No more credits?

Sylvance

If there is one thing I'll agree with it's that paying 6k for a credit and then turning it into 6 lessons does psychologically feel a bit like a foot to the e-peen.

Esgar

Well, as far as I know, there are only three ways to obtain lessons using only ingame methods without credits being involved

Gain a level (5 lessons)

Those currently uncommon get 5 lessons each day you log in or 1 to 10 depending on long you are logged on for said day promotion.

Teach a skill (Not sure how many lessons it takes to gives one, but I believe there is a cap of 10 per RL day)

Now, the last one isn't particularly accessible to a new character, which would be the one that would benefit the most, and is the most beneficial for omnitrans characters to bemoan that they can't use lessons for anything except for the new landmark system. The 2.5 bonus lesson to bind credits does represent an easier progression to the ever noble tritrans well, but I can see many getting discouraged before that point.

Perhaps another way to directly obtain lessons might be beneficial? I'm mostly thinking of something accessible to new characters with a maximum hard cap or rapidly diminishing returns to ease up on things and ease access to at least close to transing one skill, which does always make things more interesting.

Sylvance

@Esgar - don't want to do a 'Disagree' on you because you seem to be new to the forums and it's great that you're posting. But why is directly obtaining lessons through some new mechanic any better than earning credits through an existing mechanic such as bashing or questing?

@Daier - once again, couldn't really agree with you any less on pretty much every point you've made. I think I've said all I can say, so at this point I will respectfully stop debating this with you; I just can't see a single point of common ground.

Esgar

Sylvance said:

@Esgar - don't want to do a 'Disagree' on you because you seem to be new to the forums and it's great that you're posting. But why is directly obtaining lessons through some new mechanic any better than earning credits through an existing mechanic such as bashing or questing?

Because I have multiple rube goldberg machines working in parallel to make my daily breakfast.

Sylvance

Huh?

Sena

@Daeir: A lot of your numbers are wrong.

Daeir said:

The binding credit bonus is for the first 1300 or 1600, I believe, which is not an insignificant amount, as you say. It still isn't enough. Perhaps that bonus could be extended to 3cr extra instead of 1.5 and be extended to cover enough bonus lessons for 2 trans skills (aka 2500+) instead of what it is currently.

The bonus lessons are for the first 1000 credits you bind (even if you don't convert the credits to lessons), and it's an extra 2.5 lessons per credit. That means the bonus lessons (plus levelling to 70) already last long enough for 5.5 trans skills.

Daeir said:

40k an hour, assuming a very cheap price of 6k per credit equals roughly ~7 credits an hour (rounded up). Assuming you buy these, bind them and convert them to lessons, this is 42 lessons per hour. Transcendent is 1736~ lessons - 1736/42 = 41.33 hours of dedicated, serious questing to obtain transcendent in ONE skill.

With these numbers (although 40k per hour for a newbie is pretty unlikely), it would actually be 24.2 hours for a single trans skill, or 72.6 for three.

Tri-trans requires 1736*3=5208 lessons. Level 70 gets you 1095 lessons (100 bound credits = 600 lessons, 69 levels gained = 345 lessons, and you start with 150 at level 1), so that leaves (5208-1095)/8.5=484 credits still needed. With 6k gold per credit and 40k gold per hour, that's 72.6 hours for tri-trans.

Kazu

There's also that newbie task for another 5 credits.

Iocun

You also won't have to pay 6k per credit if you join a city and house and make use of city/house credit sales.

Xli

Xli is trans in 2 class skills, and has spent enough lessons on other skills (Survival, Vision and Tattoos) to be tri-trans, without purchasing any OOC credits. He's won a few in contests, been given a few by kind hearted house-mates and familty members and bought house credits, city credits and some from the credit market. It does take a while for the gold to start coming at a decent enough rate from hunting, but there's places where doing a set of quests in under 10 minutes can net you over 6k gold.

Idea: How about being able to pay denizen tutors a set amount for lessons, eg 10k gold for a set of 15 lessons (cheaper than 6 lessons from a 6k credit)?

Nyboe

Sena said:

Nyboe said:

So after we reach this point in the game becomes either pay to progress your skills or live in a basement bashing/ratting/questing for gold at 6-7k an hour.

