No more credits?

Xli

Sena said:

Xli said:

I still stand by my idea of 15 lessons for 10k gold though.

For a newbie (or anyone who hasn't bound 1000 credits yet), that's equal to 5666 gold per credit. Not really a big difference from the current credit market, and more expensive when the market prices drop.

But a fixed rate, paid direct to the denizen, unaffected by fluctuations in the credit market. As a player unable or unwilling to purchase credits outside the game, you know what your gold will buy. You still have the option to purchase credits on the open market and possibly get a bargain. It's disheartening to see someone post CFS on the Market channel to see the credits listed are 1 gold less than the next highest... 6249 gold rather than 6250.

Shirszae

Sena said:

Xli said:

I still stand by my idea of 15 lessons for 10k gold though.

For a newbie (or anyone who hasn't bound 1000 credits yet), that's equal to 5666 gold per credit. Not really a big difference from the current credit market, and more expensive when the market prices drop.

Will it drop? Does it -ever- drops? Ever since I started playing, the price of credits ig has only ever gone up, whatever the reason.

Mishgul

It drops when a delos shop is for sale momentarily

Achilles

you see it drop when there are auctions in general.

Sena

Shirszae said:

Will it drop? Does it -ever- drops? Ever since I started playing, the price of credits ig has only ever gone up, whatever the reason.

The prices go down for a while whenever a large gold sink is introduced (they were at 5500 near the end of the last auction, the introduction of ships (and the addition of war galleys to a lesser extent) dropped prices a lot), or someone intentionally sells a ton of cheaper credits to lower the prices, but they usually stabilise around 6000 eventually.

Eld

Teg said:

Secos said:

I don't know where you guys are getting making 40k gold an hour.  Most players don't know how to do that.  I barely spend any gold and I have maybe 15k gold to my name.  I get 5-10k gold an hour bashing at lvl 79 tops.  Quests are impossible to decipher and to make that kind of money from questing you would need to be around for a really long time and know the ends and outs of everything.  Not to mention if I were to even ask existing players how to make this kind of money or do these quests they would simply give me very vague answers...essentially telling me to teach myself.

Are you in a house?

Because I never had problems with getting guild members telling me where/how I should be farming gold.

But yeah, seems to me that the given number of 25k-40k/hr questing is greatly exaggerated and is implicitly based on the assumption that nobody else is farming those quests at the same time.

If you are talking about retaining new players here is what you could do.

1.  Lower the cost of credits/membership/etc.   It's way overpriced compared to the gaming market in general.

2.  Let someone get dual or tri transed via in game methods outside of gold.  What would it really hurt if it increased retention?  More competition?  Bruised egos because it took someone 5 years to get there without spending any money?

You don't -want- to actively retain too many new players who are non-paying though.

Like you want to retain enough so things don't get lonely for the paying players, but really, a non-paying player doesn't generate any profit beyond that. Maybe lowering prices will also generate more paying customers but retaining players for the sake of retaining players or at expense of profits make no sense for a business.



I disagree. You want to retain as many active players who contribute to the world as possible whether they pay or not. Yes, IRE is a business and needs to maintain a certain income from people spending real money on credits, artefacts, etc, but having more active players is never going to detract from the pool of customers.

Drauka

Anaidiana said:

Love that you used a Labyrinth reference!

Teg

I disagree. You want to retain as many active players who contribute to the world as possible whether they pay or not. Yes, IRE is a business and needs to maintain a certain income from people spending real money on credits, artefacts, etc, but having more active players is never going to detract from the pool of customers.

Oh obviously having more players might be a net good and all, it's just that it shouldn't be done so at the cost of the actual profit margin and is not in IRE's interest to be done for its own sake.

Trevize

Never had trouble. And I changed class on Trevize a -lot-, as well as built a 5-room house (with upgrades), and bought a few arties. While only buying a few credits to make him perm. The rest was all IG.

(at least until recently, now I've settled in a class and am saving up for some arties. about time, after ten or so years of playing!)

Eld

Teg said:

I disagree. You want to retain as many active players who contribute to the world as possible whether they pay or not. Yes, IRE is a business and needs to maintain a certain income from people spending real money on credits, artefacts, etc, but having more active players is never going to detract from the pool of customers.

Oh obviously having more players might be a net good and all, it's just that it shouldn't be done so at the cost of the actual profit margin and is not in IRE's interest to be done for its own sake.

My point is that retaining more players (even if not paying) is not detrimental to the profit margin, and it _is_ in IRE's interest to do it for its own sake.

Talonia

For starters, more non-paying players means more people who populate the world and make it more enjoyable for customers, either as midbie punching-bags for artie-monks or chatroom buddies for artie-bashers, and more non-paying players also means more people who could tell their friends about it and therefore create more paying players.

Nakari

Teg said:

I disagree. You want to retain as many active players who contribute to the world as possible whether they pay or not. Yes, IRE is a business and needs to maintain a certain income from people spending real money on credits, artefacts, etc, but having more active players is never going to detract from the pool of customers.

