Combat Logs

Ernam

I kindof like the concept of introducing new classes as dramatically OP, so that it kindof compensates people for the learning curve, and for the fact that nobody (initially) really has any reference for how to play the class.

That does kindof require things to be scaled back after some time though.

Terra

Ernam said:

Comparing Piety to Homunc isn't really accurate, for reasons both myself and @Terra explained.

The primary reason being that 1) Piety is easily bypassed (homunc isn't), and 2) Piety requires balance to put up after chasing (homunc does not).

Few good suggestions were put forth, hope to see some classleads submitted on it.

What bypasses piety but not homunculus? Afaik they're the same, in that regard.

Achilles

Terra said:

Ernam said:

Comparing Piety to Homunc isn't really accurate, for reasons both myself and @Terra explained.

The primary reason being that 1) Piety is easily bypassed (homunc isn't), and 2) Piety requires balance to put up after chasing (homunc does not).

Few good suggestions were put forth, hope to see some classleads submitted on it.

What bypasses piety but not homunculus? Afaik they're the same, in that regard.

There isn't other than perhaps forcing them to unenemy you.  Homunculus I assume doesn't work off enemy list since its single targeted.  Another advantage of torso though is there is a 3rd party message, piety is silent so you don't know if they are desperately trying to leave.  

Dunn

Homunc affects whoever it's aggro'd to.

Cynlael

Can force them to order homunc passive, but every Alchemist who knows what they're doing will likely have 'order homunculus attack <person>' as part of their combo, as Kuy's log shows.

Jovolo

Room hinder us inportant for basically all momentum classes, Alchemist arguably a momentum class that would be worst off without room hinder. They would be annoying, but hilariously easy to fight if they had no room hinder. It's the ginger/antimony mechanic that desperately needs a rethink.

Atalkez

Jovolo said:

Room hinder us inportant for basically all momentum classes, Alchemist arguably a momentum class that would be worst off without room hinder. They would be annoying, but hilariously easy to fight if they had no room hinder. It's the ginger/antimony mechanic that desperately needs a rethink.

If active/passive curing affected humour levels it wouldn't be so bad. Maybe adding another way to cure the humours (focus) would help. As it stands, they can afflict and build humours simultaneously but you can only cure one or the other which works tremendously in the Alchemists favor.

Also, Phoenix doesn't change humour levels either (they work through it) - is it the same for Angel Sacrifice and other like abilities?

Ernam

Consecutive ginger would be a good fix, although it'd be a serious challenge to get systems to do it right.  Server curing would be hopeless without an extremely accurate client-side system running it.

Making Alchemist a non-stop focus class would be pretty nuts since that's lead to pretty much easy-mode instakills.

Terra

Atalkez said:

Jovolo said:

Room hinder us inportant for basically all momentum classes, Alchemist arguably a momentum class that would be worst off without room hinder. They would be annoying, but hilariously easy to fight if they had no room hinder. It's the ginger/antimony mechanic that desperately needs a rethink.

If active/passive curing affected humour levels it wouldn't be so bad. Maybe adding another way to cure the humours (focus) would help. As it stands, they can afflict and build humours simultaneously but you can only cure one or the other which works tremendously in the Alchemists favor.

Also, Phoenix doesn't change humour levels either (they work through it) - is it the same for Angel Sacrifice and other like abilities?

Angel sacrifice is the most OP healing ability in the game. It probably cures enlighten, even.

But will be nerfed, I assume, eventually, so no need to care about what it does.

If by other abilities, you mean things like bloodboil/alleviate/shrugging, I assume none of those cure humours.

Atalkez

Does tree affect them at all?

Terra

No.

Ernam

Resisting... the... urge....

Will just copy/paste the pagelong list of ways to prevent/punish angel sacrifice to an e-mail when it gets classleaded.  That said, I still support having it drop rites, and should probably have a balance cost.

