No more credits?

Kyrra

Credits from city and house sales would count toward the lesson bonus from converting bound credits as well. Isn't that a bonus of 2000 lessons all up?

Trevize

Kyrra said:

Credits from city and house sales would count toward the lesson bonus from converting bound credits as well. Isn't that a bonus of 2000 lessons all up?

Oh. No idea! I haven't had that bonus in years, so I wasn't aware. Very nice.

Kyrra

Trevize said:

Kyrra said:

Credits from city and house sales would count toward the lesson bonus from converting bound credits as well. Isn't that a bonus of 2000 lessons all up?

Oh. No idea! I haven't had that bonus in years, so I wasn't aware. Very nice.


I believe @Carmain mentioned using house credits to help train novices that show potential to stick around. If I am not mistaken, those help toward accessing the initial lesson bonus, which helps trans at least one class skill.

Sena

Kyrra said:

Credits from city and house sales would count toward the lesson bonus from converting bound credits as well. Isn't that a bonus of 2000 lessons all up?

2500 lessons total. 2.5 lessons per credit for the first 1000 credits you bind.

Nizaris

Teg said:

I'm of the opinion that it is pretty underhanded because it's inherently trying to hide information from the consumer, which is to say it's intentionally hiding the fact that the game will cost money if you want to pk until after new players have already invested time into it when expectation runs to the counter. I understand why IRE wants to do it, but it certainly is underhanded.

@Teg: I'm sorry that you feel that way. I don't know who you are, or what your background is, but I can tell you this as someone who works in sales: having to establish value before discussion of cost is pretty standard. Especially when your product is of intangible benefit. If I led off each one of my sales demos with the cost instead of with the benefit, I would never sell anything; people would stop listening pretty quickly.

I personally recommend to everyone that I know that they spend at least some time working in a true sales profession. I'm not talking working as a clerk or stocker in some place like Wal-Mart; I'm talking a profession where your job is to persuade people to part with their money. Sales is an extremely valuable skillset and knowledge base to have: it gains you business acumen, as well as experience in the art of persuasion, which is handy in both business and personal endeavours. Hell, I found that the experience helped me when I was dating.

Kyrra

I find that's very true when working in real estate. I might be strictly administration but part of handling marketing involves being able to sell a product, knowing everything about and answering all queries. Price ranges are good for knowing what someone's budget is but ultimately it's about what you're selling and not the price tag attached to it.

Sylvance

Yep, the idea that techniques of persuasion are somehow evil is a strange notion indeed.

Nellaundra

As for the PvP thing, I literally just spent around 100~ credits for a very -small- wedding solely for IC reasons.  Would I have done better in combat if I had put them towards that?  Undoubtedly.  Would I have been happier?  Hell no.  I've still got some more to spend solely for this.

Roleplay trumps mechanics every single time.

Nellaundra

To add to the point above (and because I'm sleepy and forgot to put the point in before) mechanics should always help -supplement- roleplay.  You can't RP being a blade wielding badass if you're terrible at combat and have no lessons in learning a sword specialization.  But, that doesn't mean mechanics should just take center stage.  You take bits from the mechanics, turn them into roleplay and blend the whole nice mix together into an awesome smoothie that you share with everyone and then you're popular.

Nim

Roleplay is important, and is probably a huge reason for a lot of players picking up or continuing to play Achaea. If I didn't ever roleplay in Achaea, I'd have gotten bored a loonnngg time ago.

That said, I don't like people using roleplay as a defense or distraction from looking at Achaea's mechanics, because good roleplaying can come through any medium. I have legitimately roleplayed and had fun doing so using ZSNES's chat system. I absolutely hate certain tabletop RPG systems, but I'd still play them if I got to roleplay. Actually, I hate a lot of things Achaea does, but I play it anyway because sometimes the roleplay is charming or fun. Good roleplay is amazing, but having good roleplay isn't an excuse to avoid looking at the mechanics behind the roleplay.