You can get far more than 6-7k an hour. Casual questing can get you 20-25k gold per hour, serious questing can get you more than 40k in an hour if you don't have much competition for the quests. High level bashing also gives a lot of gold.

40k per hour? I have seen many high level players level 90+ say they make about 8-9k an hour average bashing. Some can make a little more. But the most I have ever seen was 24k an hour but this can only be done with bashing with a dragon. Leveling up to 100 is probably just as difficult as getting more lessons.

As of now I do not see any viable way that a new player can make more then 6k an hour without either paying money or giving up their life to this game.
I've looked at bard and artistic competitions and I just don't have the drawing talent or the creativity to win those. To buy city credits you have to receive certain recognition from the city and even after that you still have to throw hundreds of hours down the sink doing mindless and repetitive tasks. I've tried fishing/ratting/questing/bashing. Questing so far makes the most for me about 5-6k per hour if nobody kills the denizens. But many times people do kill denizens so its not a constant rate.

Arlanda

Daeir said:

That certainly seems more respectable, but is still a large amount of time. Thanks for clearing that up. How long would it take on average to bash to 70, though?

If you only do bashing and nothing else (no House tasks, no city interaction) it is very very fast. I was actively doing House tasks, promotion tasks and got Level 80 before my character turned 19 years old.It really depends on how hardcore you are on hunting and how efficient you are. Level 98 to 99 took about 14-15 hours for me. The more proficient hunters might tell you lower timings

Sylvance

It would sure as all hell drop the price of credits on market, but some people (and perhaps the Admin?) will fight tooth-and-claw against it for that very reason.

Talonia

Or you could all stop playing this game like WoW, bash a little here, quest a little there, while mostly exploring, immersing yourselves in the history, and especially RPing. Not a single ability (save perhaps for your most basic bashing one, if there are minimum level requirements) is necessary to get into almost every divine order, for instance.   

Sena

Nyboe said:

40k per hour? I have seen many high level players level 90+ say they make about 8-9k an hour average bashing. Some can make a little more. But the most I have ever seen was 24k an hour but this can only be done with bashing with a dragon.

Doing all the quests on Ulangi and Mysia will give around 6-9k gold, and that can be done around 3 times per hour (if you're the only one doing the quests). That leaves a lot of downtime while quest denizens/items respawn too, so you can go quest in other places while you wait. That can all be done at level 40-50, it doesn't require a high level or trans skills. There are several other quests/areas that good, some of them even better.

High level bashing can give 20k-30k per hour too, from what I've heard (I've never bothered bashing to dragon).

Nyboe said:

Leveling up to 100 is probably just as difficult as getting more lessons.

It's actually far more difficult. Most players will never reach dragon (not because they can't, but because it's a lot of work), even if they play for several years. By the time you bash to dragon, you could be omnitrans with several artefacts even without spending real money on credits.

Nyboe

Ognog said:

You can also convert the gold sovereigns you have into credits on the credit market - just type CFS!

If purchasing credits doesn't appeal, it is also well worth considering Iron Elite Membership - it's the most cost effective way to gain credits, lessons and experience. As an Iron Elite member I'm contributing to the further development of the game on a regular basis. When I consider how many hours of enjoyment I get out of it each month, I see good value for money.

I may end up purchasing a membership just because I value my life more then game. Though I won't do it right away though as to give me some time to think about whether or not I want to actually succumb to Achaea's evil business model.

Garao

I suggested a little while ago just making class skills require 1200 lessons instead of 1736 (but that is probably too drastic, dropping the amount required to tri-trans from 5208 to 3600 (Can make a players basic hunting skill cost 1,200 instead, and keep the rest the same or only slightly lowered.). Either that or make it easier to obtain lessons, at least initially. Achaea's difficulty in even getting properly started with your abilities has probably turned away so many new players that eventually may have actually spent money on Achaea. It's happened to a couple of friends I tried to introduce to the game. 

Something really should be done about it. 

