Combat Logs

Jhui

Santar said:

Instill is pretty irrelevant because noone uses it.

The class was originally balanced around instill but noone uses instill.

I used instill for the first few months of the class.  It's pretty fast and very effective if eq/int+diadem spec'd.

Nothing quite beats perma-paral while stacking affs though.  It allows occie to be offensive while being defensive, but then again this is a problem for a lot of classes (dragon, sentinel, BM mostly).  That is the part the needs changing imo.

Occie is decently balanced outside of t-fang curare jabbing (unafflicted hound damage might be a little too high, as well).

Melodie

I'm genuinely curious - how much of a deal would it be to make artefact daggers restricted to either serpent-only, or a very few classes?

Obviously I know it would be a big change, but I'm wondering if some classes would suddenly become inadequate without them. If not, why not go ahead and restrict them? If so, what would need to be changed to make it so it wasn't a problem?

I know many people use daggers for things, but I always found it very strange with certain classes, Occultist being one of them.

Santar

Yeah, like I said, they made the class with instill in mind but then everyone T-fang and torc'd up. Those  two things make it pretty OP.

Overall it seems like Occultists have too many options right now and they're pretty much A tier at all of them.

Santar

Melodie said:

I'm genuinely curious - how much of a deal would it be to make artefact daggers restricted to either serpent-only, or a very few classes?

Obviously I know it would be a big change, but I'm wondering if some classes would suddenly become inadequate without them. If not, why not go ahead and restrict them? If so, what would need to be changed to make it so it wasn't a problem?

I know many people use daggers for things, but I always found it very strange with certain classes, Occultist being one of them.

The problem isn't the daggers, it's that Occultist suffers NO disadvantage from using them.

Occultist class is built around using ent balance which requires nothing but  it's own balance, and combining that with another skill, intended to generally be instill, which is a no damage 1 affliction skill every 2.5ish seconds.

The reason the T-fang and torc are so powerful for occultist is because they can actually -replace- the main Occultist mechanic with something that is like twice as good. Other classes can use a t-fang to get different -options- but not to directly enhance their overall base offense.

Jhui

I fought for that during classleads and only the damage was downgraded.  It's the main reason i held off on buying a t-fang as monk.

I think it opens up a lot of fun tactics for some classes and isn't overpowered, but for some classes it's overboard.  Maybe those classes (occie, priest, dragon, bard) will be handled on a case by case basis.

Santar

I think the best fix is to do something like make it ents actually use up real balance, but can be used while off balance/eq.

So for example, you could do instill/ent still, and have balance back from the ent before your next instill to use it again. However, if you tried to do t-fang at 1 second jab and ent, you'd still be off balance for like a second, so you couldn't jab again until you regained being off bal from the ent.

Just standardize the balances so occultists doesn't get ridic benefits. Think of it like this. Rend + gust line up fine as dform, but jab/gust don't. Your jab is slowed down waiting for the gust.  Same thing with other stuff. Just make Occultist ent balance have a balancing factor like that with super quick skills and it's fine.

And yes, Priest is another class that gets ridiculous benefits from thoth's fang, and whip of taming as well, since Priests main attack is pretty poor and relies on the supplemental abilities. Replace that main attack with something better and it's OP.

Melodie

It seems like it could use some testing with a few classes in some cases to make sure it's not too overpowered. Maybe something up for review in the next set of classleads, hopefully.

I kind of want to see if Tecton will let me borrow one for a few hours just to see how bad it is. I know when I had Ugrach's scorpion for a few days, I became this godly monstrosity that should not see the light of day, and I'm by far not the best combatant.

Jhui

would rather just disallow t-fang or paral like they do with torc paralyse.

having ents balanceless makes for a lot of fun tactics, none seemingly overpowered.

More classes should be as fun as occie.  Shouldn't nerf cool things like that because dirk is OP.

Dunn

I'm all for the DOTA 2 take on balance. Make all of it OP.

5 second aoe stun/silence? Yes.

Rexia

Is there are a reason it can't just work like alchemists and wrack? It takes balance and can only be used after specific skills that take equilibrium?

I mean, that's already a mechanic for one class. Seems like a sensible way to fix it.

Santar

Well, I was trying to steer away from bandaid fixes, but a bandaid fix like that could do alright.

You could just make it to where, "Can not use an ent if you have used a high speed weapon jab(not sure if thoth's is the only imba" and "can not use ent if you have used a torc ability".

And have a short cooldown before you can use the ent again. That'd probably make it a lot more reasonable. Would get Occultists back to using their skills(which allows for the best balance) instead of replacing their skills with artefact abilities. 

Jarrod

Dunn said:

I'm all for the DOTA 2 take on balance. Make all of it OP.

5 second aoe stun/silence? Yes.

Only if my two minute world-nuke can be reset with an item

Dunn

Oh you mean Zeus' ultimate that does 900 damage? Yeah buy a Refresher Orb, dawg.