Another thing is, you might say we're entitled, but a lot of people are entitled. If you want an example of an industry badly affected by piracy, go check out the anime industry - and all because a lot of people feel entitled to free anime. If you think having more entitled players would ruin the game, that's an argument, although one you ought to prove, but just saying "you're entitled, go away" isn't very productive.

If you think reaching transcended in a skill ought to be hard work, I can't speak for everyone, but I personally agree. I just think that it should be more stable hard work than it is now. Something part of the mechanics of the game itself, and something newbies can look forward to, rather than dread.

You know what was an awesome thing? The 1/day bound credit you got for posting. That helped get me to Trans Two Arts, which got me into PvP (not just with @Nellaundra, but with just about anyone!), which made Achaea a lot more fun for me as a whole. If IRE could bring that back, possibly in a more positive form, and made sure new players were aware of it, I think that'd probably be a cool solution. I just can't think of how to do that.

tl;dr: stop saying mean things, I just want this game to be more approachable ;_; (also, I had a bunch of alternative ideas, but I forgot them all over being sick, sorry T_T )

Mishgul

I always get confused when people use the term roleplaying like it's a specific thing you do in achaea, when everything you do in achaea, be it combat, art, literature, politics, trying to find Carmain while he is afk to instantkill him etc all are encompassed by the broad term of "roleplay" which is something that is happening as soon as you login to achaea. It's not like someone decides to fight and suddenly he's not roleplaying.

Drauka

Mishgul said:

I always get confused when people use the term roleplaying like it's a specific thing you do in achaea, when everything you do in achaea, be it combat, art, literature, politics, trying to find Carmain while he is afk to instantkill him etc all are encompassed by the broad term of "roleplay" which is something that is happening as soon as you login to achaea. It's not like someone decides to fight and suddenly he's not roleplaying.

Agree 100%.

It's definitely in noticing that your character is what's in Achaea and not _you_. 

Nyboe

Just checked about 15 of the posters in the last two pages and all of them are tri trans or better.

No point in arguing. I am pretty much alone. If I was tri-trans I too would probably want to hold my power in the game by saying stuff like "Its easy to make 40k gold an hour" or "you don't have to buy credits you can just go around enjoying fishing/questing/roleplaying or running for politics as a piss weak toon and still have fun."

Sylvance

I can get behind the sentiment of what you're saying, Carmain, but a person is not role playing just because they happen to be logged in and active behind their keyboard.

Kyrra

@Nyboe, my only point was that we all started somewhere. When I started playing, about the only person with artifacts was Jarik ( :x ) and the sort of massive credit purchases you see today were a lot less common.

It's disappointing when people feel put out because things aren't so accessible in the beginning, and suggestions can be made for consideration by the admin on ways to improve that.

Most if us just want new players to fall in love with the aspects of the game that drew many of us in years ago. Where credits didn't matter as much, people were rarely fully transed and pvp didn't require tri trans and a system. We just want you to know there's plenty more to the game.

Drauka

Nyboe said:

Just checked about 15 of the posters in the last two pages and all of them are tri trans or better.

No point in arguing. I am pretty much alone. If I was tri-trans I too would probably want to hold my power in the game by saying stuff like "Its easy to make 40k gold an hour" or "you don't have to buy credits you can just go around enjoying fishing/questing/roleplaying or running for politics as a piss weak toon and still have fun."

I've had Drauka for a long time. I remember in like 2005 or 2006 I spent part of my tax refund (I got them then) on Drauka.

I didn't trans everything all at once. I have traded in many artefacts and gotten new ones or lessons with it (such a waste), but I didn't trans everything at once. When I came back into the game, I had no class, house, or city. I chose a class, spent  the subscription credits on lessons, and then spent $100 more to finish them off. 

I could have waited but the money to benefit ratio is worth it for me, so it was a no-brainer.

I am a fan of people buying credits once they are hooked. I've never really been of the opinion that you can do just fine without purchasing them, at least not if they're like me and don't want to wait for years to trans skills and get artefacts and houses. Ain't nobody got time for that!

I also wanted to try out other classes, and need lessons to get those skills to trans, and I did that quite a few times. It was worth it to me. Do I wish I could go back in time and have those credits back, sure, I have a few things I wanna purchase right now. But that's how the game is supported.

