Combat Logs

Santar

Terra said:

Umm. Bard has like none of Jester's escape abilities. I don't really consider somersault and backflip escape abilities.

Jester has balloons, hermit, universe, puppet travel. Would kill for just one of those.

Also, I think there's a misconception about bard's affliction rate. Bard does not afflict "fast." At all. It can lock fast with Minuet, yes. But it doesn't have a fast affliction rate. It's rather slow.

Heirophant is essentially like Minuet, other than the short Minuet cooldown that allows it to be used more than once, so balanceless forcing has existed for quite a while, even since soulmaster nerf.

Minuet is definitely a strong ability, but bard would not be "fine" if Minuet ordering had an eq cost. It would lack any sort of "wow" ability that every other class possesses and would be essentially worse than serpent in every way imaginable.

I agree with the bolded. 

That doesn't mean that minuet is a balanced ability, though. 

Jinsun

the only thing that bugs me about bard is some of the affliction combos. Bard fight goes like this for me , walk into full harms, instant stun/stupidity/impatience on one balance pathfinder before I get true locked in under six seconds. "Well fuck that."

Jovolo

If you get truelocked in under six seconds against a Bard something is seriously up with your curing.

Strata

Jovolo said:

If you get truelocked in under six seconds against a Bard something is seriously up with your curing you're not afk with server-side.

fixed.

Terra

Also, Minuet isn't 100% on demand in the way that you seem to be saying. You do have to strip deafness, like Heirophant, and it also has a cooldown.

I'm not saying that those make it difficult to use. Obviously bard constantly keeps deafness down, and the cooldown for Minuet can be very short sometimes. But you seem to be implying that it can be used right away without stripping anything and that it can be used multiple times in a row without waiting. If that isn't what you meant, disregard this!

Edit: I'd be all for modifications to Minuet if bard ended up with a decent alternative, though.

Jovolo

Strata said:

Jovolo said:

If you get truelocked in under six seconds against a Bard something is seriously up with your curing you're not afk with server-side paused.

fixed.

fixed.

Jinsun

Jovolo said:

If you get truelocked in under six seconds against a Bard something is seriously up with your curing.

No shrug or passive healing. Horrid.

Santar

Terra said:

Also, Minuet isn't 100% on demand in the way that you seem to be saying. You do have to strip deafness, like Heirophant, and it also has a cooldown.

I'm not saying that those make it difficult to use. Obviously bard constantly keeps deafness down, and the cooldown for Minuet can be very short sometimes. But you seem to be implying that it can be used right away without stripping anything and that it can be used multiple times in a row without waiting. If that isn't what you meant, disregard this!

Edit: I'd be all for modifications to Minuet if bard ended up with a decent alternative, though.

I'm aware of how Minuet works and what I said  is accurate. It having a 8-10 second cooldown or whatever it has is NBD. Neither is deafness, since Bard's offense already is prioritizing stripping deafness and has numerous ways to easily do so.

Talysin

Jovolo said:

If you get truelocked in under six seconds against a Bard something is seriously up with your curing.

Have you, uh, fought Xinna? It's her "thing".

Trey

Talysin said:

<Iggy Azalea bullshit>

Get out of here with that shit. At least be original

Jinsun

Talysin said:

Jovolo said:

If you get truelocked in under six seconds against a Bard something is seriously up with your curing.

Have you, uh, fought Xinna? It's her "thing".

Agreed. @Jovolo‌  v @Xinna‌  do want.

Talysin

Seriously, its all fair and balanced until you fight her, are true locked in 5 seconds, under a bed, crying, wanting your mommy and staring down the end of a sword about to behead you.

Jovolo

Log or lies

Jinsun

Jovolo said:

Log or lies

I was too busy Caining my laptop to log

Strata

Jovolo said:

Log or lies

farsee xinna

tell xinna Let's duel, you wretched disgusting insectoid. I will sever your bug limbs from the that repulsive exoskeleton.

*click log button*

*wait 5 seconds*

*post log to pastebin*

Santar

Last time I fought Xinna(Bard), it was over in 10 seconds or so. Was like a RL month ago - Haven't been too active.