Oh obviously having more players might be a net good and all, it's just that it shouldn't be done so at the cost of the actual profit margin and is not in IRE's interest to be done for its own sake.

Casual players that stick around are more likely to be paying players later. Most people aren't going to try something out with the intention of paying, but if they feel like it's worth it and have already made investment into a character, they are probably going to be a whole lot more likely to feel the need to pay for arti's and then like. That's why I think that class skills, or at least a fraction of them should be easier to get. Not because the current marketing strategy suck right now, or because everything is too hard, but because you need to prove that the game is worth paying for before people are going to shell out for all of the other skills. 

Drauka

I think once someone is hooked the odds of them paying for credits is almost a certainty (if they have the means to).

Having more players is always a good thing, even just more players trying the game. Unsure what the new player retention percentage is, but whatever it is having more players thrown at it means more credit sales.

Kyrra

My first couple years playing were without buying credits. I think maybe twice I had tickets in Cyrene's credit lottery. Most of my time was spent learning my way around and focusing on guild advancement which required a lot of writing.

When I wanted to trans Chivalry, I just bribed my father to buy me credits in exchange for taking out my lip ring which he absolutely loathed.

I pretty much went without credits until I disappeared for five years, got a job and started earning money, which I choose to spend on something I enjoy.

Apart from city credit sales, I always submitted ideas for city contests. Cyrenian Mudslides won me 10 credits and I think third place for that contest. The chest that sits in the Ambassador chambers was my idea because I thought it would be beneficial to have somewhere to store items for novices, and the senate happened to agree. Submitting that idea and seeing it implemented won me a couple credits.

You really don't *need* to buy credits, as there are plenty of ways to earn and purchase them in game if you are willing to make the effort. Same way you have to do grind to hunt, quest, or fish to get gold.

I pay people to customise some of my stuff. My gorgeous rapiers were made by @Trey, and my falcon, which I originally designed, was improved on by @Agrias. They both having amazing design skills and were (arguably) happy to be paid for custom work.

And for what it's worth, every few months I buy credits to throw on CFS between 5-6k to help bring the market prices back down but until the player base collectively decides that the value should be lower, people will almost always sell for higher to get more gold.

Sarapis

Kyrra said:

 When I wanted to trans Chivalry, I just bribed my father to buy me credits in exchange for taking out my lip ring which he absolutely loathed.

That is awesome.

Sothantos

I think the question isn't whether players are entitled to free credits, or whether they're entitled to class skills. The more important question is whether new players are being turned off from playing Achaea because of this.

It may not affect newbie-newbies, but from what I've seen, it's definitely a large factor in whether midbies stick around. I've seen many midbies end up discouraged and quitting because of it. Most people simply don't have the time or energy to bash for hours to trans stuff, especially when -- as has been mentioned -- some classes can't even begin to excel at combat without like 4 trans skills, and you pretty much need them to do anything (Xli's slippery slope argument about artefacts doesn't apply because you don't actually need artefacts to do anything). This is especially discouraging because having trans skills doesn't even make you a master at combat, so instead of actually learning about fighting, you've spent all this time bashing just to be able to try it. I mean, it's certainly possible to do it, but is it really good for player retention?

Mishgul

aspire to be vaehl

Tael

Sothantos said:

I think the question isn't whether players are entitled to free credits, or whether they're entitled to class skills. The more important question is whether new players are being turned off from playing Achaea because of this.

It may not affect newbie-newbies, but from what I've seen, it's definitely a large factor in whether midbies stick around. I've seen many midbies end up discouraged and quitting because of it. Most people simply don't have the time or energy to bash for hours to trans stuff, especially when -- as has been mentioned -- some classes can't even begin to excel at combat without like 4 trans skills, and you pretty much need them to do anything (Xli's slippery slope argument about artefacts doesn't apply because you don't actually need artefacts to do anything). This is especially discouraging because having trans skills doesn't even make you a master at combat, so instead of actually learning about fighting, you've spent all this time bashing just to be able to try it. I mean, it's certainly possible to do it, but is it really good for player retention?

I think the real issue is one of player retention vs income. Ultimately, making it easier to get IG credits means lower income. I don't think there's any way to escape that.

I think a problem that keeps popping up in this thread is the consideration of feasibility only in terms of time rather than also in money, which is the fundamental issue. For instance, while "Most people simply don't have the time or energy to bash for hours to trans stuff" (a sentiment with which I agree whole-heartedly), I would counter that most people do have the money to buy some credits (and usually the time to at least somewhat supplement that IG). And those that don't often are the people who have the time to do it all IG.

Unfortunately that leaves out the people who, for whatever unfortunate reasons, have neither the time nor money, but I really don't see how that's avoidable.

Silvarien

Sothantos said:

I think the question isn't whether players are entitled to free credits, or whether they're entitled to class skills. The more important question is whether new players are being turned off from playing Achaea because of this.

