No more credits?

Sidonia

Which means it must be impossible.

Sena

Xith said:

Sena's 220 years old.

Tri-trans at 67 years old. That was after buying 100 credits, but also after changing class twice (a loss of far more than 100 credits). Quad-trans with an artefact halberd and two room house by 80, total credits purchased up to 225 (less than the value of the halberd).

Edit: Missed a credit purchase, it was actually 475 total by 80 years old. But that's still 900+ credits earned IG.

Sherazad

I've had 2 characters tritrans within an RL year, and Shera's 9 trans right now. That's without spending RL cash. 

But yeah, I think it's just up to the admin to see if giving more free credits would help retention, since they are the ones who can really check. 

Xith

And you guys are how asian? :P

Trevize

Trevize changed classes (at least!) seven times, tri-transed each time, only bought credits for one of those. Didn't really grind anything, either.

Trevize

There are three choices: work hard, work smart, pay and skip working.

You don't want to do the first, I gather from the fact you don't believe that we managed it easily that you haven't done the second, and you don't want to do the third.

Your solution: handouts.

No thanks.

Slight edit: There are actually lots of times credits/artefacts/etc are given out that must be earned (games), or are just randomly given out (events like logosmas). Some are admin-run, some are player-run. Also, many orgs sell credits much cheaper than market. I'm not opposed to those. Just this "I want free stuff now." attitude I dislike.

Sherazad

Xith said:

And you guys are how asian? :P

I'm actually lazy. Also I get credits for pretending to be an azn chick IRL.

Penwize

I've spent a fair chunk of money on Achaea, but I've gained way more credits IG than I have with a credit card.  My 15k wings were largely an IG purchase, minus the accumulation of credits from the Iron Elite.  I bash a hell of a lot, and I bash smartly when I do.  I realize I'm an outlier, but 15k is also kind of an outlier number too.  Pulling those back into normal numbers, I still say it's plenty possible to get whatever you like IG.  I've already mentioned here in this thread exactly how I do it.

Nizaris

Sylvance said:

@Sarapis - would it be out of the question to create a one-time-only-per-character lesson package at a very favourable rate, based on the number of lessons needed to make up the shortfall between credits gained from levelling/newbie tasks, and the lessons needed to dual-Trans? I'm talking a package that a teenager could save up for after flipping burgers for a month.

@Sylvance: I see this as being perhaps the most sensible comment in the entire thread.

Basic Achaean economics: lessons for gold (which someone mentioned) will create a sizable and permanent gold sink, as new characters and alts are constantly created. This, in turn, will lower the price of credits, making them more accessible, and reducing the value of OOC-ly purchased credits. Bad for business; bad for IRE employees; bad for time spent developing; bad for players. No one wants this.

Extra-market direct purchases of lessons must be done via out-of-character methods. It makes excellent business sense for IRE to offer packages of lessons for the purpose of transing class skills, at a greatly discounted rate, to retain characters, for USD.

Rather than "once-per-character", however, I would recommend the following setup:

Tier One: 1738 lessons, trans one skill. Cost: $50. (~50% of 300 credit package, or some other multiplier chosen by IRE)

Tier Two: Trans two skills. Cost: $95

Tier Three: Trans three skills. Cost: $140.

Tier Four: Trans four skills (three class + survival). Cost: $185.

Per character, one may not purchase more than a total of four tiers. Thus, one could twice purchase tier two, or once tier three and once tier one, etc. From a business perspective, IRE should structure lesson tiers such that Tier Four costs less than combining their component tiers one-by-one, and same with Tiers Two and Three (some money now is better than the "promise" of more money later).

As an added benefit, make these lessons "special" in their name. They still work like lessons: they still have to be learned to be useful, but make the time that it takes to use them much shorter. Also, perhaps take the opportunity to hard code their use for only major class skills and survival (hesitant on hard coding, because some investment in class skills already means that you lose a portion of your lesson investment. Maybe allow conversion to regular lessons with an AGREE? Or scrap hard coded restriction all together.).