I don't log things like that, though, because it's an hourly occurrence for me when I'm logged in.

Edit: I figure this was probably assumed - But, I won, obviously.

Talysin

Trey said:

Talysin said:

<Iggy Azalea bullshit>

Get out of here with that shit. At least be original

Atalkez

If your getting locked by a Bard, you're staying in room too long. Bard has no true movement hindrance other than affs. Easy enough to just move.

If they lunge, we'll now they have to bring Harms and reset. Bard is a tough class hut by no means OP. Minuet needs a look at but it also isn't "broken" either.

Santar

I'm not sure if this got fixed, but adding more messages to Minuet that the victim can see would be a huge step in the right direction. Like I said, not sure if this was fixed.

Jinsun

Atalkez said:

If your getting locked by a Bard, you're staying in room too long. Bard has no true movement hindrance other than affs. Easy enough to just move.

If they lunge, we'll now they have to bring Harms and reset. Bard is a tough class hut by no means OP. Minuet needs a look at but it also isn't "broken" either.

I guess I'll just try unraveling from space now  

Edit: Lady @Ourania‌  how's that occie moon base coming?

Santar

Daeir said:

Pretty sure you could code svo to take reconstructive/restoration from a pack instead of needing to have it out all the time. Could also watch for when the force traditionally comes and be off salve-balance when it would normally happen.

Bard would suck horribly with nerfed minuet. Stop crying and start thinking.

Ok Daeir, you go do that. Then you can come back here and post the log of the bard jabbing right arm and song-breaking left arm at the same time and then you just standing there and dying as you can't get your vial out of your pack. Not to mention that you can't take them out while paralysed, entangled, etc. The Bard can also just give you a resto vial.

Atalkez

Jinsun said:

Atalkez said:

If your getting locked by a Bard, you're staying in room too long. Bard has no true movement hindrance other than affs. Easy enough to just move.

If they lunge, we'll now they have to bring Harms and reset. Bard is a tough class hut by no means OP. Minuet needs a look at but it also isn't "broken" either.

I guess I'll just try unraveling from space now  

Edit: Lady @Ourania‌  how's that occie moon base coming?

Jinsun, don't fight in Harms as much as you can help it. They can't kill you from space either. Who cares if people whine about running? It's called survivng for a reason. Also, like Daeir said you can script your resto into your pack/hat or whatever if fighting Bard. Then they have to switch tactic after forcing resto and nothing happens.

There are plenty of ways to counter their setup, you just have to be on point!

Santar

Daeir said:

Yeah, fair enough. The latter strategy is still solid though. Not anywhere near as finnicky to figure out when they're going to throw the force apply on you.

The latter strategy is completely and utterly ludicrous. They don't have to force you right on every balance, and as soon as they figure out what you're attempting to do, they can easily work around it, either by breaking limbs while you're off salve balance, or just not even bothering with the minuet, because you already willingly tossed away your salve balance. They can just execute their combo off that. Or they can just do their combo when you're on salve balance - How do you expect to practically keep yourself off salve balance at all times?

Jinsun

I hate you guys for letting @Santar‌  be right .... Again. Keeping restoration in your pack is about the shittiest idea I can imagine.

Talysin

Atalkez said:

Jinsun said:

Atalkez said:

If your getting locked by a Bard, you're staying in room too long. Bard has no true movement hindrance other than affs. Easy enough to just move.

If they lunge, we'll now they have to bring Harms and reset. Bard is a tough class hut by no means OP. Minuet needs a look at but it also isn't "broken" either.

I guess I'll just try unraveling from space now  

Edit: Lady @Ourania‌  how's that occie moon base coming?

Jinsun, don't fight in Harms as much as you can help it. They can't kill you from space either. Who cares if people whine about running? It's called survivng for a reason. Also, like Daeir said you can script your resto into your pack/hat or whatever if fighting Bard. Then they have to switch tactic after forcing resto and nothing happens.

There are plenty of ways to counter their setup, you just have to be on point!

I think the definition of an overpowered technique is that shit like "put your restoration away" is the offered solution.

