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No more credits?

NyboeNyboe
edited March 2013 in North of Thera
I read somewhere at level 65 you don't get the 10 credits for leveling. Also I read after level 70 you also don't get credits anymore from leveling. So after we reach this point in the game becomes either pay to progress your skills or live in a basement bashing/ratting/questing for gold at 6-7k an hour.

The greatest thing about the game is its deep pvp mechanics and Achaea won't even allow me to enjoy that after a certain point unless I pay real money. Why make it so hard to gain lessons? I read some where that Achaea makes plenty of money. And they can still always make money off the artefacts. So why can't everyone just get more lessons so they could at least trans one skill when they reach level 70.

And everyone I ask has been brainwashed to answer "This business model has been like this for many years"
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Comments

  • KyrraKyrra Australia
    There are alternative ways to get lessons and credits.

    For example, house and city credit sales if you're a member and eligible.

    Get involved in city run events and competitions. They usually have credit prizes and sometimes rewards just for participating.

    Check out LOTTERIES every once in a while and test your luck with a ticket.

    If you're good with designing, offer to do commissions.

    To a degree, Achaea does push people to invest. There are awesome artifacts, great monthly promotions, and the occasional auction mostly aimed at generating revenue for the company which keeps Achaea free to play for everyone. It's not mandatory but most will eventually buy credits. They also have fantastic lesson sales for monthly promotions every so often.

    Some people get by in game with hunting or questing to get gold. Always ask on Market if people will sell to you below market price as well. If they know you aren't reselling, a lot of people are pretty nice about selling for less.
    (D.M.A.): Cooper says, "Kyrra is either the most innocent person in the world, or the girl who uses the most innuendo seemingly unintentionally but really on purpose."

  • XithXith
    You know.... one skill shouldn't be too much to ask.



         170

    5 lessons with 70 levels 350

    30 for 5 credits at 4 levels 120

    60 for 10 credits at 8 levels 480

    1120



    You can get about 65% of one skillset by "natural" means. And another 150 lessons if you go from there to Dragon. But I doubt many classes can naturally hunt to dragon without a single trans skillset, let alone arties being purchased.

    I don't think  70 is the right level to give everybody their lessons, but another lump of bound credits every 5 levels couldn't hurt.

    I like my steak like I like my Magic cards: mythic rare.
  • DartegaDartega
    I would like to echo this sentiment in the fact that I have gotten 5 or 6 people to start Achaea with personal stories of combat/theft/etc, just to go oh.... well you can't really do any of that because you don't have any skills. This resulted in them losing interest fairly quickly.
    Obviously business is business, but being able to reach a "useful" state more easily might help with retention of new players, as it opens up many avenues. 
  • SylvanceSylvance
    I could roll with Trans Survival being earned in-game (outside of the existing mechanics for earning credits through play). Perhaps going up with Explorer Rank or such. Anything else..? Not so much.
    Tvistor: If that was a troll, it was masterful.
    I take my hat off to you.
  • NimNim

    Explorer rank prizes would be cool. It'd probably have to be based on the highest rank you've ever achieved, since your rank can apparently go down, but it would definitely be cool.

    You could argue that things like exploring shouldn't need to be rewarded (I've heard this argument used in the past, anyway!), but anything that creates a variety of options for new players to advance reduces the game's initial grind, and anything that does that is a good thing in my opinion!

    Or, in shorter terms: grind is evil, kill it

  • ArlandaArlanda
    Well if you are in a house or city there are always chances to win some credits. Otherwise try for worldwide events like greathunt or weekranks when they come up. I won 4th place on a questing weekrank when I was not even logosian yet so it isnt a pure dragon playing field.
  • NimNim
    edited March 2013

    I'd almost agree with @Delphinus, if not for how weird it would be to walk into a random room, and some magical agency that apparently tracks every single adventurer's explorations of the realm suddenly sends you a letter saying, "Congratulations! You've won a prize!"

    Immersion is cool, but I can't see an actual physical event happening as anything other than immersion-breaking. Some introspective message about how you've learned more about the world through your explorations would be cool though.

    ETA: Just to make it even cooler for people who like finding new things, the message could even be different at every rank, and increasingly special or awesome feeling.

