Combat Logs

Dracen

Ernam said:

Khorus said:

None, outside of breaking arms, which still requires a series of hits. Outside of slow prepping a quad break by whoring shield there's literally no way to hinder them as DB, as well that was with morningstars, our fast weapon, a 2.2-2.5 balance cost. In that fight I managed to get I think four or five hits in before the damage was too high.

This is incredibly, incredibly false.  I mean, I'd be hard-pressed to come up with something less true.  BMs have a lonnng list of methods to hinder opponents or otherwise slow their affliction/prep rate.

Also, a slow-prepped quad break (lacks affliction/mana momentum) is completely avoidable.  Slow prepping is extremely lame, but easy to not die to (unless you let them slow prep you THEN build up affliction momentum, which would be very foolish).

He was talking about himself. DB not BM.

Ernam

Dracen said:

Ernam said:

Khorus said:

None, outside of breaking arms, which still requires a series of hits. Outside of slow prepping a quad break by whoring shield there's literally no way to hinder them as DB, as well that was with morningstars, our fast weapon, a 2.2-2.5 balance cost. In that fight I managed to get I think four or five hits in before the damage was too high.

This is incredibly, incredibly false.  I mean, I'd be hard-pressed to come up with something less true.  BMs have a lonnng list of methods to hinder opponents or otherwise slow their affliction/prep rate.

Also, a slow-prepped quad break (lacks affliction/mana momentum) is completely avoidable.  Slow prepping is extremely lame, but easy to not die to (unless you let them slow prep you THEN build up affliction momentum, which would be very foolish).

He was talking about himself. DB not BM.

DB has a TON of hindrance too, that's even worse.  I can barely fight against them, because my arms are pretty much constantly being broken.  You also have some affliction choices, and you can always just leave.

Mizik

Dual blunt hindrance is horrible.

And yeah, Blademaster prone impale is dumb.

Santar

There's an easy solution if they want to deny BM the ability to spam prone/impale. Just make it require a leg break to prone them. I don't care either way. But it's a simple fix.

Exelethril

How will they get an impaleslash off in that case though? Voidfist rng?

Jovolo

They can still do it during their break chain. Pre-Impaleslash is such a frustrating feature, especially when it's as easy as pommel/knee-impale. The class has been babied for too long now. I think for the speed of their impale it would be fair to impose a requirement of (paralysis | broken left leg | broken right leg) and don't allow easy impales just off prone. 

Zulah

Jovolo said:

They can still do it during their break chain. Pre-Impaleslash is such a frustrating feature, especially when it's as easy as pommel/knee-impale. The class has been babied for too long now. I think for the speed of their impale it would be fair to impose a requirement of (paralysis | broken left leg | broken right leg) and don't allow easy impales just off prone. 

The class has been babied? BM is squishy, bashes worth shit, It's been nerf after nerf since it's release. Look at all the top tier fighters using BM because it's so OP! Half the skill names people are using here are wrong for BM... Khorus fought just fine every time after the first and nearly killed me two attempts. He posted his first BM fight and complained before he even knew how to fight one. Ever try fighting someone mounted as BM? What a pain in the ass trying to keep hamstring up to prevent remount after feet strike, while still getting in a knee strike (while they are hamstring/feet strike) that is timed off legs you prepped while they were mounted and no way to hinder their mounted travel.

Pommel/knee will not get you an impale. In fact why would you even be using pommel strike without an air fist or void fist first? (Pommel is to increase fist duration - it doesn't stun anymore)

After testing over and over in the arena the best example of this complaint would be if I did nothing but waited for my target to use a long balance/eq (IE: touch shield)
then: raze/kneestrike
I have less than 1 second to get an impale it hits about 50% of the time off reflex but I have to be doing NOTHING when they shield other than waiting for it.
Impale without leg break leaves me less than a second to get an impale slash or bladetwist off. It doesn't always land in time again about 50-60% of the time.

If I'm using that tactic I haven't spent the time to hamstring or leg prep which means you can simply walk away and wait off the impale slash or clot off the one twist bleed. No real fighter I've gone up against has had a single issue with that. To beat skilled fighters I have to hamstring, legbreak, impales. Which even then I've got to be on top of hamstring/feetstrike mount.
 