Occultists aren't the only problem with Tfang. Any class with a separate balance (minus bard because of tunesmithing) can benefit greatly from purchasing a Tfang. It's less a problem with Occie and more a problem with the amazing/ridiculousness that is Thoth's Fang. Or Babel's Fang if you love Tanris. (no one does)

Makarios

We don't really want to copy other mechanics if we can help it. Diversity is good. Its a tricky situation since we have a lot of classes that have combo abilities now (alchemist, priest, occultist, bard, druid). I'm inclined to say downgrading thoths isn't really going to solve these issues, because thoths actual jab speed isn't that much beyond the achieveable for decent forged weaponry. Legitimate concerns though.

Jarrod

Dunn said:

Oh you mean Zeus' ultimate that does 900 damage? Yeah buy a Refresher Orb, dawg.

Occultists aren't the only problem with Tfang. Any class with a separate balance (minus bard because of tunesmithing) can benefit greatly from purchasing a Tfang. It's less a problem with Occie and more a problem with the amazing/ridiculousness that is Thoth's Fang. Or Babel's Fang if you love Tanris. (no one does)

I know, I was quoting something that exists

Nothing silly like a massive AoE sleep that lasts for eternity until someone gets hit.

Nothing like thAt exists in the GAme So It's not REally brokeN.

Mithridates

Clearly the only solution to this problem is to make retardation not decay vibes. 

CLEARLY

Mithridates

Jinsun said:

. There's that and without a strongfavour and belt, I'd have under 4k health at level 99. It takes like nothing to kill an occie. There are no costs to -kill- anyone artefact wise. Being a competitor, well I still can't tank most people.

Gonna have to call BS on this one. As a Grook, no arties or TF's, I'll have 4260 HP at level 99.

Rexia

Mithridates said:

Jinsun said:

. There's that and without a strongfavour and belt, I'd have under 4k health at level 99. It takes like nothing to kill an occie. There are no costs to -kill- anyone artefact wise. Being a competitor, well I still can't tank most people.

Gonna have to call BS on this one. As a Grook, no arties or TF's, I'll have 4260 HP at level 99.

His web of lies unravels!

Mithridates

I mean it's possible, if he picked the 10 con Tsol'aa... Maybe. 

Tesha

Because it was mentioned - I don't think priest + non-mace is as bad as occultist + thoth's fang etc. Priest benefits in an entirely different way. Occultist benefits much more from it. For priest, it's just something to help get passive afflictions stuck and slowly build. For occultists, it's stacking powerful herb afflictions rapidly. Priest is mana-based, occultist is affliction-based. For priest, the benefit of being more affliction heavy is a primarily stylistic benefit - the peace/paralysis is cured rather quickly except in extreme cases where all disruptions are stuck (doesn't happen often at all). For occultist, it's a much more dangerous strategy that combines heightened hindering with a stronger offense.

Jinsun

Rexia said:

Mithridates said:

Jinsun said:

. There's that and without a strongfavour and belt, I'd have under 4k health at level 99. It takes like nothing to kill an occie. There are no costs to -kill- anyone artefact wise. Being a competitor, well I still can't tank most people.

Gonna have to call BS on this one. As a Grook, no arties or TF's, I'll have 4260 HP at level 99.

His web of lies unravels!

Actually just checked, he's right I have 4260 without belt. So, dead on. yes that extra 200 makes me comparable with any class that has 6-7k in lesser, heh. 

Mithridates

Bro.

BRO.

preaching to the choir. 

Jinsun

also, this is why I'm totally holding off on buying a t-fang. I hope they don't cut daggers, though. I really do like being somewhat versatile. I can fight with instill, but it's really annoying to stack two afflictions then get DSL'd with sensitivity and Paralysis and lose 1/3 of my health in one balance.

Mithridates

One baxe dsl from anyone with strength arties does 48% hp.

Looking at you, @Aegoth.

Rexia

Mithridates said:

One baxe dsl from anyone with strength arties does 48% hp.

Looking at you, @Aegoth.

48% heath in one hit with two afflictions? Psh, as an Alchemist I can make you bleed...a bit...if you don't run away.

Aegoth

huh? I don't... why are you looking at me?

Alrena

Mithridates said:

One baxe dsl from anyone with strength arties does 48% hp.

Looking at you, @Aegoth.

I'm pretty sure @Mithridates is thinking about THE damage knight of Cyrene: @Kardal

Carmell

@Jinsun at level 101 i'm only at 4623 con spec'd so you are on par with others.  Those with higher health are more then likely artifact.  You can't really compare none arte with arte.

Mithridates

Yeah total mis. Also, @Carmell, hp at 12 con raises by 40 hp per level, so 600 plus is a pretty good haul!