This suggestion would allow IRE to profit directly from lesson sales, not affect the average price of the credit market (at least, directly), and (hopefully) provide a strong incentive for players to continue playing the game. Given @Sarapis' indication that he is tracking things at several "steps" of the process, I would of course highly recommend using test markets for this, first.

Cheers!

Nizaris

Two further thoughts:

(1) I think that the above proposal would definitely benefit alt retention. I am uncertain about how it would benefit newbie player retention.

(2) True test of this system would be how well it converts its participants into Iron Elite members. I think that Iron Elite does an excellent job of converting its members into standard credit purchasers, considering the amount of time required to wait between months to build up credits substantial enough to purchase more useful artefacts. To this end, I think that once one purchases a total of four tiers, some sort of deal ought to be given on an Iron Elite membership. Perhaps a free month?

Trevize

Not a bad proposal. I'm uncertain how much it would help with new players, though. $50/$95/$140, for many, will seem like a lot for a new game you're uncertain about. Even with a free month of Iron Elite.

Still, I like it. Direct lesson sale, specifically designed to help trans class skills.

Nizaris

Trevize said:

Not a bad proposal. I'm uncertain how much it would help with new players, though. $50/$95/$140, for many, will seem like a lot for a new game you're uncertain about. Even with a free month of Iron Elite.

Still, I like it. Direct lesson sale, specifically designed to help trans class skills.

Agreed on the new players bit, hence my addendum, and for precisely the reason you mentioned. I can imagine that it will help some, of course. The question is, how much? At this point, I am inclined to think that some is better than none. It's not like IRE is taking that much of a bath on the deal. It seems to me like they would likely be gaining more money from alts, even if nothing else.

Trevize

Nizaris said:

 

I am inclined to think that some is better than none.

Agreed.

edit: I'm not opposed to making it easier for people to get started. Quite the opposite. I just dislike the notion that it is not possible with the current state of affairs!

Nim

@Nizaris: Probably not a bad idea objectively, but if I pretend I am a new player, and I pretend I'm reading into Achaea, and I pretend that they have those packages and that I've found them, I just decided to stop playing the game where a single skill (out of like, how many? I don't even know, I'm new and most skill-based games have dozens of skills!) costs $50 as a deal. That's more than I usually spend on entire games! Actually, the average game I get now is about $5 to $10, so that's about 5-10 times more!

ETA: oh no @Trevize ninja'd me because I'm really slow at foruming. I still think my point's different though, because my point is that, while it might potentially be beneficial, it might also be harmful.

ETA 2: The Return of the Editing: I should add that it's harmful because Achaea is a free game, and thus attracts a demographic of people who like free games. Telling them they have to pay up front is like, not good. You wanna be respectful and discrete about it, make them want to pay you, preferably without ever asking them to. That's likely how and why most of Achaea's current player-base supports it in the first place; I'm sure most people justify their payments with "it keeps a great game that I love alive." 

Nizaris

Nim said:

@Nizaris: Probably not a bad idea objectively, but if I pretend I am a new player, and I pretend I'm reading into Achaea, and I pretend that they have those packages and that I've found them, I just decided to stop playing the game where a single skill (out of like, how many? I don't even know, I'm new and most skill-based games have dozens of skills!) costs $50 as a deal. That's more than I usually spend on entire games! Actually, the average game I get now is about $5 to $10, so that's about 5-10 times more!

Agreed. However, I think that IRE does a pretty decent job of "hiding" the need for credits. For example, mentors are prohibited from broaching the topic, until after their protege has brought the topic up of "hey, how do I advance more quickly". Most of my true-newbie proteges actually have no idea of credits, either. So, that's testament to IRE's success, in that regard.

Then again, Achaea has always faced the problem where it really has to front load value (what I get), before discussion of cost (what I pay). Unlike buying a car, for example, where what you get and what you pay are more or less advertised at the same time, right there on the windshield. That's all freemium games, too: get them hooked, then offer them an opportunity to pay for perks.

True newbies aren't going to have any idea of what "transcending a skill" means, either. That definition should be made in-game, and once they're a bit more established.

In short, it all comes in how you sell what's available. IRE has thusfar proven themselves to be rather discrete in these matters, so I'm inclined to see what they could do with this.

