Combat Logs

Mithridates

Davio, Iskla, and Edris are the only people I can see that are fighters.

Dunn

Blink. This is me fucking blinking at you.

Are you serious?

Mithridates

Most of those people just defend. Then again, I haven't been around much so I don't know about any more recent developments. 

Jacen

So, engaging in PvP for defense purposes does not qualify one as a... fighter?

Triak

Pretty sure you can ignore Mith's post.  @Antonius is Targs best fighter but apparently doesn't make the cut!

Mithridates

Oh I didn't see Antonius. 

Kuy

Anyone who defends on the reg should be in the army.  That's kind of a given, since it's the whole basis of the system.

If there are people that you don't want in the army because they're "Radiance bait in a raid," don't invite them to the defense party.

Kross

Not enlisting in the army for raid defense doesn't even really bother me. Yeah, it's annoying trying to only target 4/12 people that they have defending to push the tank where we want it.

What annoys me, though, is people not considered "combatants" or "fighters". Aldair, Szareine, Carmell, Reonna, Morthif...pretty sure I've seen each of them outside of defending Targ. Whether it's cloud skirmishes or shrine defense. Sure, I get the whole "sworn to the Bloodsworn so we HAVE to fight for shrines". Got it. But....doesn't that make you a combatant? Not to mention, if you (Avianca) sit at clouds with Aelios for totem gank, you can't say you're not a combatant. Just because you don't know what you're doing, doesn't mean you can participate and be free of responsibility and run from city defense when it suits you. Or anyone for that matter. Just used Avianca as an example cause she tends to provide the best one. I digress.

Final point to this statement - If you want to be locked down to city defense only...then only participate in city defense. If you're sitting at clouds with 8+ of your "city defense" buddies. You're not defending your city anymore, you're skirmishing. I encourage you to do this, just don't whine when people are upset that when you ARE in your city defending, you don't count for more than lulz on a radiance kill. Get yo' shit together and enlist and provide some substance to the fight. Otherwise, stay in your city and whine.

Jovolo

It's the opinion of one man. They are all combatants.

Maybe not very good ones, but that changes nothing.

Dunn

Nothing to do but blink. Maybe chuckle.

Kross

Should implement a rule that if at any time you gain infamy, it auto enlists you into your city military at AR 1. Obviously you're doing -something- worth of combat prowess outside the city. Otherwise, you wouldn't get infamy.

Strata

Kross said:

Not enlisting in the army for raid defense doesn't even really bother me. Yeah, it's annoying trying to only target 4/12 people that they have defending to push the tank where we want it.

What annoys me, though, is people not considered "combatants" or "fighters". Aldair, Szareine, Carmell, Reonna, Morthif...pretty sure I've seen each of them outside of defending Targ. Whether it's cloud skirmishes or shrine defense. Sure, I get the whole "sworn to the Bloodsworn so we HAVE to fight for shrines". Got it. But....doesn't that make you a combatant? Not to mention, if you (Avianca) sit at clouds with Aelios for totem gank, you can't say you're not a combatant. Just because you don't know what you're doing, doesn't mean you can participate and be free of responsibility and run from city defense when it suits you. Or anyone for that matter. Just used Avianca as an example cause she tends to provide the best one. I digress.

Final point to this statement - If you want to be locked down to city defense only...then only participate in city defense. If you're sitting at clouds with 8+ of your "city defense" buddies. You're not defending your city anymore, you're skirmishing. I encourage you to do this, just don't whine when people are upset that when you ARE in your city defending, you don't count for more than lulz on a radiance kill. Get yo' shit together and enlist and provide some substance to the fight. Otherwise, stay in your city and whine.

It's a combat book, I swear!

Abuse flags go below this line, thanks: _____________________________________________________________________________________

Cynlael

@Strata, author =? Mephaos, or Avianca?

Dunn

Cathy

Dunn said:

Officially my favourite facepalm gif ever.

Davio

What's the problem?

Four of the thirteen involved in that log of me leading people in to defend something WITHIN THE CITY OF TARGOSSAS, were not in the army.

If people want to defend stuff in the city, that's fine. At no point will we force people into the army, sorry.