It may not affect newbie-newbies, but from what I've seen, it's definitely a large factor in whether midbies stick around. I've seen many midbies end up discouraged and quitting because of it. Most people simply don't have the time or energy to bash for hours to trans stuff, especially when -- as has been mentioned -- some classes can't even begin to excel at combat without like 4 trans skills, and you pretty much need them to do anything (Xli's slippery slope argument about artefacts doesn't apply because you don't actually need artefacts to do anything). This is especially discouraging because having trans skills doesn't even make you a master at combat, so instead of actually learning about fighting, you've spent all this time bashing just to be able to try it. I mean, it's certainly possible to do it, but is it really good for player retention?

I think your argument is perhaps true for people solely interested in PK, but for people doing other things, it's not so true. One does not need tri-trans to run for office, run a House or even run a City. You don't need tri-trans to compete in Bardics or Artisanals, and while bashing requires some skills, I don't think it is to the extent that PK does. Some Divine Orders have a lot of PK involved, but from what I understand, some don't. And even in the ones that do usually fight, I can think of some people that do well without having the ability. So, there's a bunch you can do even if you can't spend a penny.

Honestly, I personally can think of no reason why an involved, creative player cannot in the end ascend to Godhood having bought no credits or almost no credits.

Garao

People do not play this game for the same reasons. Nor does being almost solely interested in combat in Achaea mean you're a 'Lol PKer' or otherwise not interested in roleplay - I mention this because of the argument that people who are interested in combat primarily do not provide benefit to the game - , it's just not the reason you're here. I wish people would stop saying, 'Well I don't see credits as being necessary therefore I'm sure they aren't!'.

Talonia

Uh, @Silvarien, you do know it is no longer possible to Ascend, right?

Silvarien

Talonia said:

Uh, @Silvarien, you do know it is no longer possible to Ascend, right?

No, I didn't know... sorry, I guess my info is outdated.

Nakari

Silvarien said:

Sothantos said:

...

I think your argument is perhaps true for people solely interested in PK, but for people doing other things, it's not so true. One does not need tri-trans to run for office, run a House or even run a City. You don't need tri-trans to compete in Bardics or Artisanals, and while bashing requires some skills, I don't think it is to the extent that PK does. Some Divine Orders have a lot of PK involved, but from what I understand, some don't. And even in the ones that do usually fight, I can think of some people that do well without having the ability. So, there's a bunch you can do even if you can't spend a penny.

Honestly, I personally can think of no reason why an involved, creative player cannot in the end ascend to Godhood having bought no credits or almost no credits.

The problem is that this still assumes one not bing a true newbie. You need a good knowledge of the game to do artisanals and bardics, you need to have built a reputation and know how to lead in-game to really be in an office, and a player new to the game, or especially one new to mudding, is not going to have that expertise.

Iocun

Sothantos said:

(Xli's slippery slope argument about artefacts doesn't apply because you don't actually need artefacts to do anything.

It's not entirely unfounded though. There is the whole "power creep" effect that leads to ever higher things being assumed to be the "minimum standard". Years ago tritrans was definitely -not- expected from fighters, nor were levels beyond 80, nor good curing systems etc. What is a perfectly "normal" fighter today would have been called a credit-whore not so long ago. In a world where fighting happens between players and combat benefits can be bought for money, standards are always shifting.

Garao

I don't think that's born out of a case of self-entitlement to things achaea provides, though, just that overtime people will acquire more and more things. Comparing the average member of the playerbase now to however many years ago isn't a fair comparison simply because of that fact.

Also, this demand, if you will, isn't born out of a feeling of self-entitlement. Artefacts, and credits aren't really a necessary requirement to play achaea for anyone. Combat is a large part of Achaea, and definitely one of its largest selling points. That it takes such a ridiculous investment of either time, money or even both, is really confusing to me. It's not like a person's first one, two or even three class skills make a whole load of the % of money Achaea earns, and all it does in my opinion is turn away the players that could have become addicted and spent more money, but are not given the chance. 

I may be exaggerating the issue, but as a player myself who doesn't wish to spend an extortionate amount of money to get into a MUD, but would 100% spend a lot of money in the future on achaea when I am capable of doing so, it's really, honestly pretty sad. I just can't get hooked into achaea anymore because of this, and it leads to an unfortunate trend of metagaming just to do so

Anyways, yes, I still haven't really seen an argument against just making the first two class skills easier to transcend (possibly just a one time deal, it could even be a TASK which upon completion makes all future class learning exactly the same as before!). 

My input

Iocun

Yeah, certainly don't believe it has anything to do with self-entitlement.

Trevize

Does no one else like earning things?

Xith

It is impossible to tri-trans solely on IG means, unless you're one of those East Asian gamers who has a genetic abundance of whichever amino acid applies to gold farming.

Sena

Xith said:

It is impossible to tri-trans solely on IG means, unless you're one of those East Asian gamers who has a genetic abundance of whichever amino acid applies to gold farming.

I've spent around 5k credits on Sena (probably quite a bit more), and at least 80% of those were gained IG. I'm also extremely lazy, I have trouble even managing to quest/bash an hour a day for a week, so I've never done much serious grinding.

There are several players who have 5+ trans skills and 1k-2k worth of artefacts while playing casually and never spending anything OOC.

Xith

Sena's 220 years old.