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Comments
Lemme get a universe slot to there. Is it non decay? Need somewhere to put all these death tarots ...
How is that in any way related to what I said? Lmao.
And yeah @Santar, but what most of these guys are complaining about is the actual salve-lock thing which is in no way unavoidable or overpowered, I'm just trying to get them to see that so they can clarify why they feel minuet should be nerfed.
The only arguments I can see for why Minuet itself should have an EQ cost, Hierophant can also do just as well, which is why I'm confused Minuet is being singled out. What are the imbalancing problems of Minuet if you can think of any, off the top of your head?
It's not comparable to hierophant, like I said. If someone throws a hierophant at you, all you have to do is play defense anytime they undeaf you. They have to use balance for the hierophant, and balance for the undeaf. They cannot force you while off balance from undeafing you, either. There's a TON of counterplay you can do versus hierophant.
But yeah, most of the lower-tier fighters don't understand basic defense to guard against the quick Bard-lock. There's really no reason to complain against that type of lock because it's simply not a very good lock. The base-truelock can be enhanced by combining more things with it, where it becomes much harder to avoid.
However, that's merely the tip of the iceberg for ways that Bard can use minuet. I'm not going to sit here and start giving out free tips on how to abuse the ability, but I'm sure you probably already know a fair few of them. Most of them don't involve truelocking, either.
Just bring old tremolo back so nobody is complaining about bard quick-locking how badly svo deals with salves.
The problem with nerfing Minuet is that we're so relient on using force apply to actually lock. I've tried not using it (NOT ON PURPOSE MIND YOU) and every time I do I think "How the eff would I get my locks off without this." and ANY SLOWDOWN either by adding an EQ cost would make it absolutely impossible to maintain herb momentum (This has been my expierence so far, it's kind of why we don't use AuralBless) . If you're seriously getting locked in 6 seconds, you need to bloody tree, shield, shield on tree use, or run.
It would be nice though if we could maintain our ability to lock without Minuet and have Minuet readjusted. And yeah anyone who says we afflict fast doesn't seem to get that song balance is 2.5 seconds or so WITH a 235 rapier, and that Contradence/SongBird are so horridly random with song bird easily able to give an already afflicted aff. (SO many times I've jabed curare/sing impatience/recite epic
.)
So you're saying if Minuet got nerfed you'd be a serpent?
lol @strata. Yes
what
I said I don't think we can lock at all without forcing salve balance. THINK is the key word here.
Lol ^ this I don't think they understand just how insanely disheartening stun/ stupidity/ impatience on one balance is to a class without any balance less or passive curing. For me minuet is just sort of insult to injury. I wish they'd make fool balance less or give us any sort of prep outside if death tarot which is easily beat by -anyone-
Serpent so good at locking. Can lock just as fast as bard.
Not sure why a serpent with a Thoth's fang thinks otherwise. Sry Strata.
What. You can give aconite/limerick at the same time. No chance to focus in between. Not sure how that's a big deal though... apostate can do it faster. And stupidity shouldn't even really do anything unless you get really unlucky.
Of all the things to complain about, aconite/limerick seems like it should be low on the list.
I think stun is annoying in general. No idea why Pesante stuns. Seems entirely unnecessary.
stun+stupidity+impatience on a loop is pretty much all that's needed for reliable locking. Not sure why you'd have to rely on a questionably OP forcing ability to do salve balance trickery.
As far as surviving it goes there's many options which all involve turtle-mode or simply don't fight bards. No strategy in any class should be 100% unavoidable, and mechanics prove that to be true. It's the 99.9% unavoidable niche uses of skills, and the classhoppers that utilize them that tend to piss people off. Having said that, I think the majority of this discussion has been one side saying "lol u mad?" and the other side saying "omgwtfbbq my svo didn't make me not die to that bullllshit. *does nothing different* omgwtfbbq i died again!"
Bard afflicting speed is pretty fine. You beat herb balance. Look at your log with Aerek. Jab, he eats 2 herbs, jab, he eats 1, jab he eats 1. You are dominating herb balance.
The major problem, if I recall correctly, with bard locking, is that you cannot give slike and gecko at the same time. Is this right?
There are other ways to lock people that don't involve finishing with slike/gecko, but slike/gecko finish is the most popular and easiest way. Maybe bard should be given a song that gives one of those afflictions?
