Combat Logs

Shiro

So legit question, why is force defendable totem much more accepted compared to this.

Jhui

not sure on the admin stance because it's not written anywhere.

I'd say it comes down to whether it's obvious griefing or not.

If someone is just chillin' to hang out and you're wanting to kill them by forcing kill guards or forcing enter portal just for the hell of it, then that's pretty obvious griefing.

If someone is raiding you, mounting an attack to come after you, has a relic, or is about to call those same guards on you, it makes sense to use them as a counter-mechanic and doesn't fall under 'griefing' in my opinion.

Jhui

Shiro said:

So legit question, why is force defendable totem much more accepted compared to this.

force defendable totem?  Seems like they could just have a personal totem set up somewhere for an equal or even better effect, but would fall under same griefing rules I imagine.

It all depends on the situation.

New PK rules aren't cut and dry, it's open for interpretation for reasoning.

Cynlael

What about if you're hanging out in Mhaldor, then come across a Mhaldorian and force them to portal to Targ guards?

Hi @Bonko

Naah

I remember Tesha and Antidas did this a lot while raiding Mhaldor whenever a monk radiances. I asked an admin about it and they said that it's not approved. Same thing happened with Penwize, simply not allowed. Doesn't appear to be shrub worthy though.

Zeon

Since when can you grief Marks?

Tesha

Naah said:

I remember Tesha and Antidas did this a lot while raiding Mhaldor whenever a monk radiances. I asked an admin about it and they said that it's not approved. Same thing happened with Penwize, simply not allowed. Doesn't appear to be shrub worthy though.

You were exceptionally rude to me, so mind command kick guard was what I did (to clarify, I know this isn't okay now and haven't done it since). Never made anyone enter a portal to guards. I probably would have (past tense!) if I had motive/ability to, but that isn't something I can force in the spur of the moment.

Naah

And you were still being a you know what to me.

Cahin

You don't understand, Naah. You hurt Tesha's text feelings.

Naah

Don't worry. She wants to be the best. Probably at everything. She can be the best at getting over things. If were lucky, another flood may hit Targ. Or maybe Eleusis will go to war with them.

Cooper

Any force to attack guards is illegal and a punishable offence. I had an admin message on it somewhere but I think it decayed. It's considered an 'unescapable death'.

Liscos

where are these rules written down? 

Naah

help griefing.

Also admin enforced if you issued. Considered inescapable death. As Cooper mentioned. If someone issues you for you forcing them to attack a guard stack, you'll lose the fight.

Jhui

it's escapable.....by sitting down to stop the force, dropping a mono to stop the portal, or just surviving the guards like a boss.

That's like saying radiance is inescapable if you stand still and do nothing.

I think it's very situational.  Forcing kill guard on a monk radiancing from a guard stack is perfectly acceptable counterplay imo.

If you issued yourself or got issued for it, you may have gotten a previous non-com admin or you were legitimately griefing.  I am sure other admin may have different rulings depending on the situation.

Then again, my opinion doesn't mean shit if some admin decides to poke their head in for a global ruling.  Write it down somewhere if you do.

Zeon

I don't know why someone would want formal rules protecting them from this sort of thing. I find the fact that someone can do these sort of things to you a novel/interesting game mechanic. If you're just bashing by yourself on some lone island, then you don't have to worry about these sort of things. But if you're involved in any sort of multi-player interaction, any goal you set for yourself (even trivial goals), can be made immensely difficult if players choose to make it so. This sort of difficulty is the driving force behind player vs player (not just in the pk sense) conflict, and it's the primary reason why I find Achaea fun (even after all this time).

Tesha

Cahin said:

You don't understand, Naah. You hurt Tesha's text feelings.

@Bonko, you know what to do. 

Lilian

https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/ae797306 It's okay @Seftin, I wasn't using my face. I really wasn't

Strata

Guards are a "I don't want/I can't fight you." mechanic employed by the lowest rungs of Achaean society. Therefore it's only natural that they would have serious rage problems when the same lame tactics are used on them - prompting them to quickly issue.