  • KazuKazu
    Delphinus said:
    I could get behind an exploring reward if it's more immersive than "ding gratz you win credits." Maybe a falcon drops a membership card into your hands, and you show it to some roaming Achaean Ranger for a reward. Or maybe there's some kind of magic house-elf, because falcons have trouble in hydrothermal vents and the moon and whatever crazy places people explore. Or something.
    image

  • DelphinusDelphinus
    edited March 2013
    @Nim: In all seriousness, sure, that's reasonable. Would still make it interesting if you had to go claim your reward, though, golden ticket or otherwise.

    @Nyboe: I'm unsure if it's been brought up, but check out HELP HISTORY QUEST.
    Achaea world map -- updated regularly
  • SylvanceSylvance
    edited March 2013
    Make it so that you have to go to their offices in Delos?, show the retired explorer behind the counter your maps, and listen to his increasingly tall stories about his own travels. Then when he's done spinning a yarn he gives you your credit prize and new explorer rank. This could replace the existing ding mechanic. Just to be clear, this is me bouncing off the OP. I cannot see a single problem with the current system of having to pay a relatively small amount of cash in order to personalise my Achaea experience.
    Tvistor: If that was a troll, it was masterful.
    I take my hat off to you.
  • ArlandaArlanda
    Well, I spent some money on Arlanda but for my earlier characters I did not spend a single cent but still managed to trans skills. I think of it this way, combine questing and hunting. If you only hunt to gain experience, your initial level gain is fast but you lose out in gold which means your skill growth is slow and future growth is slower. If you only quest you get a lot of gold, skill growth is fast but level gain is slow which means you can't attempt stronger quests or denizens. Strike a balance and you are on your way!
  • NakariNakari
    Sylvance said:
    Make it so that you have to go to their offices in Delos?, show the retired explorer behind the counter your maps, and listen to his increasingly tall stories about his own travels. Then when he's done spinning a yarn he gives you your credit prize and new explorer rank. This could replace the existing ding mechanic. Just to be clear, this is me bouncing off the OP. I cannot see a single problem with the current system of having to pay a relatively small amount of cash in order to personalise my Achaea experience.
    because 'personalized' should probably not mean 'actually able to use my skills.'

    I'm past the point myself, but I really do think that class skills should be more accessible. It is amazingly frustrating to see the list of all the cool things you will be able to do after you get a bunch more lessons after they stop coming as fast, or not at all. While there are certainly in game ways of making it, those are much more available to people who already know their way around the game then those who are paling through their class for the first time, and it makes that bar between casual playing and a more expensive hobby that much higher when spending rl money is the only way in which you know how to progress.

  • SylvanceSylvance
    edited March 2013
    That's madness. Perhaps I'm saying it from the point-of-view of an RPer, for whom 'skills' is actually a surprisingly small part of the game.  What I can tell you is that the feeling of reaching tri-Trans, having worked my ass off to earn it between bashing (and this was on Nexus, with just aliases, I'll add), questing and writing Bardics, was a feeling of amazing achievement.  I don't think we do anyone any favours by diminishing the feeling of having worked really hard for something.


    Nakari said:
    Sylvance said:
    Make it so that you have to go to their offices in Delos?, show the retired explorer behind the counter your maps, and listen to his increasingly tall stories about his own travels. Then when he's done spinning a yarn he gives you your credit prize and new explorer rank. This could replace the existing ding mechanic. Just to be clear, this is me bouncing off the OP. I cannot see a single problem with the current system of having to pay a relatively small amount of cash in order to personalise my Achaea experience.
    because 'personalized' should probably not mean 'actually able to use my skills.'

    I'm past the point myself, but I really do think that class skills should be more accessible. It is amazingly frustrating to see the list of all the cool things you will be able to do after you get a bunch more lessons after they stop coming as fast, or not at all. While there are certainly in game ways of making it, those are much more available to people who already know their way around the game then those who are paling through their class for the first time, and it makes that bar between casual playing and a more expensive hobby that much higher when spending rl money is the only way in which you know how to progress.
    Let's not turn this into a fight between two straw men. That would not be productive.  You do not need to buy credits to do any of those things. Credits literally never reach the point where they are coming 'not at all' if you actually play the game. If you think the newbies in your House are getting a raw deal, then find ways to give them more credits.

