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City novicehood

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  • AnaidianaAnaidiana Member Posts: 832 @ - Epic Achaean
    If cities are going to take over the task of training novices, it would be logical that there is a CNT (city newcomer tells) channel which can be turned off by those who just want newbies to go live underground for 17 years (ala cicadas) until they have their heads on straight. Ambassadors could then have a city-owned clan with scrolls on all the classes for them and their aides and organisation purposes. 

    This has potential. 


    image
    SylvanceBoosteya
  • KadenKaden Member Posts: 459 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    I like it. Especially since removing the burden of teaching novice means that Houses could be free to further develop their RP instead of burning all their energy just perpetuating a looped system where building a novice up to HR 5 is their only reason for being.
    BlujixapugCorbeauxJurixeSylvance
  • RuthRuth SingaporeMember Posts: 2,700 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Combine both Imperian's NPC guild tasks for induction into the house and Lusternia's academy system and I think it would be nifty.
    "Mummy, I'm hungry, but there's no one to eat! :C"

     

    BlujixapugYilkonDrauka
  • LalaLala Member Posts: 277 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    I like it. Reminds me of Lusternia's collegium system which I really love.
  • KakotasKakotas Member Posts: 264 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I've rotated around the clock as it were a number of times. The "actives" at non North American times I usually find to be less so or might end up being a random leader who is just logging in to get work done. In this regard I guess cities would be slightly helpful. But I feel similar with @draekar that this misses the point of RP arcs that are important to character development so we don't end up as just a lol I pwned you game like WOW or LOL or well fill in the blank. I think it's more of a there needs to be a way of sharing leadership at off hours (Templars had a lead novice aides program that did this at one point during height of autoclass and worked fairly well but required a good deal of effort to upkeep) without taking it away from the ideal leaders (ie a person that matches that novices class and RP ideals). This way the novice can advance whenever but still has access to what they need RP wise. I think the solution is a bit more complicated than just saying ok now cities train novices because cities it's going to be the same people doing so only this time there will really be no RP ties to this person and the novice which I think weakens the relationship somewhat and doesn't bode well for the, finding a decent mentor that knows their class and how to help that newbie develop if that makes sense?
    (Blades of Valour): He just has that Synbios Swagger enough said.
    (Blades of Valour): Draekar says: "Synbios if sunbeams sparkle off that I'll kill you where you stand."

    (Party) Halos says, "Disbar?"
    (Party) Draekar says, "You know here we have disbar."
    (Party) Draekar says, "And over there we have datbar."
  • SynbiosSynbios Member Posts: 4,614 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Before Shallam went the way of Atlantis, I'd probably have been somewhat maybe perhaps could be probably opposed to the idea, since Houses have had many many gruelingly frustrating years of ingrained House culture, and trying to bring them together would be the equivalent of dropping boatloads of invisible soap in the prison showers. 

    Now, with NeoShallam v.2.012b patch tar_1.34.zip, I'm actually warm to the idea now. Considering that, if you look at the most basic of House tasks, most of the class-independent 'basics' - messages, geography, getting around the city, that sort of thing - are pretty much the same between Houses. And assuming that Targossas will do away with the old Guild/House system that forced classes into specific Houses, city membership would ideally be seen as a gateway to the novices, where they are given basic training and instruction into the unifying ideals of the City and its Houses. 

    Once they have learned the basics of 'how do I axk rat' and 'what is 'Good', and why is it better than 'deep intimate physical relations with a person of the desired gender'?', then they can start focusing on joining a House which caters to certain specific path.

     To give a real-life example here: in our university, we have a College of Computer Studies, which is a catch-all term for all things computer-sciency. Once students have passed their freshman years, which all contain the same subject and course matter between Computer Studies freshmen, they can then select a specialization - ie. Information Technology(IT), Software Technology(ST), Computer Systems Engineering(CSE), Instructional Systems Technology(IST), and so on. That sort of structure is what I'd imagine for the City-House-Novice relations.

    EchaldBoosteya
  • KyrraKyrra AustraliaMember Posts: 4,853 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Any alt I make, generally the first 10 or so tells received from various people are the known mudsex alt people. It's actually quite sad, not to mention the folks that just turn up and follow you around while you're trying to catch butterflies.