Nim

@Nizaris: Achaea generally does do a good job. Their one failing, I think, is ironically probably one of their biggest successes; the membership plan, which I'm sure most of their paying customers love, and I'm sure its popularity and stability are good for IRE too. However, it is a visible "you should pay $25/mo," and I wish they sold it as a premium plan, and had a $12/mo plan added to be a "typical" in-between, even if for no other reason than marketing.

Sasiya

I guess I'm not exactly the average IRE-player, but...

I never had any problem justifying buying credits. Bashing for ten hours and earning 400,000 gold at the very top end of bashing? Spending ten hours at my work and buying ~300 credits?

Yeah, whoever posted the quote that 'wealth is time' was right on the mark.

Trevize

Sasiya said:

I guess I'm not exactly the average IRE-player, but...

I never had any problem justifying buying credits. Bashing for ten hours and earning 400,000 gold at the very top end of bashing? Spending ten hours at my work and buying ~300 credits?

Yeah, whoever posted the quote that 'wealth is time' was right on the mark.

When I first started, I was in college, working part time, and they (work) barely wanted to give me the hours I needed to pay the bills. I had no cash for games at that time.

Now? Sure, I'll toss some to Achaea. I don't feel bad about how much more I'm spending, than I would on other games, either. It's going towards a game that I've enjoyed for ten-ish years, for more hours than I've spent in almost every other game added together.

Sylvance

Trevize said:

Not a bad proposal. I'm uncertain how much it would help with new players, though. $50/$95/$140, for many, will seem like a lot for a new game you're uncertain about. Even with a free month of Iron Elite.

Still, I like it. Direct lesson sale, specifically designed to help trans class skills.

I actually agree with this comment, however the fact that it's true pisses me off.

Seriously, by the time a truebie is seriously considering OOC payments, they should have discovered that Achaea blows the ass off of any other game they've played.  They should also be aware that what they're being offered at these price points has been heavily subsidised just so that people like them can get a 'fair shot' at Achaea (in quotes because all of my previous comments about there being nothing wrong with the current system still stand). They've hopefully played for a couple of weeks already (and so know whether they like it or not), which is more than you'll get out of 9/10 videogames on the market right now, and, in all honesty, more than I've ever spent on any non-IRE MUD despite many, many forays into the internets looking for something better.

SPOILER: Not only is there nothing better, there's nothing close to as good.

Bottom Line: If they still don't think $50 is a freaking steal for what they're getting (minding the fact that they still do not need to buy it to enjoy Achaea) then nothing anybody can reasonably suggest is going to satisfy them.

Trevize

Sylvance said:

Bottom Line: If they still don't think $50 is a freaking steal for what they're getting (minding the fact that they still do not need to buy it to enjoy Achaea) then nothing anybody can reasonably suggest is going to satisfy them.

You have played for a total of 404 days, 3 hours and 13 minutes.

9699.21 hours.

Yep.


edit: almost none of that was AFK.

edit again: and that's only one character - granted, my main, but still!

Cahin

Trevize said:

Sylvance said:

Bottom Line: If they still don't think $50 is a freaking steal for what they're getting (minding the fact that they still do not need to buy it to enjoy Achaea) then nothing anybody can reasonably suggest is going to satisfy them.

You have played for a total of 404 days, 3 hours and 13 minutes.

9699.21 hours.

Yep.


edit: almost none of that was AFK.

edit again: and that's only one character - granted, my main, but still!

Achilles

Sherazad said:

Xith said:

And you guys are how asian? :P

I'm actually lazy. Also I get credits for pretending to be an azn chick IRL.

Whhhhaaaattt?

Ok, all good now

Garao

Sylvance said:

Trevize said:

Not a bad proposal. I'm uncertain how much it would help with new players, though. $50/$95/$140, for many, will seem like a lot for a new game you're uncertain about. Even with a free month of Iron Elite.

Still, I like it. Direct lesson sale, specifically designed to help trans class skills.

I actually agree with this comment, however the fact that it's true pisses me off.