Jovolo

Zulah said:

The class has been babied? BM is squishy, bashes worth shit, It's been nerf after nerf since it's release. Look at all the top tier fighters using BM because it's so OP! Half the skill names people are using here are wrong for BM... Khorus fought just fine every time after the first and nearly killed me two attempts. He posted his first BM fight and complained before he even knew how to fight one. Ever try fighting someone mounted as BM? What a pain in the ass trying to keep hamstring up to prevent remount after feet strike, while still getting in a knee strike (while they are hamstring/feet strike) that is timed off legs you prepped while they were mounted and no way to hinder their mounted travel.

Pommel/knee will not get you an impale. In fact why would you even be using pommel strike without an air fist or void fist first? (Pommel is to increase fist duration - it doesn't stun anymore)

After testing over and over in the arena the best example of this complaint would be if I did nothing but waited for my target to use a long balance/eq (IE: touch shield)
then: raze/kneestrike
I have less than 1 second to get an impale it hits about 50% of the time off reflex but I have to be doing NOTHING when they shield other than waiting for it.
Impale without leg break leaves me less than a second to get an impale slash or bladetwist off. It doesn't always land in time again about 50-60% of the time.

If I'm using that tactic I haven't spent the time to hamstring or leg prep which means you can simply walk away and wait off the impale slash or clot off the one twist bleed. No real fighter I've gone up against has had a single issue with that. To beat skilled fighters I have to hamstring, legbreak, impales. Which even then I've got to be on top of hamstring/feetstrike mount.
 

The argument of class population is never a good one - look at Jester. Easily the most absurd PvP class and has been for a very long time, yet it never gets many fighters in it. Staying on top of feet/hamstring isn't hard. Just hamstring, then feet strike, then hamstring every fourth strike. That's literally it.

Pommel/Knee doesn't get you an impale? It's one of the fastest abilities in the game, and it prones. You can impale from just prone. In what world would it not get you impales? If lag is your problem, there's an in-game queueing system for that now. Impales are laughably easy to get for Blademasters, and as a result--so is impaleslash. In fact, whether it stuns or not is irrelevant to this strategy, because they can't stand up anyway due to being off balance or equilibrium, the stun is pointless. The stun was purely for affliction stacking. It is also essentially on demand hindering. 

The class has been babied. It has a huge amount of defensive and offensive power. It's a limb prep class with built in reset mechanics in the form of evade and pheonix. It has the highest innate damage mitigation in the game in Mir other than numb/apathy. The offense is based on flat curing amounts in clotting, so it's technically impossible to avoid below a certain mana threshold if they execute breaks correctly (It's surprisingly high at like 3,800), and for anyone higher than that, impaleslash introduces a % scaling element in clotting so you can shred through the mana of even Dragons with no problem. Add on to the fact that you can permanently assure impaleslash and apply it throughout the entire fight on your regular slashes which do bleeding damage, it's crazy.

I've no doubt it's up there with Jester for best PvP class.   

Zulah

Level 3 band and Nimble. Writhing the exact moment I get balance from impale triggering it to his longest EQ loss while doing nothing but waiting for it.

How about that pommel/knee strike prone DOES NOT = impale everytime

Jovolo

I'm not trying to be an asshole. I realise I come across like that because I speak pretty matter-of-factly when it comes to Achaean combat, especially on an internet medium. Sorry for that.

Really though, you didn't even pommel when he used eq, you razed instead, and he writhed free after you recovered balance meaning you could have impaled. Raze is fine because it's faster than shield, but I was talking about doing a pommel/knees after your target hits you. If anything that log proves what I said earlier. If you pommel/knee after any attack he does on you as long as it isn't a shaman curse or a sentinel reflexed handaxe, you will get an impale and impaleslash, every time.

Jacen

You have to let him attack you, then pommel/knees to prone him, leaving him prone for nearly the full duration of his attack balance/equilibrium.

Atalkez

If you impale you are guaranteed an impale slash or a twist. Every time. You can raze/prone and impale 100% of the time if you are unhindered and can use the queue to chase balance properly.