    Actually, there was this one time and @Vayne was first, and he gave a really great speech on why Serpentlords was a worthy House for my little serpent. Then the creeper tells started :(
    (D.M.A.): Cooper says, "Kyrra is either the most innocent person in the world, or the girl who uses the most innuendo seemingly unintentionally but really on purpose."

    SherazadSylvance
  • KyrraKyrra AustraliaMember Posts: 4,853 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Haha. It's alright.
    (D.M.A.): Cooper says, "Kyrra is either the most innocent person in the world, or the girl who uses the most innuendo seemingly unintentionally but really on purpose."

  • FavoniusFavonius Member Posts: 77 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    My initial reaction was 'ugh', but then I realised @Sarapis is probably right. It will suck for the Houses that are already great at novice introduction (Occultists, Sylvans, Sentinels in my limited experience) but be invaluable to those that are just too small or too disorganised.

    I do like the idea of every city having an Academy or Lyceum or something, complete with factional newbie tasks: letting cities name them and give them some unique flavour could be fun. Maybe they can choose a House and class as part of that process.

    Teaching and equipping every class will be a pain, but then again... in the Sylvans we could never send them to a forger for armour and weapons but had to stockpile then instead. I'm sure the Sents have the same problem with enchantments. So maybe it'll work out.

    Some class-based teaching will still have to be done in House, like how to use Crystallism and Enchanting (Magi), Milking (Serpent) and Suicidemice (Jester) - unless you plan to move those things out of Househalls.

    Also, don't forget about the CIJ!

    Oh and @Mishgul Sylvan with a bow is a fun raid-class ;)
  • HoratioHoratio Member Posts: 87 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Anything that takes the onus off of Houses is A+ in my book, but I admit to being biased as I've always been a House > City player.

    I've always believed that everybody should, to one extent or another, be helpful to the new players. But it's to the point where your own progression in some houses can be stunted by not actively and overtly participating on HNT, conducting long orientations and classes whenever you're around, even if you aren't a novice aide. This really takes away from the potential Houses have as meaningful organizations.
    Sylvance
  • HataruHataru Midwest USAMember Posts: 508 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    I think my biggest problem in this (that hasn't been mentioned thus far from my own reading, though I did mostly just glance over the last page of posts not really read) is that this favours TRUE newbies so much over returning players/people who are playing alts/want to start a new character for other reasons.

    Auto-class didn't marginalizing returning players in that way, where as I think this will completely marginalize players who already know how to play and really want to just start a new 'path' or new character for whatever their personal reasons would. Actually auto-class and houses in general were really, really friendly to these types of players since they already knew about the game, guilds/houses, classes, cities and all that beginning stuff.

    I know if this had been implemented when I made my alt it would have really, really discouraged me from playing her and she ended up being almost as ranked as Hataru (who I've played for 10 years now) city/house wise and a higher level than her. I would have felt really bored and put aside by not being able to get right back into the thick of things and having to redo super novicey stuff I'd done on other failed alts and had lead so many true newbies through on Hat.

    This could be easily fixable though by way of the fact that there could be some coded system to see if your e-mail has a character already registered to it above the level of (lets say) 50 and with more than a minimum hours (lets say 25) played that allows you to by-pass this city-only novicehood idea and get straight into houses as well. Or some other better thought out way that I'm not thinking up on the fly as a simple example that my only problem could probably be easily dealt with.
    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): Melodie says, "Get rekt scrubbbbb."
    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): You say, "Scrubbbssss."
    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): Trey says, "Austere was hangin' out the passenger side of his best friend's ride, apparently."
  • MorroMorro Member Posts: 93 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    The purpose of the system as I understand it seems to be to teach true newbs how to do various things that you'd have to do anyway to get a character set up, like collective curatives and equipment, while also giving them some sense for the faction they are in. Experienced players will know how to do these things already, so it likely won't make much of a difference for them.
  • HataruHataru Midwest USAMember Posts: 508 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    @Eld that assume that all of the houses would get rid of their really basic novice-style requirements. As someone who has a fair bit of an experience with being a HoN (held it 5 times between two characters for an expansive amount of IC years) no one would sensibly just drop all of their 'novice' requirements. All of the basic geography, all of the making sure your incoming people had basic curatives and vials and such, knowing your 'background' as a character, having a description, all of these things would still have to exist.

    Unless the system was made to be tested by actual people the 'novice' level of testing would still exist. Other wise whose to say someone who passed a city novice test actually had the right vials or knew how to use them (without a system) or had an acceptable background or character description.