Just now, since I came back this time, I've "discovered" the whole world outside of really just trans a class and play with it a while. I really am discovering the wonders of interaction with other characters, combat (well a glimpse at it at the moment), and all the time spent by others in Drauka's House in the past. I mean, all the stuff Wulfen did for the Congregation house and is recorded in libraries is just wonderful!

If I had taken the time and energy early on to learn where best to bash and quest to get exp and gold to buy credits (they used to be closer to 5k when I started), I may be singing a different tune, but I did not. I took the fast route.

I also think that maybe since all the wonder of what other classes are about is gone, from having jumped around to so many, it leaves me standing in "wow, this is a make-believe world full of awesome!". Even though current House and City leaders may have no been leaders for that long (well some have), but there is a rich history made by players (outside of IRE published lore) that is very very awesome. It really gives a generational feel to the lore of a House and City, as many of them aren't around anymore. The public library in Mhaldor has books in it that have news posts and just scribed stuff from long ago, that is still relevant today. This is kinda what the game is for me now. I think "the grass is always greener" state of mind is gone.

The only skills I have left to train are the rest of Inkmilling (so I can make posters, even if just for my own house rooms) and once activated, the  shipping one and chef tradeskill.

Mishgul

Sylvance said:

I can get behind the sentiment of what you're saying, Carmain, but a person is not role playing just because they happen to be logged in and active behind their keyboard.

I'm not my character. My character existing is already 'roleplay'. Just because i've passed out on my keyboard and Sohl has devoured me doesn't mean there is no roleplay.

My character just daydreamed hard enough to not notice his head coming off or his soul parting his body, because he is that bad ass.

Nim

Mishgul said:

I always get confused when people use the term roleplaying like it's a specific thing you do in achaea, when everything you do in achaea, be it combat, art, literature, politics, trying to find Carmain while he is afk to instantkill him etc all are encompassed by the broad term of "roleplay" which is something that is happening as soon as you login to achaea. It's not like someone decides to fight and suddenly he's not roleplaying.

Server-side aliases, issuing, OOC tells/msgs/clans, probably reading the announce posts, the actual mechanical act of changing your description, and submitting ideas/typos/bugs. Just things players can do.

A lot of behind-the-scenes admin stuff, including programming, scripting, actually creating new areas (roleplay might be involved in revealing/accessing them, but the roleplay is usually not that Phaestus built this area MUD room by room, except in the rare case that it actually is), handling issues, OOC admin discussions, etc. I've never been an admin, so I can only guess at their wondrous work.

Mechanical things and game rules aren't roleplay. Things like damage calculations for attacks, game logic behind abilities, etc. Roleplay might influence their design process, but those variables are not putting on wizard hats and casting spells, no sir. (at least, not when the CPU's watching)

ETA: can we start a discussion on what roleplay is and isn't already?

Drauka

we starts with you

Nim

ok, I will try, but I already take a ridiculous amount of time just replying to posts. Starting a discussion on something that vague might take me weeks T_T

Sylvance

Nyboe said:

Just checked about 15 of the posters in the last two pages and all of them are tri trans or better.

No point in arguing. I am pretty much alone. If I was tri-trans I too would probably want to hold my power in the game by saying stuff like "Its easy to make 40k gold an hour" or "you don't have to buy credits you can just go around enjoying fishing/questing/roleplaying or running for politics as a piss weak toon and still have fun."

And I'm guessing that those 15 weren't 'tri trans or better' when they had as few hours of game time racked up as I'm guessing you have based on some of what you're posting.  Did you check age as well, or just might before you made this pretty outrageous comment?

Trilliana

Nyboe said:

Just checked about 15 of the posters in the last two pages and all of them are tri trans or better.

No point in arguing. I am pretty much alone. If I was tri-trans I too would probably want to hold my power in the game by saying stuff like "Its easy to make 40k gold an hour" or "you don't have to buy credits you can just go around enjoying fishing/questing/roleplaying or running for politics as a piss weak toon and still have fun."