    ETA: For clarity, by 'newbies' I mean new players at lv70+ but still not long-in-the-tooth
    Tvistor: If that was a troll, it was masterful.
    I take my hat off to you.
  • SenaSena
    Nyboe said:
    So after we reach this point in the game becomes either pay to progress your skills or live in a basement bashing/ratting/questing for gold at 6-7k an hour.
    You can get far more than 6-7k an hour. Casual questing can get you 20-25k gold per hour, serious questing can get you more than 40k in an hour if you don't have much competition for the quests. High level bashing also gives a lot of gold.
    Blujixapug said:
    By the time you reach level 70, due to the increasingly steep curve of exp required to level, it starts to become easier to acquire gold from hunting/questing and buy credits from the credit market, city sales, or House sales than it does to level up.
    This is also a good point. It's true that the free bound credits stop at level 70 (for a total of 100), but you're actually getting more credits per level after 70 even without the automatic rewards, and the credits/level ratio continues to rise pretty quickly.

    People have earned thousands of credits in the game, without "living in a basement" and grinding 24/7.
  • NakariNakari
    @Sylvance the only disadvantage you have listed has been that doing this might "diminish the feeling of having worked really hard for something." Placing people in a situation where they have to spend money from out of game is not going to make that feeling any stronger. Really, I suspect if it was more possible to earn tritrans without resorting to credits, and I mean that in the sense of a person who might not know the most profitable questing areas or hunting grounds, then you would see more people who end up working their asses off for an in-game achievement rather then using what they've earned from the real world (and I'm not knocking those who do spend money, if that wasn't clear. I did, and it keeps the game going. I just don't think it should be as necessary for getting class skills)

    And I am in no ways making a straw man argument. I didn't disagree with the majority of your post (new explorers ranking stuff would be cool), but I did take issue with the last line of it. If I misconstrued your claims in some way, then I apologize, and do please correct me.

  • SylvanceSylvance
    edited March 2013
    Nakari said:
    @Sylvance the only disadvantage you have listed has been that doing this might "diminish the feeling of having worked really hard for something." Placing people in a situation where they have to spend money from out of game is not going to make that feeling any stronger. Really, I suspect if it was more possible to earn tritrans without resorting to credits, and I mean that in the sense of a person who might not know the most profitable questing areas or hunting grounds, then you would see more people who end up working their asses off for an in-game achievement rather then using what they've earned from the real world (and I'm not knocking those who do spend money, if that wasn't clear. I did, and it keeps the game going. I just don't think it should be as necessary for getting class skills)

    And I am in no ways making a straw man argument. I didn't disagree with the majority of your post (new explorers ranking stuff would be cool), but I did take issue with the last line of it. If I misconstrued your claims in some way, then I apologize, and do please correct me.
    I'll say it again, because I'm obviously not expressing myself clearly enough. The bolded never happens in Achaea.

    In terms of the strawman comments, what I mean is that I'm not arguing that you should have to pay 'real money' to make your skills useful. I just can't think of a single situation when that might happen. Is this a problem for people, because it's not one I've ever come across.

    ETA: If the problem is that we have a legion of newbies that feel that they need to be tri-trans right now in order to enjoy Achaea, then that's a very different problem than the flow of credits.
    Tvistor: If that was a troll, it was masterful.
    I take my hat off to you.
  • DraukaDrauka
    edited March 2013
    IRE pioneered this business model. Achaea is free to play, but it's also a business. Credit sales fund the people behind the scenes working on everything.

    Sure, I'll take some credits or lessons for free, but I also don't mind paying for credits that help pay for the IRE expenses to run Achaea, likely labor costs being the top expense of the business.

    I do tend to wait for credit sales to buy credits though. Why pay full price? Being a subscriber is a good deal too!

    $24.99/month Iron Elite Membership    $24.99Member Benefits:
    • Earn 5 Lessons per Day per Character when you login. This will benefit any character registered to the same email address.
    • Your account will receive 100 Bound Credits per month for distribution across any characters registered to the same email address.
    • 5 Additional Bound Credits for every month you remain on the membership. This cumulative bonus will top out at an additional 50 credits per month.
    • Receive a 10% Bonus on ALL Credit Purchases for any character registered to the same email. This bonus will stack with any other credit promotions we are running.
    • Earn a 5% cumulative XP Bonus every month. This bonus will top out after five months for a 25%. This bonus will stack with any additional experience gains.