Sylvance

I hope this doesn't sound elitist, because that's not my intention, but I think that one of the best things about Achaea is that most of the players that stick around are not the WoW crowd that are logging in for a series of quick dings and lulz.  Other than the odd trollalt and a few dedicated griefers we have a better balance of mature players than many, many games I've played on the internets.

I like the type of player that is willing to divert gratification by the the time the dinging slows down at level 70. I less like the type of player that would be turned off by the 'lesson-learning curve' that seems to be the sticking point in this thread.  It didn't put any of us off, else we wouldn't be here to bitch about it.

Arlanda

Nyboe said:

Sena said:

Nyboe said:

So after we reach this point in the game becomes either pay to progress your skills or live in a basement bashing/ratting/questing for gold at 6-7k an hour.

You can get far more than 6-7k an hour. Casual questing can get you 20-25k gold per hour, serious questing can get you more than 40k in an hour if you don't have much competition for the quests. High level bashing also gives a lot of gold.

40k per hour? I have seen many high level players level 90+ say they make about 8-9k an hour average bashing. Some can make a little more. But the most I have ever seen was 24k an hour but this can only be done with bashing with a dragon. Leveling up to 100 is probably just as difficult as getting more lessons.

As of now I do not see any viable way that a new player can make more then 6k an hour without either paying money or giving up their life to this game.
I've looked at bard and artistic competitions and I just don't have the drawing talent or the creativity to win those. To buy city credits you have to receive certain recognition from the city and even after that you still have to throw hundreds of hours down the sink doing mindless and repetitive tasks. I've tried fishing/ratting/questing/bashing. Questing so far makes the most for me about 5-6k per hour if nobody kills the denizens. But many times people do kill denizens so its not a constant rate.

Levelling up to 100 is as difficult as getting lessons? When you hunt from level 80 to 99 I think you will eat your words back. If you think getting dragon is easier than getting lessons then go ahead and get dragon instead, dragonhood comes with free trans-ed dragoncraft.

I don't see why class skills, gold per hour, hunting is everything one sees in Achaea. Enjoy the RP, the house tasks, city interaction. There is much more than lessons, credits and gold in Achaea. 

Drauka

One think I learned from this thread: I need to learn more about questing. I don't make much gold at all.

Sena

Arlanda said:

I don't see why class skills, gold per hour, hunting is everything one sees in Achaea. Enjoy the RP, the house tasks, city interaction. There is much more than lessons, credits and gold in Achaea. 

I agree, I've been playing Achaea for more than 10 years, on quite a few different characters, and the vast majority of them were never tri-trans. In fact, I think the first time I was ever tri-trans was after I'd already been playing for 4-ish years. I still enjoyed the game just fine.

Arlanda

Actually, getting to level 70 (which if in your suggestion is to get enough lessons to trans a skill) is faster than the time you need to wait to graduate from fledgling to journeyman... People would probably end up creating a new character a week just to play with a trans class skill.

Drauka

Sena said:

Arlanda said:

I don't see why class skills, gold per hour, hunting is everything one sees in Achaea. Enjoy the RP, the house tasks, city interaction. There is much more than lessons, credits and gold in Achaea. 

I agree, I've been playing Achaea for more than 10 years, on quite a few different characters, and the vast majority of them were never tri-trans. In fact, I think the first time I was ever tri-trans was after I'd already been playing for 4-ish years. I still enjoyed the game just fine.

This is something I'm just now learning. The natural idea is to be like "I'm going to max out all my skills and be all-powerful and then I win Achaea!", but it's much richer than that.

I'm just now getting a glimpse at what can exist in city and house development, working with others, trade skills, and even death by another player (for valid reasons) doesn't bother me anymore as it's part of the game. 

After you trans everything and even get to dragon, then what? Did you win? Are you done? I found that I really did ignore most of the other players when I did play before I came back this last time, and now starting to try to make that a priority (other than bashing by myself for hours all alone). There's more to it than that. If only I'd realized that when I first started  

Like I said, I'm only getting a glimpse of it all now, but I'm excited about the game now in a way I never was before. Buying credits for trans won't buy happiness (though it is nice, don't get me wrong).