Jovolo

Resto in pack isn't a good method as GIVE is balanceless, or they can double resto break both arms at once and rift-lock you with no chance of escape. Prep classes should have no problem fighting against it because most of them either have fitness and/or passive or active curing, and they have no need to risk being caught with impatience/undeaf while on salve balance at any time. Momentum classes have it tougher, but most of them have a way of dealing with it. 

Serpent: Shrugging

Occultist: Soulmaster/Hierophant 

Alchemist: Educe Salt

Priest: Healing

Sentinel: Might

Apostate: Siphon, Daemonte, Bloodworms, Epilepsy, Shadowstrke

just off the top of my head. Can't login and double check but it's not 100% unstoppable across the board. The cooldown could take a look at, maybe some minor other things. Really not that bad.

Ourania

Jinsun said:

Atalkez said:

If your getting locked by a Bard, you're staying in room too long. Bard has no true movement hindrance other than affs. Easy enough to just move.

If they lunge, we'll now they have to bring Harms and reset. Bard is a tough class hut by no means OP. Minuet needs a look at but it also isn't "broken" either.

I guess I'll just try unraveling from space now  

Edit: Lady @Ourania‌  how's that occie moon base coming?

Moon base has been there for ages. You guys just are slacking on building a space ship

Talysin

Jovolo said:

Resto in pack isn't a good method as GIVE is balanceless, or they can double resto break both arms at once and rift-lock you with no chance of escape. Prep classes should have no problem fighting against it because most of them either have fitness and/or passive or active curing, and they have no need to risk being caught with impatience/undeaf while on salve balance at any time. Momentum classes have it tougher, but most of them have a way of dealing with it. 

Serpent: Shrugging

Occultist: Soulmaster/Hierophant 

Alchemist: Educe Salt

Priest: Healing

Sentinel: Might

Apostate: Siphon, Daemonte, Bloodworms, Epilepsy, Shadowstrke

just off the top of my head. Can't login and double check but it's not 100% unstoppable across the board. The cooldown could take a look at, maybe some minor other things. Really not that bad.

Beautiful! In the spirit of this, let's bring back command break trance, angel/demon fade and force snap. I mean, it's avoidable now esp with the trait.

Santar

Jovolo said:

Resto in pack isn't a good method as GIVE is balanceless, or they can double resto break both arms at once and rift-lock you with no chance of escape. Prep classes should have no problem fighting against it because most of them either have fitness and/or passive or active curing, and they have no need to risk being caught with impatience/undeaf while on salve balance at any time. Momentum classes have it tougher, but most of them have a way of dealing with it. 

Serpent: Shrugging

Occultist: Soulmaster/Hierophant 

Alchemist: Educe Salt

Priest: Healing

Sentinel: Might

Apostate: Siphon, Daemonte, Bloodworms, Epilepsy, Shadowstrke

just off the top of my head. Can't login and double check but it's not 100% unstoppable across the board. The cooldown could take a look at, maybe some minor other things. Really not that bad.

The Bard quick lock is in no way unstoppable, or even all that overpowered. Competent fighters should -not- die to just that lock. I just don't think that -minuet- is a balanced ability. I'd rather see Bards get some small buffs to their speed/afflicting ability while balancing minuet. There's so many ways to abuse it other than this lock you guys are talking about.

Jinsun

Jovolo said:

Resto in pack isn't a good method as GIVE is balanceless, or they can double resto break both arms at once and rift-lock you with no chance of escape. Prep classes should have no problem fighting against it because most of them either have fitness and/or passive or active curing, and they have no need to risk being caught with impatience/undeaf while on salve balance at any time. Momentum classes have it tougher, but most of them have a way of dealing with it. 

Serpent: Shrugging

Occultist: Soulmaster/Hierophant 

Alchemist: Educe Salt

Priest: Healing

Sentinel: Might

Apostate: Siphon, Daemonte, Bloodworms, Epilepsy, Shadowstrke

just off the top of my head. Can't login and double check but it's not 100% unstoppable across the board. The cooldown could take a look at, maybe some minor other things. Really not that bad.

Confused about what you're suggesting to do w/ soulmaster/Heiro defensively. Admittedly, I hate Heiro as it takes multiple balances just it get it ready. Are you talking about using it to speed up offense against bard?