Terra

There is literally no way to prevent/punish sacrifice. I already explained to you why all your ways do not, and the one I thought would work actually doesn't. Honestly, if you don't think angel sacrifice is ridiculous, you probably do not know how it works. It's incredibly OP.

But let's not do this again.

Jovolo

It's blatantly going to get adjusted to be reasonable, which is fair enough.

Kuy

Terra said:

Kuy said:

1. Not complaining about him running. Did you see the epic arena timeout that was the whole point?

2. I agree, knowing when to run against an alchie is crucial.

3. Current incarnation of Torso is fairly balanced against its counterparts. It can only ever affect one person (the person the homunculus is attacking), and it's rate of fire scales with the amount of tempers on a person. If you can't get passed Torso, you're probably fully tempered. That said, I think it could be toned down a tad at the upper, more extreme levels.

4. While alchie aff pressure is strong, the only two affs they can give to help keep someone still are paralysis and stupidity. Unless that's changed, Torso is a 100% necessary mechanic.

The best way to address it would probably be to either make homunculus block not affect fly, but give alchemist vertigo [[I don't think alchemists should get vertigo: it's one of those afflictions that can really, really cause trouble in group combat and doesn't need to be everywhere]], OR make homunculus block require and use balance to initiate [[ I would suggest that homunculus torso be changed to require activation, but to take homunculus balance. Otherwise, it becomes an RNG rat-race on both ends to try to keep someone in place, but still punishes the alchemist if the target espaces while homunculus is off balance]], rather than having it automatically happen if your homunculus is attacking, and make it drop when you leave the room.

Ernam said:

I think dramatically lowering it's HP would be a fair change too, so killing it is a viable counter.  Even if it was just like 10-ish seconds to kill, that's still a TON of time for an alchemist to build stacks without being attacked themselves, and is really easy and relatively costless to resummon.

No.  Personally, I don't feel any entities should be bashable.  It's a terrible way to turn combat against those classes into who can PvE the hardest.  That said, the homunculus is often what defines the alchemist's strategy, taking on three separate types of attack that jive differently which each humour strategy.

Ernam said:

Dunn said:

Did I read correctly that proc rate increases with temper level? If so, remove that. 

It does, or at least did when initial testing was done.  I believe @Sena posted some math on it.

Taken from here:

When you know how the homunculus works, you can escape just fine. But most people seem to ommit that bit as well. The Homunculus block is dependant on your fluid level. It ranges from 25-75%. Don't run when your fluid level is topped, wait for the humour or when they inundate, then run over and over. You'll get out fairly fast. If you wait till you bleed a lot, yeah then you're dead, but you asked for it.

The beef with it is that you don't need to run from it until your fluids are super high.  [[Wrongish here, but it's a technicality.  If you don't have fitness and the alchemist sticks asthma on you, you need to run or you're going to get truelocked on the next balance, assuming the alchemist is tracking your tree touches.  If you are a fitness/shrugging user, at five stacks of phlegmatic you become true-lockable if you have asthma.  The notion that Alchemist needs to temper you fully is something everyone should do away with, or up-and-coming alchemists are going to wreck you as more people eventually start fiddling with it.]]

Azelay said:

Personally, as a new Alchemist, I wish that torso was less powerful, wracking/tempering less spammy, and that there were far more options that didn't revolve around throwing affs until they stick by brute force.

You have so many options as an alchemist.  Playing it affliction-style, there's never such a thing as brute-forcing affs to stick.  The way truewrack and the extended herb balance from mercury homunculus work together creates an attack that is just slightly slower than deadeyes (unless you're tempering aff-associated tempers, which isn't really a smart idea if you're at all afraid of dying since none of your hindering sticks well)

Ernam said:

I kindof like the concept of introducing new classes as dramatically OP, so that it kindof compensates people for the learning curve, and for the fact that nobody (initially) really has any reference for how to play the class.

That does kindof require things to be scaled back after some time though.