I did mention latency which I sometimes have issues with
Because I'm not a robot. I don't think only in terms of mechanics. The mechanics show "Serpent so good at locking. Can lock just as fast as bard." Indeed they do. Mechanics... are just mechanics. DOR TOUCH SHIELD is a mechanic too.
One that people can use against bard too, Strata.
Bard can't really loop stupidity/impatience, and that's not going to get you anywhere.
@Santar Bard can gecko/anorexia. The problem with bard locking is
1. No room hinder.
2. Voice balance is slow. 2.8 seconds for me with 239 speed rapier. Yes, jab can beat herb balance, but that means we stick an affliction at at most every 2.8 seconds. This means something like this:
0 - Curare/impatience, target eats bloodroot
1.7 - target eats goldenseal
1.8 - curare
2.8 - impatience
3.4 - target eats bloodroot, target touches tree
3.6 - curare
5.1 - target eats bloodroot
5.4 - curare
5.6 - impatience
6.8 - target eats bloodroot
7.1 - curare
8.5 - eat bloodroot, let's say rebounding comes up around here, cantata/jab curare
10.2 - eat bloodroot
10.3 - jab curare
11.3 - impatience
11.7 - eat bloodroot
12.1 - jab curare
13.4 - eat bloodroot, touch tree
Etc.
This is not considering songbird and contradanse. Songbird procs on about 1/3 of sings and usually gives a focusable affliction, sometimes no affliction (fear/noise). Not sure how often contradanse ticks but always focusable.
Also not considering shrugging, passive curing, etc.
Eh, bard could probably lock without minuet, combining some limb breaks, and all other things. But as Santar said earlier in the conversation, the ability for bard to do so many things at once is super hard, but perhaps would be one of the best. Without minuet it takes away bard having a low tier, and you either go bard if you're already amazing at combat, or if you want to bash. I'm not able to lock without minuet right now, but I would possibly be able to do so eventually were minuet nerfed. But back to the hierophant thing comparing to minuet, the only difference between the two abilities, is that minuet balance comes back by itself, whereas hierophant you have to continuously fling after you have a force.
As an occie to have hierophant ready isn't to bad either with keeping down deafness, just start off with attend. Either they re-def deafness and you're far ahead on herb balance and will likely be able to cadmus soon, or they don't re-def deafness and you have a free force available to you whenever. Minuet does have some weak points also, it's a harmonic, move rooms and either we have to re-play it, or summon it with us. You can see when we put it up, maybe a third person message when balance comes back would help out a bit. So you know they can force you at any time, and making the balance time not so RNG on minuet would help out.
The thing with most bards and beating herb balance though is that they're jabbing 1.6-1.7, and thats only with Canticle. Without its back up to around 2s-2.2s jabs, with voice balance being at 2.5ish. Of course you can try to spend 300cr and get a 240 speed rapier, but then you still won't jab below herb balance without canticle, which is a pain in the ass to move harms around when your opponent is running.
Anyways, just my opinion on things.
To re-cap I think minuet needs a bit of tweaking with the timer for balance back on it, and maybe a third person message for when balance does come back, and should be okay.
and meanwhile bard has hard time with classes like priests/apostates. Isn't this part of the rock paper scissors paradime people love so much?
why apostates?
Daddy @Jhui phoned in. Everyone go home.
That's a whole other discussion though. Priest/apostate curing is OP. Period.
umm I have a 235 and with Canticle, I only have a 1.9 jab yo
You doing something wrong, I jab 1.7s with canticle and 231 rap.
Cause they can throw your affs back on you too can't they? Or something LIKE bedevil, I maybe mis-remembering their mechanic since I was more OH GOD HIGHLEAP HIGHLEAP HIGHLEAP.
I'm pretty sure I've experimented with almost everything bard can do, truelock-wise (haven't really gone into riftlocks). Leg breaks work well, admittedly. My only problem with using that is it'd be really easy to counter with proper triggers.
Percussia seems useless to me. Insanely long eq for a delayed stun that you have to time with rebounding and deafness timer (if fighting monk or BM). Maybe if it was buffed slightly, that could be useful. Much shorter eq, but remove the ability to have more than one timed at a time? Wouldn't be anymore percussia stacks, but would be more useable in a fight.