Seriously, by the time a truebie is seriously considering OOC payments, they should have discovered that Achaea blows the ass off of any other game they've played.  They should also be aware that what they're being offered at these price points has been heavily subsidised just so that people like them can get a 'fair shot' at Achaea (in quotes because all of my previous comments about there being nothing wrong with the current system still stand). They've hopefully played for a couple of weeks already (and so know whether they like it or not), which is more than you'll get out of 9/10 videogames on the market right now, and, in all honesty, more than I've ever spent on any non-IRE MUD despite many, many forays into the internets looking for something better.

SPOILER: Not only is there nothing better, there's nothing close to as good.

Bottom Line: If they still don't think $50 is a freaking steal for what they're getting (minding the fact that they still do not need to buy it to enjoy Achaea) then nothing anybody can reasonably suggest is going to satisfy them.

This is a ridiculous statement. If someone isn't able to pay $50 - $100 dollars into a game then nothing is going to satisfy them? All you and others are trying to do at this point is put a price tag on what is reasonable to pay to get into the game. 

Nothing.

Payments into achaea come -after- you've become attached to the game, not to attain your initial bloody skills to function! This game is free-to-play, with payments on top coming after you feel like it's worth it. How can your average novice reach that level when there are people like you seriously suggesting it's reasonable for someone to pay $100 to purchase two transcendent skills, and class skills, at that. The whole 'Does no one liking achieving things anymore ' is a cop-out too. More like 'Does no one like achieving things anymore? Unless you are able to throw some serious bucks into a game to gain your initial skills! Come on, guys. No one is detracting from your accomplishments of being able to transcend a bunch of things off purely in-game methods, but that's not the problem. Whether you or anyone else who has played Achaea for years can transcend however many skills is seriously irrelevant, because it's not about us. It's about newbie retention, getting them to a point where they feel comfortable enough with the game to eventually spend money on it. 

No, $100 dollars to get 2 of your 3 class skills, out of a possible 10 major skills and another 9 miniskills, is not going to help newbie retention anymore than them just straight up buying the iron elite membership. Which is a real-world example of what is not helping Achaea keep its newbies playing the game. Making things cost mass amounts of money is not the solution here, but blatantly the problem. 

I am not saying that it's impossible to achieve these things in-game, I've said the exact opposite of that. It's just that it's too much to expect of your average potential playerbase, and exactly why achaea has such a small one. I have absolutely zero doubt that myself and several others would become much more invested in the game if transcending class skills were just that bit simpler to do, at least the first one or two, and then continuing on to buy many things from Achaea when I have the capacity to do so. Like I said, it's just sad that I even have to think this for a game that sells itself as free-to-play.

Again, is there really such an issue with making a class's two primary skills lesson's cost smaller, and then making that a TASK to complete? After completion (transceneding the two primary class skills), quitting class will not allow the lesson cost to remain smaller, and all class skills will return to being 1736 lessons to transcend. I, for one, know several people who would be more attracted to playing Achaea of whom were initially turned away when I told them the time and/or money investment, that may eventually spend money. I'm sure that's the case for many players who found the game and stopped playing after a week for finding out the same thing. 

Thanks for reading if you made it this far, heh.

Sylvance

Heh, I love your passion, but once again you do not need Tri-Trans to enjoy Achaea. The game was awesome long before I started making OOC purchases.  The basic premise of the 'Waah, it's not free' camp seems to be that you have to pay money to play/enjoy/'win' Achaea. This is a premise that is entirely unfounded, frustratingly resilient to reasoning, and, as has been pointed out by other people, jaw-droppingly filled with entitlement.

Why is it that newbies feel that they have to spend money on Achaea in order to enjoy it?  Is it because they're being taught that it's a PvP combat game? My experience of playing alts is that every single House, including the most militant, starts right away by immersing its novices in RP.

Is it because so many other people have spent money on the game that the floor's too high? If yes, then what are we going to say?: "Well too many other people have spent cash on this game, so we'll give you what they paid for for free so you don't feel left out?"

Is it that people are confusing 'Free-to-Play' with 'Free-to-access-everything'? If so, then damn, let's rename the entire FTP market.

Garao

Free-to-access-everything/Winning Achaea/Self-entitlement != Two trans class skills, it's not a lot to ask from a MUD that claims to be free-to-play.