Ehhhh.  Alchemist isn't really over-powered.  It's definitely not broken.  I think letting tree tattoo cure tempers is a good start.  It feels like a class that balances on egg-shells with its affliction rate.  If you nerf it just a little too much, it starts to be too hard to use.

Jhui said:

meh, homunculus blocking isn't the problem.  There's just no way to cure back down from a stack.

Needs momentum curing (consecutive ginger eats curing 1 extra humor each time) and passive/actives being able to heal humor levels.

Blocking definitely is a problem, though.  Maybe not the problem.  I think reducing it down to 60% at max temper and giving it a start-up requirement that consumes homunculus balance is a good start.

I do agree that tree/passive curing should heal tempers.  There's really no reason it shouldn't.  I think that's the better place to start.  The consecutive eating thing, though, would lead to some really interesting true-locks without needing to eat tree.  I actually really like that idea, but it would need capped at 2 (or possibly 3, but probably 2).

Azelay

Wait what? All of those so many options are evaluating humours, then homunculus shriek,  tempering one humour, and truewracking until you get a lock or bleed out your opponent by overwhelming their curing. Phlegmatic strategy, or sanguine strategy. If the opponent is high enough might/tier they won't fall to stacking sanguine and hindering affs with a salt homunculus, and you use a phlegmatic/afflock strategy.

 That consists of spamming the same hindering/high risk afflictions to pressure herbs (preventing ginseng/antimony) until they have high enough tempering to slow their curing to the point they'll start being unable to cure lock affs just because you're giving them out so fast, and for no other reason. How is that not brute force overwhelming the curing rates to lock? There isn't anything tricksy involved, it's sheer speed and cure hindering/masking until the opponent can't keep up.

From what I can tell of offensive play, you have a few aliases you spam like hell to build up afflictions (like temper, truewrack sanguine stupidity/melancholic), then a few other aliases you spam like hell until you get balance before the enemy uses x cure, then you lock and spam the hell out of iron until they die. Woo spam. Is that what all classes are like?

Terra

No. It's moreso that alchemist -can- just spam til win, though. It has alternative options, such as more strategic truelocking with truewrack, using corrupt with bleed to help aurify, etc.

You don't -have- to do anything more than spam as alchemist, though, yeah. It's more one-dimensional than most classes in that regard.

Kuy

Azelay said:

Wait what? All of those so many options are evaluating humours, then homunculus shriek,  tempering one humour, and truewracking until you get a lock or bleed out your opponent by overwhelming their curing.
Use your truewracks wisely.  Understand that you are perfectly capable of stacking afflictions intelligently if you learn to track your target prios. Sticking asthma, impatience, and stacking focusables is awesome when innundating sanguine around 5 tempers.  Build focusables, innundate for bleeding, corrupt, giggle.

 Phlegmatic strategy, or sanguine strategy.
You forget Choleric strategy.  You can do >100% base damage (which will disregard armor calues) if you time your innundate correctly.

 If the opponent is high enough might/tier they won't fall to stacking sanguine and hindering affs with a salt homunculus,
Bleeding them is boring. Innundate them, then corrupt.

 and you use a phlegmatic/afflock strategy.
This is actually the weakest strategy the Alchemist has. Any passive curing beats it since we have no way of stripping rebounding to jab voyria.

 That consists of spamming the same hindering/high risk afflictions to pressure herbs (preventing ginseng/antimony) until they have high enough tempering to slow their curing to the point they'll start being unable to cure lock affs just because you're giving them out so fast, and for no other reason.
You only have to stick one locking aff to begin a truelock against non-fitness/serpents. You can truelock them perfectly fine at 5 phlegmatic tempers.

 How is that not brute force overwhelming the curing rates to lock?
Because "brute force" suggests your just wailing on stuff.  Don't do that.  Use your truewracks intelligently to build them to a place they can't manage.