  • DraukaDrauka
    I do agree that you kinda need credits to get any good set of skills to get all those lessons.
  • SenaSena
    edited March 2013
    @Daeir With less than 2 hours per RL day (which is admittedly still a lot more time than some people have), you can be tri-trans in around 2 months. Faster if you have access to house/city credit sales or there's a promotion going that gives lessons/credits. That is a long time compared to most games, but it doesn't seem "prohibitively difficult" to me.
  • SylvanceSylvance
    edited March 2013
    Daeir said:

    124 hours to tri-trans a character solely off bought credits (probably more like 100 factoring in leveling lessons and bound credits) is an inordinate length of time to be spent holding down the bashing macro key and dropping selfishness to sell items and corpses.

    Far, far too long. They may not have been living in a basement, but they've probably been playing the game for a number of years. Some people enjoy that - that's fine.

    It's always been prohibitively difficult to obtain lessons without spending money. That is IRE's entire business model - and a very underhanded one at that. No other game would get away with actively withholding more than half of a class' active skills without being slammed for it, but apparently that is okay to do in a MUD because lolrp. I am bitter, I admit it. I have spent an inordinate amount of money just on credits for lessons because the time cost to obtain them otherwise is so unbelievably high when compared to other online games. I really don't know how Achaea gets away with it, to be honest.
    To the bolded - I just couldn't disagree with this more.  Honestly.  First up, I just cannot be the only person that doesn't see a problem with having to bash/quest for 124 hours (assuming your figures are correct, which I haven't checked) to get to Tri-Trans. I 'bashed' for longer than that to kill Ultima Weapon and the Dark Aeons in a couple of games that weren't as good as Achaea. So what? 

    To the italicised - this is where my WTF kicks in. What's 'underhanded' about it? No other game would get away with what?  I pay £40 for a videogame that lasts anywhere between 8 (median), 20 (mean?) and 40 (max - excluding end-content or the few Skyrimesque games) and don't think anything of it. But being asked to pay a few hundred pounds for tri-trans if I want it right now, to increase my enjoyment in a game that could literally last me a decade if I want to pay it rather than work for it is underhanded? Come on, man. Just come on.
    Tvistor: If that was a troll, it was masterful.
    I take my hat off to you.
  • AepasAepas
    I would like to see a few more ways to win credits. Even from the small things like egg hunts and the like. maybe just 5-10 credits here and there, especially when things are geared towards lower level characters.

    I don't personally find the lesson swing to be too bad, but I really would like to see lessons bumped to 10 per level, at least up until level 70. Not a huge increase, but it adds about an extra 350 lessons for new characters. That's a little over 50cr worth, but I think it would make a huge impact on many.

    Really though, I don't think a lot of things needed to be changed for the accessibility of your skills and stats. Perhaps it is because I grew up in an older time where the high tier combatants were the ones with focus, mid/high was tritrans, and everyone else was just the normal single/dual trans people. I remember all the work and love I used to put in, working my bum off to earn at the least, 1 credit a day. On a good day it was 3, and on a weekend it was 5.

    I believe in the patience and effort to level up your character, and no I don't really believe that it's right to have to spend money for a tri-trans set. Still, plenty of people in the day made due with a few of their skills missing and people can still do that, we're just instead taught that you NEED the quad trans to fight these days. IT sure helps, but it's not needed. If I recall, Aleyki was one of the best Dual trans fighters out there. It's possible, so just go for it and always do what you can with what you have.

    Replies the scorpion: "It's my nature..."
  • DraukaDrauka
    I do wish I could convert my language lessons into real lessons: You have 681 learning sessions for further language study.
  • PenwizePenwize
    Sena said:
    @Daeir With less than 2 hours per RL day (which is admittedly still a lot more time than some people have), you can be tri-trans in around 2 months. Faster if you have access to house/city credit sales or there's a promotion going that gives lessons/credits. That is a long time compared to most games, but it doesn't seem "prohibitively difficult" to me.
    I'm actually not sure that's so long compared to most games.  To those of you who have played MMOs (WoW, EQ, etc), how long did your first max level character take you, if you were only able to play a few hours a day?  Tri-transing is sort of like getting max level, since you finally have access to all of your class abilities then (like hitting max level in an MMO!).  Could it be made quicker? Sure, but if you compare it fairly to levelling systems of other games, it's pretty comparable. 

    Also, don't forget that Achaea has the bonus lessons on binding credits for the first ... what is it, 1000?  I don't remember, but it's a fair bonus to get people started when they convert credits.  Getting those credits IG might seem insurmountable when you're making 6k/hour, but 6k/hour is really low even for a lowbie.  Ask your house or city to help you learn how to make more!
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