Mishgul

one day jester will be reworked, and after that day, blademaster is on the top of my blacklist.

Seftin

People aren't BM at the top end because it was all done and dusted pretty quick in terms of figuring it out and killing everyone. It's a ridiculous class and can kill pretty much anyone.

Ernam

Seftin said:

People aren't BM at the top end because it was all done and dusted pretty quick in terms of figuring it out and killing everyone. It's a ridiculous class and can kill pretty much anyone.

This is exactly the reason I quit the class.  I wasn't even near the skill cap (if there is one), and I was already finding that it was literally impossible to kill me if I Evaded/Health Trans'd/Phoenix'd/Alleviate/Fitnessed at the right time.  I also won almost every fight I got into, and I never used Bstar (incredibly overpowered) a single time.

Please understand that I'm not attributing this to my personal skill level.  I'm attributing this statement to the fact that BM is more OP than monk prior to the removal of web/axk and diminishing returns.  Most people just haven't fully figured this out yet.

Ernam

Daeir said:

And they trade off that ridiculous potency in straight up combat for being absolutely and completely neutered at any form of ranged damage/raid support abilities.

Shrug.  Dragonform.  (Also, I really disagree.  I die in raids solely because of hamstring all the time).  It's like gravehands that follows you wherever you go, and prevents Evade.  They also do insane in-room DPS, can basically guarantee kills by spamming impale/hamstring, and have the same access to Lupine Bows and meteors as everyone else in the game.

Atalkez

Make knee only prone with hamstring active. Gg.
(Or nerf Thyr speed)

Jovolo

That's not nearly enough

Jarrod

How about remove half of their ridiculous list of defensive abilities so they're actually in danger while they're attacking too.

Seftin

I agree with ... @Jarrod (eugh(<3)... One of the things the class was supposed to be was a glass cannon. They have an insane prep speed, room control (hamstring) and their defense is crazy! Mir it up if taking bad damage to prep then switch to thyr for the finisher if you want more speed, simply striking knees/impaling/bladetwisting against an opponent that does insane damage to you on their attacks is even worthwhile, as you can evade in and out and slowly drain their WP or even just stack enough bleeding passively for a Bstar as they fall into a frenzy of trying to kill you.

Prone parry(?), health-trans, shin phoenix, hamstring, evade, alleviate, fitness, it's crazy.

Make them the glass cannons they were sold as and they would be ok because you would know that they had to run, instead of stand in room, tank the damage and explode you quicker than you can prep one limb without really any sort of counter. Add in factors such as airfist and voidfist and you reach an area where you pretty much are letting them prep you incessantly non stop.

You can even completely prep a leg with the 2nd slash from legslash, likewise for arms if you don't want to hit your airfist alias. They are nuts.

Insanely fun to play, but nuts.

Darkender

Why has anyone failed to mention that literally the only classes that prone/knee spam works again would be 2h blunt knight, or regular knight that spams sketching, along with POSSIBLY Occultist in between single afflictions (Not possible with Lethargy stacked, which it will be), otherwise don't you think if we could just do that every attack you'd all be dead? Every single class now adays virtually spams paralysis stack with every ability, or has a long enough herb hinder after their attack that makes pommel/knees with followup impale pretty impossible.

Jovolo

Of course you don't do it after every single attack, but you can pretty much do it whenever you want to unless you're fighting a Shaman, Sentinel or Thoth's Serpent. All you want is to land that easy impaleslash consistently. It's also decent for bypassing parry or mitigating the chance of a dodge on crucial breaks, but they already have airfist for the former issue. 

Mizik

Darkender said:

Why has anyone failed to mention that literally the only classes that prone/knee spam works again would be 2h blunt knight, or regular knight that spams sketching, along with POSSIBLY Occultist in between single afflictions (Not possible with Lethargy stacked, which it will be), otherwise don't you think if we could just do that every attack you'd all be dead? Every single class now adays virtually spams paralysis stack with every ability, or has a long enough herb hinder after their attack that makes pommel/knees with followup impale pretty impossible.

2H slashes and rune sketches are the only things slower than Pommelstrike.

Okay.