 There isn't anything tricksy involved, it's sheer speed and cure hindering/masking until the opponent can't keep up.
There's lots of tricksy.  You just have to understand the ins-and-outs of mechanics.  This isn't an insult suggesting you don't, so don't take it that way.

From what I can tell of offensive play, you have a few aliases you spam like hell to build up afflictions (like temper, truewrack sanguine stupidity/melancholic),
Personally, I have one alias that can be modified for every possible combination of truewracks.

 then a few other aliases you spam like hell until you get balance before the enemy uses x cure,
Learn how to use serverside queueing.  When you don't have to worry about ping, Alchemist truly shines.

 then you lock and spam the hell out of iron until they die.
Again, you'll never kill someone with passive curing with this method unless they don't keep rebounding.

 Woo spam. Is that what all classes are like?
Yes. All classes spam.

Daslin

If you think Alchemist spam is bad, you should have seen my beginnings of Serpent, or me as a Runewarden. Wanna talk spam? I make that shit look like Treat.

Cynlael

Play MKO if you wanna see serious spam.

Cooper

Daeir said:

Don't you lose your angel for 5 minutes when you sacrifice? Isn't not having access to any angel abilities including the class' primary method of killing people considered a downside?

I dunno, sacrifice seems okay to me, should just be toned back to pheonix levels.

angel sacrifice;ct hey I lost a duel could someone deliver me?

angel sacrifice;say lol the 4 minutes it took you to prep me is now gone. also i'm still immune to your offense cause healing and rites LOL

angel sacrifice;literally anything because it fully cures you

Cooper

So you think an ability that fully cures you and gets you out of pretty much 90% of every classes kill combos/momentum with no real restrictions on usage is okay?

All the Priest has to do is walk out of the room, wait the time, then start the fight over.

Re: Tesha vs. Xinna

And the Priest still considers it a win. lulz.

Jhui

no one cares that it's a full cure ability.  That part is unique and cool.  soulcage/mog does same shit to a lesser extent.

Just needs a longer cooldown.

Can you imagine if someone soulcaged and blackwinded for 5 minutes to wait for a new soulcage to come up?  Same difference really.

Halos

I was going to say, "isn't Sacrifice just priest mog/soulcage?" Why are we raging about it. It's not even that serious. Just give it an hour cool down or something, jesus christ

Exelethril

Halos said:

I was going to say, "isn't Sacrifice just priest mog/soulcage?" Why are we raging about it. It's not even that serious. Just give it an hour cool down or something, jesus christ

I wish Mog/Soulcage gave a deathsight If exp is irrelevant, seems like their only use is to deny kill credit.

Chiam

Cooper said:

angel sacrifice;tell @Ruca deliver

 Fixed this for you

Ernam

Halos said:

I was going to say, "isn't Sacrifice just priest mog/soulcage?" Why are we raging about it. It's not even that serious. Just give it an hour cool down or something, jesus christ

I compared it to soulcage/mog except better in some ways, and worse in others (for instance, it can be prevented by several things including sleep, hunger, or truelock, and about 80% of the time people just don't use it because the don't think of it or react fast enough, unlike soulcage which works 100% of the time).  It's better because you keep defences.  It's also worse because unlike Soulcage, you lose a massive portion of your offense.

The fact that you can be delivered out has nothing to do with 1v1 combat balance.

Mishgul

Exelethril said:

Halos said:

I was going to say, "isn't Sacrifice just priest mog/soulcage?" Why are we raging about it. It's not even that serious. Just give it an hour cool down or something, jesus christ

I wish Mog/Soulcage gave a deathsight If exp is irrelevant, seems like their only use is to deny kill credit.

That is exactly why we use it.

Halos

Chiam said:

Cooper said:

angel sacrifice;tell @Ruca deliver

 Fixed this for you

mog; AF
cage; BW

also, just drop a flamed mono beforehand

Amarillys

What's mog?