    These novicey types of things that take actual testing would still have to exist and couldn't "just be blown through" by an alt. That sort of stuff can only be quantified by level, doing basic quests, things that can be auto-tested by completion like the current system, not by a real person, to provide any real difference in time.

    Not everything is quantitative, some things that are tested at the novice level are qualitative - those are the things that would stop alts or require repetition with houses, and where repetition starts to be required, I  start to see flaws.

    My point is, a novice level of sorts would still have to exist in most houses (I'd say all but I don't know enough about all houses to do so) because the qualitative levels of novicehood can't be breezed through. So all we're talking about here is repetition and the fact that people will have to go through some level of super basic stuff twice.
    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): Melodie says, "Get rekt scrubbbbb."
    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): You say, "Scrubbbssss."
    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): Trey says, "Austere was hangin' out the passenger side of his best friend's ride, apparently."
  • EldEld Member Posts: 3,946 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited April 2013

    Hataru said:
    @Eld that assume that all of the houses would get rid of their really basic novice-style requirements. As someone who has a fair bit of an experience with being a HoN (held it 5 times between two characters for an expansive amount of IC years) no one would sensibly just drop all of their 'novice' requirements. All of the basic geography, all of the making sure your incoming people had basic curatives and vials and such, knowing your 'background' as a character, having a description, all of these things would still have to exist.

    Unless the system was made to be tested by actual people the 'novice' level of testing would still exist. Other wise whose to say someone who passed a city novice test actually had the right vials or knew how to use them (without a system) or had an acceptable background or character description.

    These novicey types of things that take actual testing would still have to exist and couldn't "just be blown through" by an alt. That sort of stuff can only be quantified by level, doing basic quests, things that can be auto-tested by completion like the current system, not by a real person, to provide any real difference in time.

    Not everything is quantitative, some things that are tested at the novice level are qualitative - those are the things that would stop alts or require repetition with houses, and where repetition starts to be required, I  start to see flaws.

    My point is, a novice level of sorts would still have to exist in most houses (I'd say all but I don't know enough about all houses to do so) because the qualitative levels of novicehood can't be breezed through. So all we're talking about here is repetition and the fact that people will have to go through some level of super basic stuff twice.
    No one's proposing a system in which people have to go through the basic gameplay stuff twice. The idea here would be to move that stuff that everyone needs to know (or maybe that everyone within a given city needs to know) from the Houses to the Cities. Sure, houses are still going to want to have introductory tasks to orient people to that specific house's philosophy, position in the city, etc, but that's the kind of stuff that experienced players haven't done before (excepting people with multiple characters in the same house), and if that puts you off of starting an alt, then you probably don't want to be starting an alt. The basic "how does this game work?" stuff would, in this scenario, be pushed from the houses to the cities; at worst, it would be the same amount of hassle for an alt, and at best it could be considerably less.

    Basically, yes, the basic testing of novices to check that they have the right curatives, acceptable descriptions, etc, would have to happen somewhere. The idea here is just to move the parts that are shared between houses to the cities where more people can pool resources in figuring out how best to teach and test them, people are less likely to fall through the cracks if they join a house with a small playerbase at their play time, and so on.

    SherazadMorro
  • LithorinLithorin Member Posts: 29
    I think the problem with cities in general is that everyone is so focused on their individual houses. The houses are what give a sense of unity, community and purpose to the people. Currently the houses are responsible for the education of novices and the introduction to their skills. The natural result of this is that novices will feel more loyalty to their house than they ever will their city.

    The problem with having people join a house after the creation process and after the get to know their city some is that of having to appoint someone to know everything about the basics of every class so they can teach these novices.

    The only solution i can come up with is to have custom creation for each class. have them choose a class at the begining of the creation process and have their introduction be specific to the basics they will need for that class. Once that has happened then the city can focus on teaching novices about their city instead of their classes. The houses will then be able to focus on more advanced stuff instead of spending huge amounts of time teaching young people over and over and over again
  • KalvonKalvon Member Posts: 100 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    One possible way I could see this work is if the unclassed novice wasn't at such a great disadvantage. Then we could force the novice to choose a city but not a class until they were more experienced.