Again, people do not play this game for the same reason. Yes, you don't feel it's necessary to have some of your class skills to play Achaea, but this does not mean it holds true for plenty of the potential and existing population of Achaea. Nor has anyone asked for class skills to be awarded to the player immediately. Stop making points up out of thin air. 

Nyboe

Sylvance said:

Heh, I love your passion, but once again you do not need Tri-Trans to enjoy Achaea. The game was awesome long before I started making OOC purchases.  The basic premise of the 'Waah, it's not free' camp seems to be that you have to pay money to play/enjoy/'win' Achaea. This is a premise that is entirely unfounded, frustratingly resilient to reasoning, and, as has been pointed out by other people, jaw-droppingly filled with entitlement.

Why is it that newbies feel that they have to spend money on Achaea in order to enjoy it?  Is it because they're being taught that it's a PvP combat game? My experience of playing alts is that every single House, including the most militant, starts right away by immersing its novices in RP.

Is it because so many other people have spent money on the game that the floor's too high? If yes, then what are we going to say?: "Well too many other people have spent cash on this game, so we'll give you what they paid for for free so you don't feel left out?"

Is it that people are confusing 'Free-to-Play' with 'Free-to-access-everything'? If so, then damn, let's rename the entire FTP market.

Achaea's greatest feature in the game is its pvp mechanics. So all players should have the right to enjoy the pvp without having to pay.

And players can't really enjoy pvp fully if they can't even trans one skill.

Players who spent real money still can benefit from buying artefacts. Thats the whole point of artefacts is to give payers a huge advantage. There should be no need to even make the game pay to progress skills after you reach level 70 or bash for gold to buy credits till you you go blind staring at the computer screen.

Really. What non payer finds this enticing?

Aliath

Only ever bought a globe myself with ooc means, but is still omni trans (not counting crafting skills), I suppose I could have purchased credits, I do have the means, just to me it is more fun accomplishing things in game, which is doable, sure it takes a bit longer, is still fun enough though, besides I would rate interacting with other people over pvp any day.

Melodie

Nyboe said:

Achaea's greatest feature in the game is its pvp mechanics.

I think you will find many in Achaea who disagree with this opinion, so the rest of your post that is built on this foundation has a few cracks, I'm afraid.

Nyboe

Melodie said:

Achaea's greatest feature in the game is its pvp mechanics.

I think you will find many in Achaea who disagree with this opinion, so the rest of your post that is built on this foundation has a few cracks, I'm afraid.

Okay then so what is better then the pvp? Fishing? Ratting? Hunting? Typing an essay about respect for the house? Trying to run for a political position? Trying to win an artistic contest or bard contest? Roleplaying?

People do all of those activities so they can get credits or some form of power. Nobody is just going to waste their dilly dallying doing mindless things for no reward. People fish for gold to buy credits. They hunt so they can reach level 100 to bash for better gold as dragon to eventually buy credits. People entering the artstic contest and bard contest so they can win credits. People use these credits for pvp reasons to get artefacts and tri trans.

The only people who don't do activities for some sort of credit/lesson reward are people who either trans all their skills or close to max trans.

Really. Go read the Achaea reviews. All of them give praise to Achaea's pvp mechanics.

If the pvp aspect of Achaea isn't the main core aspect, then why are so many players who still play today have such high amounts of their credits invested in artefacts and lessons?

Obviously pvp is the main source of income for this game. Since when have you heard people buying credits so they can roleplay or obtain house positions? So its clear to see that many people will pay money for transing skills and aretefacts so thus pvp is the most important thing in the game because majority of Achaea's remaining game population are willing to pay money for it. There is no other activity in the game people will pay money for.

I believe the game could be a lot better if lessons weren't so difficult to get. The developers and admins can still make money from artefacts, and the new player base would be a lot bigger and this would cause the game to grow. Its a short term loss for a long term gain.

Sylvance

I don't think I've ever before hoped that something I read was a troll post as hard as I just did. Where to even start?

ETA: The best thing that can be said about that post, @Nyboe, is that it was egocentric.