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City novicehood

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  • SilasSilas Member Posts: 2,549 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    It's a matter of opinion, of course, but I've always seen Houses as more what the Crown Merchants or Ty Beirdd did/attempted to do. I've always thought that cities should be able to customise their Houses as they see fit, but I agree that the middle ground we reached with Houses was the best solution for the time the administration were willing to spend on it at that point.

    Now, it seems apparent that they're willing to revisit this, and I think it'd be great to see that greater allowance for customisation and flexibility so that Houses and cities can be closer to what everybody wants for them, without them all following the same generic House mould.

    Sylvance
  • IocunIocun Member Posts: 3,506 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I agree that something like the Crown Merchants probably comes closest to the original conception of "houses". But not all players liked that and many former guilds were, IMHO, quite worth preserving.

    I certainly wouldn't object to greater liberties in how houses can be organised/run, but personally I never minded the fact much that most houses are still similar to guilds, just with a less firm grip on class progression. Guilds are cool.
    HataruDelphinusJhaeli
  • SylvanceSylvance Member Posts: 1,477 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited May 2013
    Iocun said:
    I agree that something like the Crown Merchants probably comes closest to the original conception of "houses". But not all players liked that and many former guilds were, IMHO, quite worth preserving.

    I certainly wouldn't object to greater liberties in how houses can be organised/run, but personally I never minded the fact much that most houses are still similar to guilds, just with a less firm grip on class progression. Guilds are cool.
    Just to float an idea: Would it solve or create problems to have a system that had both Guilds and Houses?

    Bards Guild: "Hello, young adventurer! Sign here and we'll teach you how to be a Bard! You'll learn the intricacies of your class."
    Ty Beirdd: "Hello, young adventurer! Sign here and we'll teach you how to be a Bardd! You'll learn what it is to be a performing artist."
    Tvistor: If that was a troll, it was masterful.
    I take my hat off to you.
  • SilasSilas Member Posts: 2,549 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    If we had the population, guilds + houses would be ideal. I think as things are, it'd just stretch loyalties too thin. People would have cities, Houses, Orders, guilds and then any other orgs they belong to to dedicate themselves too in a separate way.

    This isn't to say it couldn't work, since there are players who'd enjoy adding or exploring the extra layers to their character, but I think it'd cause a lot of the orgs to lose relevance atm to add more.

    Could be nice to have the option to call yourself a guild or a house, though, and for each option to provide different customisables to the org.

    Shirszae
  • NyboeNyboe Member Posts: 83 ✭✭ - Stalwart
    Houses are fine as it is. If it wasn't for my house I wouldn't have made it through novice hood and I would have most likely given up very early.

    Houses not only provide necessary help files but the people in the house are actually willing to help because they been given the proper training to do so. Houses feels like a family now and I like it and don't want to ever see it go away.
    Veldrin
  • ShirszaeShirszae Santo DomingoMember Posts: 3,273 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Nyboe said:
    Houses are fine as it is. If it wasn't for my house I wouldn't have made it through novice hood and I would have most likely given up very early.

    Houses not only provide necessary help files but the people in the house are actually willing to help because they been given the proper training to do so. Houses feels like a family now and I like it and don't want to ever see it go away.
    The thing is, Houses are meant to be much more than simple helpfiles storeaways

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...


    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

    Daeir
  • IocunIocun Member Posts: 3,506 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I'm not sure "houses are (not) meant to be X" is a thing to ever be so convinced of. The beauty of Achaea is that organisations are player-run, and to the most part player-defined. While all houses should meet certain minimum standards when it comes to RP, "presenting a respectable image", and not pissing off their members overly much, I do not think they all need to follow some pre-approved admin concept. It's a nice thing that there are quite different approaches to what a house can be, some being more "educative facilities", some being close to "fanatical cults", some being, well, something like "families".

    Yes, that may sometimes result in houses that don't give the image of being particularly "driven", but artificially enforcing such a thing can be counterproductive. I'm also not personally sure a house necessarily has to "help drive the world". Identity and culture is important, but that isn't quite identical with "being a driving force", it simply provides a certain setting.