Aelios

Strata said:

Guards are a "I don't want/I can't fight you." mechanic employed by the lowest rungs of Achaean society. Therefore it's only natural that they would have serious rage problems when the same lame tactics are used on them - prompting them to quickly issue.

Or a "I don't care about learning Achaean combat and am here for RP but you're an ass and deserve death" mechanic.

"Tomayto, Tomahto."

Mizik

Still, why should guard summon/portal be allowed? 

Mishgul

I mean all things considered, we have to start right from the very beginning to really get right down to the root of the actual problem that these things actually represent bitch.

Atalkez

https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/40194713

posted with the permission of the below

fu @Vaehl

Strata

Mizik said:

Still, why should guard summon/portal be allowed? 

The generally accepted norm is that using guards in the following ways is perfectly fine:

• Summoning (forcing mind travel, puppet/vodun summon, alchemist displace, rites, lust, etc.) enemy raiders to your location which happens to be a guard stack.
• Forcing enemy raiders to walk/leap/tumble/etc onto guards in an adjacent room.
• Beckoning/yanking/boomerang enemies onto guards.

Forcing people outside of a city back into the city through various means is usually only considered acceptable if the one being forced is part of a raid or is Ashtani. If the Ashtani or the raider is the one doing the forcing, then it's called "griefing". I didn't really want to have a factional bias when explaining this, but that's simply the way it is, as I see it.

Because all of those methods are contextually acceptable, I therefore see no reason why forcing someone to kick their own city's guards should be against any rules. Just like more straightforward PK engagements, one would want to consider context and RP reasoning for doing or not doing such a thing.

tl;dr - Don't use guards as your primary fighting tactic and then issue people for "griefing" when they do the same to you. It just makes you look like a douche.

Eloru

I thought this one was funny (sorry Alaskar): https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/e1ab4249

Cahin

It was all lolz when it was Jarrel phasing into cities, eyeing, snapping people to kick guards, and earringing out. I believe the consensus then was that wasn't griefing. What changed? Factions?

Alaskar

Lol @Eloru‌ it was fun. My shield tattoo faded in our first skirmish.  And you're literally the fourth person I've fought with svo and I couldn't remember how to change priorities.  Ugh. I'll get you next time  next time I'm going to drop retard when you're fighting a room full of mobs

Talysin

I really like @Eloru and @Alaskar

Mizik

Strata said:

Mizik said:

Still, why should guard summon/portal be allowed? 

The generally accepted norm is that using guards in the following ways is perfectly fine:

• Summoning (forcing mind travel, puppet/vodun summon, alchemist displace, rites, lust, etc.) enemy raiders to your location which happens to be a guard stack.
• Forcing enemy raiders to walk/leap/tumble/etc onto guards in an adjacent room.
• Beckoning/yanking/boomerang enemies onto guards.

Forcing people outside of a city back into the city through various means is usually only considered acceptable if the one being forced is part of a raid or is Ashtani. If the Ashtani or the raider is the one doing the forcing, then it's called "griefing". I didn't really want to have a factional bias when explaining this, but that's simply the way it is, as I see it.

Because all of those methods are contextually acceptable, I therefore see no reason why forcing someone to kick their own city's guards should be against any rules. Just like more straightforward PK engagements, one would want to consider context and RP reasoning for doing or not doing such a thing.

tl;dr - Don't use guards as your primary fighting tactic and then issue people for "griefing" when they do the same to you. It just makes you look like a douche.

Outside of a raid, any sort of forced movement at all into guards isn't justifiable.

Alaskar

I find forced movement into guards to be unreasonably hilarious.  Especially when it involves a portal or like mid combat. It's not like it's completely unavoidable either...

Cahin

Everything is avoidable. Profit's theft box was avoidable easily avoidable with proper triggers. I think it's more of an issue of whether or not it's reasonable to expect people to go through those precautions.

Wait, Mhaldor has the mindring currently?  I think it's hilarious as well!