    My idea would be to

    1) Have a generic class: "Adventurer" that has a few basic defenses and skills to hunt with
    2) Mandate city selection during the novice trial
    3) Limit class selection until the novice is sufficiently experienced

    It would introduce the element of competition from all the various Houses to garner interest in their own organisations from the novices.
    KyriellaAchimrst
  • AchimrstAchimrst NatureMember Posts: 3,608 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Kalvon said:
    One possible way I could see this work is if the unclassed novice wasn't at such a great disadvantage. Then we could force the novice to choose a city but not a class until they were more experienced.

    My idea would be to

    1) Have a generic class: "Adventurer" that has a few basic defenses and skills to hunt with
    2) Mandate city selection during the novice trial
    3) Limit class selection until the novice is sufficiently experienced

    It would introduce the element of competition from all the various Houses to garner interest in their own organisations from the novices.
    I sort of agree with this as a lot of people want to try a bunch of classes before they really pick one. Basically what I see that happens is that a Serpent joins house X via the Trial of Rebirth then joins City Y no knowing the house will want them in the city they are based out of. So then person has to quit house X or quit city Y. Then the person decides s/he doesn't like being class Z anymore and decides to be class A but house X doesn't allow class A into the house so person has to quit house X and join house B because it accepts class A.

    That is the only reason I like the "Adventurer" class idea. Unless they actually do have it so you join the city as whatever class and hope there is a house that accepts it. Sometimes I have seen people try 4 or 5 classes before deciding on one to keep. Anyway it could be a way to introduce you to classes and my point could be invalid as I am a bit tired... maybe I will sleep later :P
  • KorbenKorben Member Posts: 345 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I think city novicehood is a very good idea. Deep divisions and differences should be the stuff of intercity RP, not intracity. As it is now, Houses are the major hub of interaction for most players. Having all novices go through a city-wide system would (hopefully) build connections between them and between them and the people running the system, which would later last as they entered different Houses, creating a city-wide net.

    This would also be a boost for the novices of smaller Houses. It's easier to find a novice aide online if you're drawing from a larger pool.
    Silas
  • AradorArador Member Posts: 1,696 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I am not going to delve into the finer details here. I will however state the following.

    1. A reduction in redundant paperwork between Houses is a wonderful thing. I have been contemplating properly formalised Combat, Culture, Exploration, etc schools in the city. Houses then only say "To get Sentry you need to be level 2 in the combat school and level 1 in the Culture school. For Squire you need level 4 in the combat school, level 3 in the exploration and......" and so forth.

    2. This will not affect House RP unless you allow it to. A House is still focused around a certain ideology and its members still bond in that. The real life example would be.....well....school. All kids go to that same school but their family values, religion, hobbies etc all still differ. This might be a good model for us to follow.

    3. For a game, we spend an amazing amount of time working in it. Consolidating tasks like this makes sense not only to lessen the workload but also to ensure than no matter what House members are around, your young ones are looked after.

    I look forward to see how this all develops.

    Favonius
  • ShirszaeShirszae Santo DomingoMember Posts: 3,247 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Arador said:
    I am not going to delve into the finer details here. I will however state the following.

    1. A reduction in redundant paperwork between Houses is a wonderful thing. I have been contemplating properly formalised Combat, Culture, Exploration, etc schools in the city. Houses then only say "To get Sentry you need to be level 2 in the combat school and level 1 in the Culture school. For Squire you need level 4 in the combat school, level 3 in the exploration and......" and so forth.
    That sounds awfully generic. Really, one thing is a city-wide novice program. But those kind of schools and stuff are better left within the House, each to add their own unique flavors to them.

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...


    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

    Talonia
  • AradorArador Member Posts: 1,696 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Well there would be finer details and differences but being able to leverage shared resources between houses would help when basic doctrine is shared like in Mhaldor.

    Boosteya
  • SilasSilas Member Posts: 2,549 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I think Houses with paths/schools are the devil incarnate. Houses should themselves be paths for citizens to follow.

    AntoniusSkyeSynbios
  • SilasSilas Member Posts: 2,549 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    That's true, but that's only a problem because Houses aren't really Houses - they're still just bastardised guilds.

    KyrraSylvance
  • IocunIocun Member Posts: 3,506 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited May 2013
    So what? Houses aren't a completely new and different thing but actually have a certain history and tradition? I don't see this as a bad thing.

    And making them back into "bastardised guilds" was something that was wanted by many players and eventually supported by the admins, by restricting the number of allowed classes per house, putting back some degree of house-rank based class advancement, and removing certain new features like house-influence based council seats again. Personally, I like this.
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