    I know the guy behind Neraeos and the role he plays is awesome and I have the greatest admiration for many things he did, but when he was patron of the Mojushai that kind of stance actually bothered me quite a bit, as he made a lot of changes on his own because he felt that this was needed to turn the house in the right direction without involving the house at all, which severely reduced the sense of actually being in a player-run organisation, while not giving us any chance to speak out against it because well, IC he's a god.
    Lynara
  • MelodieMelodie Port Saint Lucie, FloridaMember Posts: 5,099 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Whatever you drive towards is entirely up to the House - but if the House doesn't have some kind of purpose, things tend to get messy. It was one of my frustrations with the Mojushai, after I returned to Achaea. I won't lay any blame on a particular thing, but it bothered me.

    As to the opinion on Neraeos, I am 99% sure any God who actually cares does that (aka, not the half-dormant ones), on a fairly consistent basis. Neraeos was just more up front about it. But hey, you're entitled to your opinions, and obviously mine is a tad biased. ;)
    DelphinusJhaeli
  • IocunIocun Member Posts: 3,506 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Hard to say what constitutes a "purpose" and what doesn't. Some players want grander things than others.
    Melodie said:
    As to the opinion on Neraeos, I am 99% sure any God who actually cares does that (aka, not the half-dormant ones), on a fairly consistent basis. Neraeos was just more up front about it. But hey, you're entitled to your opinions, and obviously mine is a tad biased. ;)
    Oh, of course he's not the only one. Kastalia actually had that problem as well and I'm saying that despite obviously being a lot biased in her favour. I just didn't mind it as much in her case since she made decisions I happened to agree with, but I'm sure others might have. I just never thought that patrons should take an excessively active hand in their patroned houses with the exception of environments that are theocratic to begin with. I sometimes believe it would be better if houses didn't have patron gods at all, but simply celani/demigods/admins to help them behind the scenes.
    Prythe
  • MelodieMelodie Port Saint Lucie, FloridaMember Posts: 5,099 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I guess we'll have to agree to disagree! I find active Patrons who help more directly with any org pleasant. I enjoyed Kastalia, too, and was sad to see her take leave of the House.
  • LiancaLianca Fire and SpiceMember Posts: 428
    I'm with @Iocun on disliking the adamant "A House shouldn't be X" stance. It very much depends upon the culture of the House and some of the smaller, more-defined driven ones can definitely encourage a familial-type of trust. For some it is integral. This doesn't make them less a productive House, and often allows the members to pull together to accomplish even greater things.

    I wonder sometimes that the rigidly hierarchical organisations fall down in this respect because of the top down mentality, where something doesn't happen unless orders come through from the elders and the younger members/lower ranks find they have much less input, where in the top setup they'd actually feel comfortable enough to experiment, join in and suggest things.
    The sweltering heat of the forge spills out across the land as the rumbling voice of Phaestus booms, "I want you to know, the Garden reaction to that one is: What?"
    The voice of Melantha, Goddess of the Seasons, echoes amid the rustle of leaves, "That's the censored version."
    ShirszaeAmunetTalonia
  • MelodieMelodie Port Saint Lucie, FloridaMember Posts: 5,099 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Don't get me wrong -I don't disagree that for some Houses, familiarity is important. My only point is that Houses have more behind them than just that, and it shouldn't be -the- main focus, I feel.
  • NyboeNyboe Member Posts: 83 ✭✭ - Stalwart
    Where is this going?
  • ShirszaeShirszae Santo DomingoMember Posts: 3,273 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Nyboe said:
    Where is this going?

    Somewhere.


    Maybe.

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...


    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

  • SylvanceSylvance Member Posts: 1,477 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Silas said:
    If we had the population, guilds + houses would be ideal. I think as things are, it'd just stretch loyalties too thin. People would have cities, Houses, Orders, guilds and then any other orgs they belong to to dedicate themselves too in a separate way. This isn't to say it couldn't work, since there are players who'd enjoy adding or exploring the extra layers to their character, but I think it'd cause a lot of the orgs to lose relevance atm to add more. Could be nice to have the option to call yourself a guild or a house, though, and for each option to provide different customisables to the org.
    I meant more that you would have to choose between joining a Guild or a House. But I agree that the population couldn't currently support that.
    Tvistor: If that was a troll, it was masterful.
    I take my hat off to you.
  • RispokRispok Member Posts: 718 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Just to chime in... @Silas raised a good contradiction. He likes the merchants, but we have paths.
  • JonnersJonners Member Posts: 475 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited June 2013
    After reading every post in this thread I have a few ideas, concerns, and thoughts regarding this.

    Firstly I feel the idea in general is good, however I'd take it a step or two further.