I wasn't always tri-trans. I worked my butt off to get tritrans when I was a Paladin, ratted, fished, hunted, quested for the gold for credits. heck, I always make sure that if I know I'm going dormant that my characters have gold enough to pay for armour and a couple vials of health when I come back to them. This is supposed to be a GAME. It is supposed to be FUN. If combat is your passion, then you have to hunt a lot to pay for the things you'll need. If politics are your thing, you don't need to be tritrans, it's not a requirement. Heck, I'm sure I could change class and only have enough for one skill and still be able to do what I need to do and no one will be upset at me not being tritrans. There's no way I could make 40k in an hour unless I'm on a really really good deep sea fishing run, but even then, I stick to land fishing because I have kids to take care of. (Sailing + kids = good time for pirates to sink me )

You are what makes the game fun, not anything else. You need to find your own happiness, your own passion in the game. And maybe, if you're patient, you might see changes to help others that have been or are in your situation.

Sylvance

Well said, @Trilliana. And reminds me of some of the best advice I ever heard in Achaea: It's nobody else's responsibility to make you have fun in Achaea.  I get that that's different to the debate that is raging in this thread, but the bottom line is still important: There's a crapton of enjoyment to be had out there if you go and look for it. And the game is what you make it.

Mishgul

Nim said:

Mishgul said:

I always get confused when people use the term roleplaying like it's a specific thing you do in achaea, when everything you do in achaea, be it combat, art, literature, politics, trying to find Carmain while he is afk to instantkill him etc all are encompassed by the broad term of "roleplay" which is something that is happening as soon as you login to achaea. It's not like someone decides to fight and suddenly he's not roleplaying.

Server-side aliases, issuing, OOC tells/msgs/clans, probably reading the announce posts, the actual mechanical act of changing your description, and submitting ideas/typos/bugs. Just things players can do.

A lot of behind-the-scenes admin stuff, including programming, scripting, actually creating new areas (roleplay might be involved in revealing/accessing them, but the roleplay is usually not that Phaestus built this area MUD room by room, except in the rare case that it actually is), handling issues, OOC admin discussions, etc. I've never been an admin, so I can only guess at their wondrous work.

Mechanical things and game rules aren't roleplay. Things like damage calculations for attacks, game logic behind abilities, etc. Roleplay might influence their design process, but those variables are not putting on wizard hats and casting spells, no sir. (at least, not when the CPU's watching)

ETA: can we start a discussion on what roleplay is and isn't already?

None of these things your character is doing, as soon as you got OOC you've forsaken the character for the person behind the character. Your character isn't you but kind of like an "avatar" (in a somewhat loose sense of the word).

Things like changing your description shouldn't be considered OOC in my opinion. You are playing a character in a magical world, and using OOC consistencies to explain some of these things is a slippery slope that should be avoided. It's best that a lot of things just have no explanation at all. Pretend you are about to ask something like "Why is soul?"

In the end, it is just a game, and trying to create some sort of weird explanation to satisfy an OOC argument, for the sake of trying to prove that being able to combine macros/aliases is some sort of OOC ritual that should be set apart from roleplay because of the way you consider it seems like a waste of time, when you could just accept that while I can't tell that I have 2331 hit points IRL, I can in Achaea, because of cats.

Nyboe

Drauka said:

Nyboe said:

Just checked about 15 of the posters in the last two pages and all of them are tri trans or better.

No point in arguing. I am pretty much alone. If I was tri-trans I too would probably want to hold my power in the game by saying stuff like "Its easy to make 40k gold an hour" or "you don't have to buy credits you can just go around enjoying fishing/questing/roleplaying or running for politics as a piss weak toon and still have fun."

I've had Drauka for a long time. I remember in like 2005 or 2006 I spent part of my tax refund (I got them then) on Drauka.

I didn't trans everything all at once. I have traded in many artefacts and gotten new ones or lessons with it (such a waste), but I didn't trans everything at once. When I came back into the game, I had no class, house, or city. I chose a class, spent  the subscription credits on lessons, and then spent $100 more to finish them off. 

I could have waited but the money to benefit ratio is worth it for me, so it was a no-brainer.

