City novicehood

Aduan

The point is Korben, that during the downtime, there's nearly nobody around, aide or otherwise. In Hashan it's 2-5 people during the downtime. And from those, the amount of aides (house or ambassadorial) is even smaller. As people who are around during the uptimes are generally elected for positions such as aide.

Fluke in the system there. And more over, if it is House aides doing it the way houses do it, see my point on City intro's becomming house intro's. Which follows the minia rogues line of thought.

Not saying it won't work. I'm saying it needs a lot more work then just pooling aides and having them solve it, with the current view / Status Quo.

Silas

Kyrra said:

I quite enjoyed being a novice aide with the runies forever ago. 15 minute orientations at most and while I was a little bit strict on testing novitiates, most people just enjoyed the interaction while making progress.

I also quite enjoy helping out. The era of Achaea that I started playing in, there were guilds. Guilds trained you understanding and learning to play your class, but there was also a fantastic city community that got everyone involved. Maybe it only existed in Cyrene. Novices asked on the city channel first if they needed help with anything, and they were encouraged to do so. There were constantly ratting contests, hunting contests, quizzes, and games that were run very frequently. Not only because it was a great opportunity to learn and get people involved, but because they were fun. Tt was the mindset at the time that not only is it okay to be involved but it could be a rewarding way to spend your time without monetary rewards, you got to know your city mates and bonds were forged outside of the guild. The city came first and the guilds supported who you wanted to be.

That's really not the case anymore and it's part of why I found Cyrene so suffocating upon my return from dormancy. Spending 2-3 years playing and actively contributing, because Achaea used to be a solely RP game and OOC was frowned upon, the basis of the Runewarden ethos was that a Runewarden served her city first. Imagine how depressing it is being frequently told not to bother or to stop wasting my time. People seldom want to get involved in things outside of their houses, people do their own things, and the city you now live in just happens to be another channel to talk on.

Part of what I see happening with Targossas is perhaps a return to the way things used to be in the time of guilds. They have no houses right now. They are a new city and they only have their city. They have to interact with everyone and asides from the two Orders, there are no organisational splits. The entire city helps with the few novices they get and there's no real thoughts of "Joe's not a member of my house, I don't have to help him, I can ignore him until someone else comes along." Targossas is really promising and I truly hope their community spirit continues to grow when they finally do get houses.

It's not just the Ambassador and aides responsible for new players and novices. Every single person, especially within your own faction, becomes an example to a new person. Someone new will look up to these people as they learn, and they are a role model. Whether it's Mhaldor, Targossas, or the tree hugging forestals, the examples that you set and how you interact with new people will large determine how they go on to play the game, if they even stick around at all. A small kindness or taking a moment to help someone out might actually stick with them, and might encourage them to do the same for someone new further down the line.

I agree with so much of this it's not even funny. The city went on an honours bashing trip the other day, and it reminded me just how much I missed the little things like that, and has definitely focused me on bringing some of that back to the city.

The way Houses became in Shallam was terrible. They were much, much too independent, to the point where Houses could and did hold the city to ransom to do whatever it was that that House's members wanted. This really shouldn't be how it is. People should give a shit about the cities they join and should want to actively contribute to it.

I'm looking forward to Houses in Targossas, because I'm excited to see what direction they take with them, but I'd be bitterly disappointed if they ended up just being a cut and paste of what didn't work in Shallam. I'm hopeful that the admins have learned from that and will take into account the ideas and feedback submitted by the players to create something that we all want, and that everybody can get behind. If that is the case, I'm also hopeful that in the long term, if it works in Targossas, this option will be opened to all the cities so that things can be freshened up everywhere to keep things moving forward.

Aduan

Well sounds like Targossas is a decent template.

To implement it on a city like Hashan or Cyrene i think would take more groundwork. Partially because Hashans ethos is a bit hard to define to newcomers.

The following might be a step ahead (even though i'm aware it's as well a means of forcing the issue, which doesn't always work):
- Make ALL citizens responsible for newcommer introductions. Especially concerning the down-times that would be a necessity.
(Possible enforcing it by sending novices a system message to adress the ambassador if it doesn't happen).
- The city defines a set of things to be discussed about the city ethos and welcome. This is vetted and endorsed by the Divine or Patronage.
- The Introduction must exist of interaction, e.g. prevent the helpfile/scroll spam and leave a novice to read and figure it out.
- Allow for novices asking questions on CT. People who find this tedious should really stick to the snob houses.

=> Making the learning of the first skills up to bashing skills a system thing. So newcommers aren't guessing what to learn and do. That could be perfectly added to the intro.

Hopefully it adds to more fun for the newcommers.

Synbios

Kyrra said:

I quite enjoyed being a novice aide with the runies forever ago. 15 minute orientations at most and while I was a little bit strict on testing novitiates, most people just enjoyed the interaction while making progress.

I also quite enjoy helping out. The era of Achaea that I started playing in, there were guilds. Guilds trained you understanding and learning to play your class, but there was also a fantastic city community that got everyone involved. Maybe it only existed in Cyrene. Novices asked on the city channel first if they needed help with anything, and they were encouraged to do so. There were constantly ratting contests, hunting contests, quizzes, and games that were run very frequently. Not only because it was a great opportunity to learn and get people involved, but because they were fun. Tt was the mindset at the time that not only is it okay to be involved but it could be a rewarding way to spend your time without monetary rewards, you got to know your city mates and bonds were forged outside of the guild. The city came first and the guilds supported who you wanted to be.