    As someone mentioned earlier I think it would be perfect if all general tasks that must be completed by everyone be relegated to the automated task system. There is no reason that any live person should have to make sure Joe has a health vial, pack, or any other basic basic equipment. 
    Along side this the first basic set of novice equipment should include weapon and armour for their class (with a low decay time and slightly below average stats). To compliment this a general help scroll setup should be added. HELP DRUID BASIC(S) should tell you that hyena and claw is your basic bashing skills and so forth. Frankly I feel any and all newbie training (separate from House novice training in their specific House things) should be handled via the world mechanics rather than any particular House or City. Unifying this experience would make it easier for novices to navigate novicehood and for novice helpers, both official and not, to help novices regarding it.

    With that being said I strongly encourage the introduction of CNT. I feel that often times questions are left unasked, especially in cities like Mhaldor, because the city channel is held sacrosanct. By giving novices a city channel meant for asking stupid questions you can give them an outlet for their questions with a large enough group of people they might actually get answer and the main city channel can remain uncluttered.

    And now for a controversial idea that has likely been put forth before but considering the nature of this thread I feel I should mention it. Why not just remove classes being tied to Houses entirely? Have joining a House a personal thing and the requirements for joining that House based on whatever reasons the House desires, but leave class out of it entirely? Obviously there are some exceptions to this. Those exceptions could be eliminated though by having class restrictions being a city level thing, we all ready see some of this with the forestal/alchemy divide.  Then it just becomes a matter of whether Joe would like to join the House and whether the House feels Joe will fit well within their ideals, not their hard coded mechanics.

    Bring black class channels and then these can be the place for novices or oldbies looking for help on their class, if they can find someone else from their city then great but what does it really matter, especially when it's a newb asking where to find the public enchanting room. The point to me is that Houses are centres for group ideals and goals to be taught, unified, and pushed forward. They are not, or should not be, a place to learn how to be the best monk or serpent.

    In short I see it like this. A newbie has the newb channel, a citizen has the CNT channel, a class has the class channel. Houses are ideologically centred rather than class centred, class restrictions happen on a city level rather than a house level. Basic basics should be hardcoded (most are all ready I believe) with the various channels available to them should they need help or have questions.
    ~
    You close your eyes momentarily and extend the range of your vision, seeking out the presence of Drugs. 
    Though too far away to accurately perceive details, you see that Drugs is in Mhaldor.
    Lynara
  • JonnersJonners Member Posts: 475 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited June 2013
    So introduce them to it when they lose the newbie channel then, there's no reason very basic class questions can't be handled on newb. But if the rest of my idea was implemented it would be important there be a place for people to ask specific class questions. Especially since the point of all this is to make it easier for newbs to find help when they need it and not be stuck waiting for someone in their house or even city (for some of the less common classes in a city) to come around.
    ~
    You close your eyes momentarily and extend the range of your vision, seeking out the presence of Drugs. 
    Though too far away to accurately perceive details, you see that Drugs is in Mhaldor.
  • LynaraLynara Member Posts: 39 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I agree. Most newbies don't really need to know everything going on on CT, same as they don't need HT right off the bat. Class channel could come further down the road; either at journeyman, or at level 30 when they become ranked. A CNT channel, in many cases, would be highly beneficial to these 'quiet' houses... Way I see it, you could do this easily without overwhelming a newbie with channels:

    Join: Newbie, HNT, CNT.
    Lvl 11: Market
    Level 30: Class.
    At City Discretion: CT
    At House Discretion: HT

    As far as houses being ideologically centered instead of class centered, I'm all for that. There's no reason a person whose class happens to be 'blademaster', for instance, can't learn to use the skills and talents he or she has to, let's say, perform with the Ty Beirdd. Or sell stuff with the Merchants. Those things should be at the houses discretion, not at a hard-coded discretion. If the house feels person X is suited to their house, then the house should be able to welcome person X into their house, regardless of what class they are.

    Now. Perhaps there are too many houses per city. That's entirely possible. Perhaps there need to be less houses, with more diverse branches within the house. I'm not speaking as to all that. And clearly, some houses might restrict people based on their class... But let them restrict it, and make exceptions if they so choose. Run by the players, for the players, with the Gods acting as Divine Guidance, not the decision-makers.


    Just my two cents.

    (The Midnight Crew): Cain says, "You on your period lynara?"

