this change does not only affect Paladins? 

It's an exercise in futility, though. I've long since had a tarred reputation here, but I like combat too much to stop discussing it in these open forums Please don't flame me, just say why you disagree.

Will just sit back and see how it plays out though... can't test it first hand, but I guess we'll see

Sooo tempted to rickroll... *resists urge*

Strata

Makarios said:

Ah, yes, 171.

There definitely will be significant consequences to go with this change, but we'll be keeping an eye on it to make sure things aren't out of hand.

If not already, please consider what @Santar, @Ellodin, etc mentioned earlier: that the mechanics should be modified a little bit so instead of all of the herbs being consumed, they return to your rift. (edit: my opinion: only in arena)

Tesha

Why? There was no drawback before to having a large cache other than dropping it when you die. Now there is.

Jovolo

It should rift it instead of out of arena too, imo, but also definitely inside the arena as well.

Iocun

Man, I'm so OP. I draft up a classlead, later delete it rather than submitting it, and it's still being put into effect! Take that, you unsuccessfully classleading masses!

Sidonia

When I read the classlead my first thought was that somebody was going to buy/harvest like 2k of something and forget to inr and eat it all in one go

Iocun

Sidonia said:

When I read the classlead my first thought was that somebody was going to buy/harvest like 2k of something and forget to inr and eat it all in one go

I think the chance of that someone dcing/logging out, dropping all those herbs, and getting them stolen far exceeds the chance of this person getting afflicted by addiction out of nowhere, not curing it, then developing a sudden hunger for bloodroot and eating 2k of them.