Kross

@Davio - that wasn't my point. (I can't speak for anyone else). The point I was trying to make is individuals that claim they only participate in city defense, clearly do not ONLY participate in city defense, and still yet are not conscripted into their respective armies.

I'm just solely saying that if you're going to defend your city and nothing else, go for it. Hell, don't join the army, I don't care. I'm going to probably try to catch you with a radiance to get the sanction in the first place. But, if you're going to participate in cloud skirmishes and mark ganks after a raid, clearly outside of your "city defense" measures, then don't say that all you're doing is defending your city (and still not be a part of the army). Just annoying to see that when we raid, Targossas has 4 or so legitimately artied combatants that know what they're doing. The rest, although they might not know what they're doing, tend to find their Impale/kneestrike/lunge/engage/axk macros pretty easily without worry. Essentially, your low tiered combatants in city defense just do this repeatedly (again, nothing wrong with this, they generally don't know what's going on). But at the same time, once they break past mashing a macro in raid defense and move on to cloud ganks and skirmishing...I think pulling the "I don't know what i'm doing so I'm not joining the army" card is a bit silly.

Kyrra

I don't understand why people who are defending aren't in the army, though that might be due to the changes in experience loss for defending.

It's not like they are forced to raid unless it's Mhaldor. It just seems to me like people are not wanting to actually participate in the new war system which is pretty unfair since a lot of work went into reworking it and only half the cities use it, and even then, it's a half arse attempt on those that do. People that defend should be automatically enlisted since they are actively participating. 

Davio

Eh, we hold them to the standard that if they want to join the army, they must be willing to a) deal with you lot ganking them for having it in their honours b) be called on, at any time, to sanction (not that we do, because the retaliation to our midbies is overwhelming)  c) need to be able to adequately stay alive.

the problem, you see, is that we don't put pressure on people who are okay with fighting, outside of Ashtan, Mhaldor, Hashan, to get to that point. We only force people who want to go offensive, within other cities, to join the army.

It's a personal matter, othewise, and while we can be better at it, I will never understand the gripe with people defending the city and not being in the army. That will not change.

And to those saying that they need to join the army to defend the city: No.

edit: not to be a dick, but the reason none of you get why they are not in the army is not relevant. It's not because we, or they, are gaming the system. It's on them. They make that choice.

People in Targossas have to defend, they don't have to be in the army. Sorry that's inconvenient for you, but that's how we do it.

Kyrra

So they are happy losing more experience over everyone else once a sanctioned raid is in motion? Because if they don't care about dying then the other points make little sense.

I really just don't get why people only want to be half involved. Yeah it's their choice but I don't see the sense in it. I guess I just prefer clear contribution.

Strata

Davio said:

Eh, we hold them to the standard that if they want to join the army, they must be willing to a) deal with you lot ganking them for having it in their honours b) be called on, at any time, to sanction (not that we do, because the retaliation to our midbies is overwhelming)  c) need to be able to adequately stay alive.

the problem, you see, is that we don't put pressure on people who are okay with fighting, outside of Ashtan, Mhaldor, Hashan, to get to that point. We only force people who want to go offensive, within other cities, to join the army.

It's a personal matter, othewise, and while we can be better at it, I will never understand the gripe with people defending the city and not being in the army. That will not change.

And to those saying that they need to join the army to defend the city: No.

As far as I knew, being a member of a city's military does not make you open to PK whenever your enemies feel like killing you. In fact, even if Targossas somehow found the cajones to go mutually hostile, even then I don't think under the new system, it is acceptable to go around ganking your enemies because "lol he/she is a soldier." Each city has their indivuduals who feel it is necessary to travel around after raids and kill as many enemy participants as they can - which I totally disagree with unless there is a damn good (and legit) reason for it. Army is not Quisalis Mark. If you are instilling a mindset into your lowbies that "Once you join the army, Ashtan is going to gank you back to level 5.", please stop. That's not only untrue, but it's also not very healthy. (insert expected "you're not targossian so you can't speak about it" BS here)

I agree that city defense should not outright require you to be enlisted. The argument here is those who may or may not be enlisted showing up for cloud skirmishes and ganks - who later claim that they only defend the city by way of hiring, ignoring, and issuing. Those measures should not be taken so lightly as they seemingly are - it's almost to the point where some people think it's one of their class skills.