Sena

Arlanda said:

Actually, getting to level 70 (which if in your suggestion is to get enough lessons to trans a skill) is faster than the time you need to wait to graduate from fledgling to journeyman... People would probably end up creating a new character a week just to play with a trans class skill.

I considered this, but having a bunch more single-trans alts doesn't seem like much of a problem to me. Even in the potentially problematic cases (like suddenly having a lot more serpents with phase), it still seems fine, since an experienced player usually won't have much trouble reaching single-trans anyways.

Penwize

Nyboe said:

40k per hour? I have seen many high level players level 90+ say they make about 8-9k an hour average bashing. Some can make a little more. But the most I have ever seen was 24k an hour but this can only be done with bashing with a dragon. Leveling up to 100 is probably just as difficult as getting more lessons.

As of now I do not see any viable way that a new player can make more then 6k an hour without either paying money or giving up their life to this game.
I've looked at bard and artistic competitions and I just don't have the drawing talent or the creativity to win those. To buy city credits you have to receive certain recognition from the city and even after that you still have to throw hundreds of hours down the sink doing mindless and repetitive tasks. I've tried fishing/ratting/questing/bashing. Questing so far makes the most for me about 5-6k per hour if nobody kills the denizens. But many times people do kill denizens so its not a constant rate.

...I can get 6k in like, 5 minutes maybe.  That's a handful of deathknights.  If people are making 8-9k/hour bashing, they're either bashing things way too slowly (usually a symptom of bashing things way higher level than they should be) or not paying attention to the quests in the area.  I can very easily make 20k/hour casually bashing xp-heavy areas (ie, not looking for gold), or upwards of 60k/hour when I'm gunning straight for gold.  Sena has already given you one good example of this that can be done by even mid-levels.

Also, I still don't really see the timing argument here either.  @Daeir, your comparison to DK is just off base horribly. Unless things have changed significantly since I played, DKs start at level 55, and you need a character that's 60+ already just to make one.  So, you're comparing starting fresh with nothing in Achaea to levelling and gearing a character on an account that already has a high-level character to feed wealth from, and that has a huge head-start on the levelling curve.  I'm going to have to fundamentally disagree with everything you cited as an example.

Sylvance

It's actually at the point that I'm wondering if @Daeir is trolling.  You just cannot be that wrong and that bombastic by accident.

Mishgul

Also achaea is a business, more freebies could potentially mean more lag

Daslin

Delphinus said:

 house-elf, 

DOBBY NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Averi

Sylvance said:

It didn't put any of us off, else we wouldn't be here to bitch about it.

It put me off for 4 years. I got tired of bashing all the time and not having skills and suicided. But I came back cause I was procrastinating and couldn't find anything else to procrastinate with. And then I learned how to combat and OMG that is the most addicting part of this game in my opinion -granted I'm not at all good at it. Bashing and questing is very boring and I am very bad at it. The most I've ever earned is like 15k an hour. But still... I think I monotransed without buying credits. It just took me one rl year.

I think it would be nice if we could reduce the number of lessons required for our basic hunting skill.  Too many people leave my class cause hunting in it sucks. I would have too were it not for my over fondness for rapiers.

Kyrra

Most classes have an attack skill that's very early on in abilities, even of it's just slashing with a shortsword or punching with rocky fists. It's not phenomenal but should be infinitely better than newbie kicking things to death.

@Sylvance, the credit market is controlled by the player base. It rises and falls based off supply, demand, and greed.

The influx of gold from the recent auctions means a lot people likely bought credits to resell to make more gold, which gradually drives the prices up. Well, people do that sometimes anyway.

It's why I always suggest asking over Market if anyone is selling credits below market value.

Eld

Kyrra said:

Most classes have an attack skill that's very early on in abilities, even of it's just slashing with a shortsword or punching with rocky fists. It's not phenomenal but should be infinitely better than newbie kicking things to death.

Yes, but many of those get stronger with more lessons in the skill, or are supplanted by better abilities later on, and how viable they are for somewhat higher-level bashing is pretty variable. My recollection from magi and sylvan alts a while back is that hunting with firelash above about level 70 was pretty abysmal, and I don't think the lessons from levels and bound credits up to 70 is enough to get to staff/viridian. Not sure what the situation is for bard.