Vicious

| 4940hp | 3483mp(97%) | 23580e| 13808wex- 64.9%,cexkdb- Nizaris 13/13|13/2|0/0|14- Frenzy 7

Visions of the Inferno wash over you, driving your heart into a frenzy.

| 4940hp | 2983mp-500(83%) | 23580e| 13764wex- 64.9%,cexkdb- Nizaris 13/13|13/2|0/0|14- (sip

mentality)

You take a drink from a black-walnut vial.

Your mind feels stronger and more alert.

| 4940hp | 3492mp+509(97%) | 23580e| 13764wex- 64.9%,cexkdb- Nizaris 13/13|13/2|0/0|14- dll

stand

dsl  Nizaris left leg

You are not fallen or kneeling.

| 4940hp | 3492mp(97%) | 23580e| 13764wex- 64.9%,cexkdb- Nizaris 13/13|13/2|0/0|14- dll

stand

dsl  Nizaris left leg

Lightning-quick, you jab Nizaris's left leg with an ornate steel rapier.

 -------------------------------------------

|     NIZARIS STRUCK! | NIZARIS STRUCK!     |

 -------------------------------------------

Lightning-quick, you jab Nizaris's left leg with an ornate steel rapier.

 -------------------------------------------

|     NIZARIS STRUCK! | NIZARIS STRUCK!     |

 -------------------------------------------

Nizaris's eyes close suddenly as he falls asleep.

Nizaris's leftleg broke.

| 4940hp | 3492mp(97%) | 23560e| 13764we- 64.9%,cekdb- Nizaris 13/13|13/2|0/0|14-

Nizaris opens his eyes and yawns mightily.

| 4940hp | 3492mp(97%) | 23560e| 13764we- 64.9%,cekdb- Nizaris 13/13|0/2|0/0|14- dll

stand

dsl  Nizaris left leg

Nizaris takes some balm from a vial and rubs it on his legs.

NIZARIS HAS APPLIED TO his legs

NIZARIS HAS APPLIED TO his legs

NIZARIS HAS APPLIED TO his legs

NIZARIS HAS APPLIED TO his legs

| 4940hp | 3492mp(97%) | 23560e| 13764we- 64.9%,cekdb- Nizaris 13/13|0/2|0/0|14-

Nizaris takes a drink from an oaken vial.

| 4940hp | 3492mp(97%) | 23560e| 13764we- 64.9%,cekdb- Nizaris 13/13|0/2|0/0|14-

Nizaris clenches his fists and grits his teeth.

| 4940hp | 3492mp(97%) | 23560e| 13764we- 64.9%,cekdb- Nizaris 13/13|0/2|0/0|14- dra

stand

dsl  Nizaris right arm

dra

stand

dsl  Nizaris right arm

dra

stand

dsl  Nizaris right arm

dra

stand

dsl  Nizaris right arm

dra

stand

dsl  Nizaris right arm

You have recovered balance on all limbs. (1.383s)

| 4940hp | 3492mp(97%) | 23580e| 13764wex- 64.9%,cexkdb- Nizaris 13/13|0/2|0/0|14- dra

stand

dsl  Nizaris right arm

You are not fallen or kneeling.

| 4940hp | 3492mp(97%) | 23580e| 13764wex- 64.9%,cexkdb- Nizaris 13/13|0/2|0/0|14-

You viciously jab an ornate steel rapier into Nizaris's right arm.

 -------------------------------------------

|     NIZARIS STRUCK! | NIZARIS STRUCK!     |

 -------------------------------------------

You viciously jab an ornate steel rapier into Nizaris's right arm.

Nizaris's rightarm broke.

 -------------------------------------------

|     NIZARIS STRUCK! | NIZARIS STRUCK!     |

 -------------------------------------------

| 4940hp | 3492mp(97%) | 23560e| 13764we- 64.9%,cekdb- Nizaris 13/13|0/2|0/0|14- dra

stand

dsl  Nizaris right arm

vivi

stand

dismount

Vivisect  Nizaris

You have recovered balance on all limbs. (1.191s)

| 4940hp | 3567mp+75(99%) | 23560e| 13776wex- 64.9%,cexkdb- Nizaris 13/0|0/2|0/0|14- vivi

stand

dismount

Vivisect  Nizaris

You are not fallen or kneeling.

| 4940hp | 3567mp(99%) | 23560e| 13776wex- 64.9%,cexkdb- Nizaris 13/0|0/2|0/0|14-

You are not currently riding anything.

| 4940hp | 3567mp(99%) | 23560e| 13776wex- 64.9%,cexkdb- Nizaris 13/0|0/2|0/0|14-

You reach out for Nizaris's chest but are unable to penetrate it.

| 4940hp | 2767mp-800(77%) | 23560e| 13576wx- 64.9%,cxkdb- Nizaris 13/0|0/2|0/0|14- vivi

Note : Sorry it's ugly and I didn't clean it up. This might not be anything to be seen, but I have no idea why vivisect didn't go through on this one...was really weird.

Edit: Oh ra didn't break.. this was a bug I had problems with when I started an Infernal...so apparently it happens sometimes. ihdk