Abuse flags below this line please: ______________________________________________________________

Davio

Some people, for example, might be busy with other things. The option to join the army is overwhelming on top of them trying to do other things. They make the choice to not opt in to raid at our say. To not be jumped for being in the army.

It's a simple explanation, truly.

Some of them should be in the army, but are not forced to. Because they don't want to sanction.

Kuy

Davio said:

We only force people who want to go offensive, within other cities, to join the army.

This is the only thing I find disagreeable in your post.  Going on the offensive outside of your home city means you should check the box that says, "I'm a willing, if not able, combatant that wants to be involved and should be conscripted."

Not forcing people to be conscripted is fine, but that means when those people come to clouds or shrine defilements, they're doing it of their own free will, not because you're making them.  That, in itself, means they're showing the desire to take part in PK conflict, and should probably be offered to be conscripted, not disregarded as "useless radiance bait."

Davio

Raiding, and city vs city fighting, within the walls of another city, is considered it's own thing. I have admin backing here, because me killing someone after a raid for the raid gave that person the right to hire on me. The admin backed them, even if this person opted into raiding, defiling, and ganking 5 out of 7 days in a week.

The army is for sanctions. 

and Strata, dear, I'm sorry that you don't know what our people deal with. We're not innocent, but we do get griefed. We saw this in the war, and in the shrine nonsense.

I wish I could forget about the human/travel ganks. But I can't, and I would be stupid to not warn people.

We don't deny people that often. Truly. I denied Marze, made him join the DG and experience a real fight, he defended once, and went "Let me in".

We have a system, it's not perfect, and it's not what you would do, but that doesn't make it wrong.

Jarrod

Regardless of the conversation, we probably shouldn't take the terminology of a historically toxic player who regularly verbally abuses his own side as the opinion of all of Targossas, and shouldn't be quoting it as such.

Just saying, I might not agree with their reasoning but Davio wasn't the one who called the non-soldiers that.

Santar

Did Kross just complain about city soldiers then list a group of names where literally every one of the names except one IS a city soldier?

Lol, what?

Jacen

Soldiers from mutually hostile cities are open PK to each other.

As I see it, there's really only two reasons that Targ players wouldn't enlist.

1) Gaming the system, using non-soldiers so that enemy tanks don't charge as much

2) Scared that Aurora/Duec is gonna tell Silas to set org relations to Hostile to Ashtan

Outside of those two situations, being a soldier is only a benefit to the player.

However, having said that, I do think that there needs to be, somehow, two levels to being a soldier.

Level 1: Can defend your city, deaths will contribute to enemy tanks charging, will NOT be open PK to a mutually hostile city.

Level 2: Same as above, but you're a raider/defiler, so you would be open PK to a mutually hostile city. 

Not sure what the best way to mechanically support the above would be; I'm sure the 4 cities in active conflict are much better suited to sort that out than I. But it is a barrier to entry for the younger crowd, and allowing people to defend their home without risk of being open PK while they're out bashing would go a long ways to balance the system, I think. I mean, we all agree that you shouldn't gank people for defending their home; let's put some mechanics in effect to support this.

Tesha

As fascinating as your opinions on Targossas' military are, this is the thread for combat logs.

Kross

Kross said:

What annoys me, though, is people not considered "combatants" or "fighters". Aldair, Szareine, Carmell, Reonna, Morthif...pretty sure I've seen each of them outside of defending Targ.

@Santar - No mention on city soldiers here. I'm tired of everyone telling me these individuals (as examples) are "non-coms". I've already stated my piece on city soldier stuff. Conscript them, don't, that's your business and I really don't care. If i'm raiding, i'll kill whoever is in your city and actively defending. But, when these individuals show up to the clouds for a skirmish, and then tell me how they're non-combatants just trying to defend shrines...? If you're a non-combatant, don't defend the shrine. Funny how Targossas won't require you to conscript in the army to defend the city, but will sure as hell make sure you know you're required to defend the shrines outside of it.

Carmell

Don't bring me in on this Kross.  I haven't bitched at anyone.  I keep my mouth shut and go on with my life. I'm also a city soldier.  I know that i'm going to get ganked if I leave the city.  Hell Jinsun jumps me regularly when i'm out and about.