That's really not the case anymore and it's part of why I found Cyrene so suffocating upon my return from dormancy. Spending 2-3 years playing and actively contributing, because Achaea used to be a solely RP game and OOC was frowned upon, the basis of the Runewarden ethos was that a Runewarden served her city first. Imagine how depressing it is being frequently told not to bother or to stop wasting my time. People seldom want to get involved in things outside of their houses, people do their own things, and the city you now live in just happens to be another channel to talk on.

Part of what I see happening with Targossas is perhaps a return to the way things used to be in the time of guilds. They have no houses right now. They are a new city and they only have their city. They have to interact with everyone and asides from the two Orders, there are no organisational splits. The entire city helps with the few novices they get and there's no real thoughts of "Joe's not a member of my house, I don't have to help him, I can ignore him until someone else comes along." Targossas is really promising and I truly hope their community spirit continues to grow when they finally do get houses.

It's not just the Ambassador and aides responsible for new players and novices. Every single person, especially within your own faction, becomes an example to a new person. Someone new will look up to these people as they learn, and they are a role model. Whether it's Mhaldor, Targossas, or the tree hugging forestals, the examples that you set and how you interact with new people will large determine how they go on to play the game, if they even stick around at all. A small kindness or taking a moment to help someone out might actually stick with them, and might encourage them to do the same for someone new further down the line.

Join us.

Jonners

- Make ALL citizens responsible for newcommer introductions. Especially concerning the down-times that would be a necessity.
(Possible enforcing it by sending novices a system message to adress the ambassador if it doesn't happen).

No to this. Do you really want people who don't enjoy helping novices being forced to do it?

Korben

Silas said:

I'm looking forward to Houses in Targossas, because I'm excited to see what direction they take with them, but I'd be bitterly disappointed if they ended up just being a cut and paste of what didn't work in Shallam. I'm hopeful that the admins have learned from that and will take into account the ideas and feedback submitted by the players to create something that we all want, and that everybody can get behind. If that is the case, I'm also hopeful that in the long term, if it works in Targossas, this option will be opened to all the cities so that things can be freshened up everywhere to keep things moving forward.

Personally, I think Targossas could be single-House and that would work, but two-House would be ideal. Two Patrons, two Houses, one for combat and one for support.

Eld

Sounds kinda like what they already have with their Orders...

Eiredhel

This whole thread has been incredibly interesting and a lot of this is actually what Eiredhel has been studying ICly since she was... 20? Roleplaying and interacting with city-mates and getting them involved with the city ethos will go so far to help novices experience the unique flavors each city has to offer. There are way to many times where I've had long discussions with people, some ex-hashani, who had no idea about most of the culture or history of the city. 

Good-natured competition along with knowledge and respect go a long way. I've been enjoying learning all about the Lotus and helping them out in any way possibly because 1) it's good roleplay and 2) I would have never gotten a chance to explore so many different facets of my own city. 

It is really true how different things look depending on where you're standing. Teaching Spirit Walker novices about Hashan is different than discussing Hashani culture with a member of the Lotus, which is extraordinarily different from teaching my own House members the in-depth relationship between House and city. If we don't teach novices to love their cities, they won't. They can't just suddenly wake up one day and realize how important the city and investing in the roleplay related to them without people showing them the way and peaking their interest. 

Achimrst

Eiredhel said:

This whole thread has been incredibly interesting and a lot of this is actually what Eiredhel has been studying ICly since she was... 20? Roleplaying and interacting with city-mates and getting them involved with the city ethos will go so far to help novices experience the unique flavors each city has to offer. There are way to many times where I've had long discussions with people, some ex-hashani, who had no idea about most of the culture or history of the city. 

Good-natured competition along with knowledge and respect go a long way. I've been enjoying learning all about the Lotus and helping them out in any way possibly because 1) it's good roleplay and 2) I would have never gotten a chance to explore so many different facets of my own city. 

It is really true how different things look depending on where you're standing. Teaching Spirit Walker novices about Hashan is different than discussing Hashani culture with a member of the Lotus, which is extraordinarily different from teaching my own House members the in-depth relationship between House and city. If we don't teach novices to love their cities, they won't. They can't just suddenly wake up one day and realize how important the city and investing in the roleplay related to them without people showing them the way and peaking their interest. 

I totally agree with you on this Eiredhel, when I was a part of a city and going through the basic orientation with house members, oddly enough spirit walker novices, I used to take them to the library just to show them more of the city and tell them a bit about it. I didn't go too far as to explain the history or anything but I thought it helped a bit to get them involved in the city. Especially when I would tell them things like they can write and submit books. To me it did seem like novices were interested in the city but at the beginning they just get all caught up in the house and in bashing, although the newbie quests in the city helped with that a bit they seemed to like getting gold that way. Plus Damaris keeps losing her damn journal!!!

Synbios

Eld said:

Sounds kinda like what they already have with their Orders...

Nah, both Orders have their mix of combatants and ritualists, sometimes with some players being a mix of both.

Eld

Synbios said:

Eld said:

Sounds kinda like what they already have with their Orders...

Nah, both Orders have their mix of combatants and ritualists, sometimes with some players being a mix of both.

Fair enough. I assumed that even if one was mainly combat-oriented and the other mainly ritual/whatever-oriented, most people would be a mix of both. It was mainly the "two-org" aspect I was responding to.

Carmell

I just want to know how much longer it is going to be before this new system comes in.  Houses would be nice but it seems we're waiting on the new novice system.