Darkender

I'm not saying that, Mizik. I'm saying that to realistically be able to prone them then impale them the 1 second or so window (with average ms and level 3 band/nimble), is not necessarily doable against any sort of Curare stacking offense which is practically absolutely everyone in the game it seems like. You have to not be paralyzed/clumsy/lethargic in order to pull of the combo. For instance if you're fighting a snb knight he will curare every single slice nearly so he hits, if you aren't already off herb balance you can cure your para then pommel/knees, then if he didn't also clumsy you can impale, but in most real combat situations you can't realistically just rely on pommel/knees to impale. Same goes for any other class like apostate/snake/dw etc... I also forgot to add that knees/impale can be done fairly easy to use on most mages depending on how they use their golem abilities, and monks as well. Just don't act like it's super super OP. If it were that easy to just knees/impale don't you think that would be the primary offensive strategy for BM?

Mishgul

Would it be dangerous to delay the para curing until you you will get balance then eat/slash? I did that when I was infernal and didn't want paralysis to screw with my vivi, it was a a stopwatch from my previous balance that set a variable to prevent eating until 0.2s until predicted balacne recovery.

Jovolo

Darkender said:

I'm not saying that, Mizik. I'm saying that to realistically be able to prone them then impale them the 1 second or so window (with average ms and level 3 band/nimble), is not necessarily doable against any sort of Curare stacking offense which is practically absolutely everyone in the game it seems like. You have to not be paralyzed/clumsy/lethargic in order to pull of the combo. For instance if you're fighting a snb knight he will curare every single slice nearly so he hits, if you aren't already off herb balance you can cure your para then pommel/knees, then if he didn't also clumsy you can impale, but in most real combat situations you can't realistically just rely on pommel/knees to impale. Same goes for any other class like apostate/snake/dw etc... I also forgot to add that knees/impale can be done fairly easy to use on most mages depending on how they use their golem abilities, and monks as well. Just don't act like it's super super OP. If it were that easy to just knees/impale don't you think that would be the primary offensive strategy for BM?

Like I said before, no one is talking about looping pommelstrike/knees and impale over and over. Just that you could easily evade out or shield up, then pommel/knees after they hit you and you're on herb balance, then just pommel/knees-impale-impaleslash. Every single time you guarantee that they're impaleslashed for a large majority of the fight. Blademaster wasn't balanced around that. It should be fixed. 

Darkender

Any sort of pre-impaleslash on a good opponent will result in them flying immediately or resorting to defensive tactics for the duration - what's the point? You'll just be hitting your head against a wall

Antonius

If it just results in your opponent going defensive and you don't gain anything from it, and if it only works on a few classes, why exactly does it need to be possible at all?

Darkender

perhaps if you're fighting someone that isn't very good, you have legs prepped and don't want to risk going for the full quad prep you can quickly trip impale them and if they don't run after impaleslash you can double break into a brokenstar, it's just an option against some people, and it is fairly necessary unless we are to completely rely on pommel/para (doesn't work without band), voidfist RNG with pommel para, or a quad break only. it's surprisingly difficult to quad break impale/impaleslash against a very good opponent. Things like a ring of flying can make life very difficult for the quad break method. Even if you leap high right behind them there are so many variables that can completely ruin your quad prep (dodging/rebounding popping up at just the right time, a parry swap, etc...) I don't exactly see any BMs at the moment wrecking absolutely everyone so why is this even being discussed? Some nub shows that khorus is inexperienced vs. BMs and everyone cries to nerf an ability. lmao

Aerek

Except that you can ImpaleSlash them any time they hit you, so if they do that, they don't have an offense. Pommel/Knees gives you Impales for free, any time someone takes an action that uses balance or EQ longer than 1.5 seconds. There's no counterplay to that except to just not play. We've all been dealing with it, but that doesn't mean it's balanced.

Seems harsh to make Knees only work if a leg is broken, though. I like BM's ability to take advantage of long EQs and big attacks, I think it's just Pommel's 1.1 balance that makes it such a freebie. Better to give Knees a "minimum" balance time that would override Pommel's balance, but still shorter than Legslash so Legslash/Knees is unaffected. Could still abuse some of the slower classes like Magi or Monks, but I think having a short list of classes that hate fighting BMs is better than everyone.