I am a fan of people buying credits once they are hooked. I've never really been of the opinion that you can do just fine without purchasing them, at least not if they're like me and don't want to wait for years to trans skills and get artefacts and houses. Ain't nobody got time for that!

I also wanted to try out other classes, and need lessons to get those skills to trans, and I did that quite a few times. It was worth it to me. Do I wish I could go back in time and have those credits back, sure, I have a few things I wanna purchase right now. But that's how the game is supported.

Just now, since I came back this time, I've "discovered" the whole world outside of really just trans a class and play with it a while. I really am discovering the wonders of interaction with other characters, combat (well a glimpse at it at the moment), and all the time spent by others in Drauka's House in the past. I mean, all the stuff Wulfen did for the Congregation house and is recorded in libraries is just wonderful!

If I had taken the time and energy early on to learn where best to bash and quest to get exp and gold to buy credits (they used to be closer to 5k when I started), I may be singing a different tune, but I did not. I took the fast route.

I also think that maybe since all the wonder of what other classes are about is gone, from having jumped around to so many, it leaves me standing in "wow, this is a make-believe world full of awesome!". Even though current House and City leaders may have no been leaders for that long (well some have), but there is a rich history made by players (outside of IRE published lore) that is very very awesome. It really gives a generational feel to the lore of a House and City, as many of them aren't around anymore. The public library in Mhaldor has books in it that have news posts and just scribed stuff from long ago, that is still relevant today. This is kinda what the game is for me now. I think "the grass is always greener" state of mind is gone.

The only skills I have left to train are the rest of Inkmilling (so I can make posters, even if just for my own house rooms) and once activated, the  shipping one and chef tradeskill.

Okay I see how the system works. I agree I am not going to waste anymore time on this game I am just going to pay them money so I can save my real life time as that is more valuable to me. I mean I only need to work for a few hours to get the Iron membership which gives me like 100 credits per month, some exp and some extra lessons. So basically I work for about 3 hours and then I get credits that save me about 100 hours of bashing/hunting/questing.

I am totally motivated to get a job this summer after I finish my college work. Thanks guys.

Tesha

Regarding how difficult it is to tri-trans without purchasing credits, this is the reason I started teaching my first protege about quests the moment she was ready to understand them. I did 50-65ish in Ulangi, then someone showed me Xhaiden Dale, Inbhir Ness is an easy 2250 gold in just over a minute... the amount of gold you can make is astounding if you have the time/energy for it. 150k gold in a day was not really difficult for me if I had the quests, 

It is possible. Really. I have purchased credits and I have elite now, but I transcended curses and got my tailoring license without purchasing credits, Just stick it out, and prod your mentor for help. They are there for this kind of thing, and if they do not know how to help you, look for someone who can (hi!). It is really easy to get discouraged, but gold generation is really not that hard once you figure things out.

Garao

Please stop with the general sweeping comments about what you perceive roleplay to be. The reasons people play this game and thus find to be the most fun aspect(s) of Achaea differ. Such statements of 'Roleplay trumping mechanics' (what does this even mean and what relevance does it have in this discussion? - but I think I get your implication, and no I still don't agree with you) are as ignorant as people saying combat is absolutely definitively the best part of Achaea. Again, not that it even has anything to do with this O.o?

I don't really think there is much else to say on this actual topic, the admin have looked over the arguments and are going to do something. I'm interested to know what that something will be. Hmm.

Iocun

Garao said:

I don't really think there is much else to say on this actual topic, the admin have looked over the arguments and are going to do something. I'm interested to know what that something will be. Hmm.

Probably the deletion of veils.

Vaehl

Drauka

Credits only get you so much, though. Still gotta bash or quest to get levels, still gotta learn combat to participate, still need to participate in house and cities to move up.

Most of the things I spent credits for lessons on don't even matter. The artifacts I have really don't matter (a letter kit, taper and signet ring really don't matter that much). Paying for credits to gold for tailoring and jewelry really don't matter that much either.

I just wanted it so I paid for it. It's the nature of the game. It pays the bills.