    (The Midnight Crew): Micaelis says, "Lynara coded periods out of his DNA."
    CesarinaKorben
  • MishgulMishgul ROTHERHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMMember Posts: 5,372 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Nothing wrong with using CT to ask for help. Why would that be so wrong?

    -

    One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important

    As drawn by Shayde
    hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae
    Delphinus
  • JonnersJonners Member Posts: 475 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Mishgul said:
    Nothing wrong with using CT to ask for help. Why would that be so wrong?
    I've played a novice in Mhaldor before, admittedly this was a looooong time ago. I always felt uncomfortable asking things on CT and would seek out people specifically for help instead.
    ~
    You close your eyes momentarily and extend the range of your vision, seeking out the presence of Drugs. 
    Though too far away to accurately perceive details, you see that Drugs is in Mhaldor.
  • KorbenKorben Member Posts: 345 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Lynara said:
    Now. Perhaps there are too many houses per city. That's entirely possible. Perhaps there need to be less houses, with more diverse branches within the house. I'm not speaking as to all that.

    You touch on a good point; there are entirely too many Houses for the current playerbase, the playerbase is not going to grow by leaps and bounds any time soon because we have fewer newbies coming in, and once newbies start going through the proposed city system there will be even fewer people in the small Houses. A little consolidation would be good.
    SoludraMazoth
  • AchimrstAchimrst NatureMember Posts: 3,608 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Jonners said:
    Mishgul said:
    Nothing wrong with using CT to ask for help. Why would that be so wrong?
    I've played a novice in Mhaldor before, admittedly this was a looooong time ago. I always felt uncomfortable asking things on CT and would seek out people specifically for help instead.
    I always thought it was illegal to talk on CT in Mhaldor.
  • MishgulMishgul ROTHERHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMMember Posts: 5,372 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    n

    -

    One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important

    As drawn by Shayde
    hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae
  • KorbenKorben Member Posts: 345 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited June 2013
    At the time of autoclass (2005 I think), we came to the agreement that `since guilds can no longer hold class loss over peoples` heads as a threat, they`ll have to be extra interesting and cool to get people to join`.

    8 years down the line, I think we can say that has not worked so well. It saddens me to say it, but I agree: Houses will lose what little function they still have when city novicehood comes in.

    If we want to keep Houses, I think there has to be a definite benefit to joining them (beyond Icon bonuses). I would enjoy seeing House-specific skills, for example.
  • AchimrstAchimrst NatureMember Posts: 3,608 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    As a person who was in a house for a long time and then now in a clan that is way better then my house ever was, don't judge your not in my clan, I see things a bit differently. I completely agree that it seems houses are kind of falling off a cliff here and are becoming obsolete. The clan I am in has just as much history as a house so what @Vansitart is saying makes complete sense to me because my clan is in fact a glorified clan and feels more like a house then any house in the past ever has even with the IC stuff going on.


  • NimNim Member Posts: 2,015 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    I'm not sure I like the term "glorified clan," as if clans are somehow inherently useless or worthless. If anything, I like clans a little bit more, because my favorite thing about roleplaying is its ability to change and be alive... and houses are these strange immortal structures that, lacking the ability to die (short of an undead elder dragon literally destroying the city your house was in), lack the ability to manage anything more than a fake life.

    Clans at least can die, even if most end via boring apathy or the rare drama fallout (but that's to be expected in a world where corporal death is just a few minutes of inconvenience and a bit of experience).

    That said, aside from the roleplaying implications, I think houses being immortal is one of their biggest problems (from a general design standpoint rather than something that makes them inherently awful). The main functions of a house are to teach novices and contribute to the overall roleplaying atmosphere. The former relies on teachers and teaching materials, while the latter relies on roleplayers and lore. All of these things can fluctuate or outright diminish over time. Thus, there's no real guarantee that, at any given time, any given house will be a good environment for players, new or old.

    I don't have a good solution, but this is just why I think cities ought to have the role of taking care of novices, so houses can be more specialized toward the role of roleplaying. I have no particular evidence to prove that this will be a better outcome for either issue, except that I know there are many Achaeans who can teach people things without necessarily being the same class or in the same house at the time.

    I also hope that the reduced scope will allow houses to evolve into something more interesting and engaging, although such evolution might come at its usual price.

    (That usual price of evolution is survival of the fittest, aka death. Evolution is paid for with death. That's how it works. I just thought I'd be super extra obvious about pointing that out. >_> )

    AchimrstHalosShirszaeEiredhel
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