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Comments
It's okay if after an entire month of what is usually a fun game being a grueling grind people aren't particularly interested in wallowing in defeat for another 2 weeks or find another way to respond ICly.
It's okay if they do something on their end to make the game more enjoyable for them in a way that has no impact on anything else. If a simple gag does that? Great. As someone who constantly looks for ways to make the game more enjoyable, I would have been delighted to find something so simple. Sock puppet shows and riddles and quizzes will have to do!
And it's okay if you think Targossas' players aren't handling the loss in the way you think they should. Play it out in-game if you catch signs of it - point out the ignorance, the refusal to learn, whatever. There's so much more interesting things you can do than trash people on the forums about it.
Please, stop attacking each other OOCly. It doesn't get you what you want, it just makes all involved dig their feet in further.
Like we all worked hard this past month. It’s been long. Mhaldor and Targossas put in work.
There will always be bad apples on both sides, and it is best to ignore those people even though they (we?) tend to be most vocal.
It smells of a child smacking another kid then screaming to mom when they get hit back.
As far as constructive thoughts on the war, I think Crixos summed up the majority of my thoughts just fine. The only thing I would add is that we need to finally audit Guards. They're too strong, hiring during a sanction is stupid, hire shouldn't be 1/3 of the time of station, and there should be a hard CD on hiring spam or something. When 20 artied people can't even move two rooms because of how guards work, I think that's a clear indication that they're skewed too heavily in the favor of the defense. I don't think they need to be nerfed necessarily, but the mechanics around hiring/station/retiring need to be looked at. Can we also go back to the hard cap of 10 guards per room? 15 constables responding to cfh spam is impossible.
Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
Also the vast majority of Targossas were great sports throughout the war and there were some pretty cool and fun fights. We had some bitching from both sides, but I think in general both sides were surprisingly civil about it. It could definitely have been a lot worse. I feel @Sothantos especially was an absolute champion throughout it all and while I'm just an outsider, I think Targ is lucky to have a CL like that. I suspect I'd have had a great time on Targ's side too, so I hope you all focus on the good (lowercase g this time!) too!
As for constructive feedback:
- 1 year was definitely enough in the current war system. Most of the fun fights happened in the first half of the war, the latter became a bit of a grind at times.
- Guards could use a minor rework, maybe something as simple as guard deaths charging tanks, with diminishing returns, or something else to make them not the main thing to account for on both sides of conflict.
- Better yet, make tanks have less impact. I don't mind keeping them as part of it, but they shouldn't be the main method to win or lose wars. Raids are the most fun when neither side really cares about the outcome.
- Coupled with above, provide incentive to fight more outside cities. Shrine defilement is certainly an option between Targossas and Mhaldor, but this won't work very well with other cities.
- And yes, we want those banners in Mhaldor too! Can we have them, please?
Like the transparent attempts to save face, there's quite a bit of bait-and-switch going on here. Someone like Astarod will crow about something stupid, get called out for it, and then say that he never had any skin in the game anyway (because he lost). Worse, the intent seems to be signalling to Aurora that you don't want to play with any consequences.
"You just want S&M with Sothantos!" is not a compelling response. I'm still out here trying, in the hopes that someone like @Issam or another paragon of Good will respond.
Most of your regular players have quietly dissociated themselves, and I understand their frustration at being painted with the same brush.
Reaching down with a massive hand, Sartan lifts your head and draws a taloned finger across your throat, the wound closing as He does so.
- Also I don't think we should discredit the font tank ping. Like ok from our point of view, the lvl2 sneaky tank was cool. But if it happened to me, I'd be miffed as all fuck, so imo font tank ping should be a thing 100%
- Give us banners too plz ty
A lot of Targossian players at the start waxed high and mighty about accepting consequences IC, and I've not seen a single Targossian IC even accept defeat. By every observable IC metric, defeat was clear as can be, the only barometer that seems to be bandied about is 'this war wasn't as awful as the ones before it so I, as a player, don't feel beaten.' If you can't see why some of us take issue with that, I guess we're just on opposite sides of this topic.
@Sartan put us in some tough spots, but I'm actually happy he did, in the end. He kept it pretty grounded with IC consequences and rationales, even if it put us in a pickle sometimes. Big props to the big guy.
In the end, I really don't think anyone in Mhaldor wants to make anyone else feel despondent or humiliated. But when a war is done and the side that loses is pretending it was a tie (or a win, for some characters), it basically leaves the other team in a spot where the only assumption is that said team is full of lunatics, and that's not an avenue we can make much out of, I feel.
@Atalkez hit it on the head, though. Anyone can say/act/think anything they want about the conflict and its outcome. We're entitled to express our reaction, though.
Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
I just want to say congrats to Mhaldor for winning the war. You were really well organised and it was fun to fight against you.
I wish I could have been more helpful.
I recently returned to the game and I thought I’ll have plenty of time to learn about Achaean combat, but we were suddenly at war. Most of Targ’s players seem to have been in a similar position, so it was slightly frustrating for us at times, but we pushed through and did our best.
Despite not winning, I couldn’t be prouder of my ig city, we stayed positive through this mess, we improved considerably and we will kick their bums next time!
Thank you, @AllOfTargossas for putting up with me (and my gazillion mistakes), for being supportive and just pure awesome. The slaughterfest at the end of the war was an amazing idea, it was refreshing to fight not worrying about the consequences.
My only unpleasant experiences have been with @Dunn. Your humiliating comments (aware I would automatically relay them on the party channel) were completely unnecessary. Also, touching yourself because you knew a female was mind sapiencing you, is just gross and childish. Maybe I am overly sensitive, but it got me worried what you’re going to do next time.
For future wars, could we reduce the use of guards somehow, please? Maybe give cities 1 real day at the beginning of the war to place guards wherever they wish, but then you can’t move them, only rehire?
Also this thread is good. Keep it up.
Won’t defend the other comments. I was commenting on the thought process behind sapiencing me as a non leader.
Throwing the term gaslighting around is an example of how seriously you seem to take this and how much you seem to value Astarod's opinion of your character's victory. In my experience, gaslighting is a term used most commonly for extremely abusive relationships, most often emotional abuse. Accusing us OOCly of gaslighting is so wildly unexpected that I don't even know how to, or if I even should, respond to it. Maybe you're using it in a way in line with what you understand it to be and that's different from what I view it to be, but the notion that you think we are even in a position to gaslight you is just ... what? Gaslighting in my perspective is a very serious accusation, so to see you accuse people on the forums of it was very surprising to me. It's not a casual word to me.
If people don't respond to what you're doing IC in the way that you want them to, that's okay. Whether that's making light of a post by hammering on a character's history, minimizing the loss by pointing out tactics, or simply not engaging with it, that's their call. React to that ICly. If people don't view game mechanics of a war system in a text game as meaningful, that's okay too. You said this leaves the other team in a spot where the only assumption is that (the other) team is full of lunatics. I'm going to hope that you mean IC, and say that's no different from anything else. Of course Targossas is full of lunatics. Mhaldor is, too. Achaea is a game where literal genocide is commonplace. What are you looking for, here, on the OOC forums?
What are you hoping to gain from all of this OOC posturing?
I think that largely you have to take quantitative/points-based systems in a game like this with a grain of salt. It isn't like more competitive games where you're working with otherwise sterile environments and evenly matched teams. Instead, we have geographically divergent cities, different skillsets, different numbers of players, etc.; the list is exhaustive and makes it nearly impossible to determine what is fair or evenly matched. Nobody is going to agree on what is a win or a loss OOCly because there's dozens of explanations you can use to justify the outcomes.
I don't think there's a lot of value in trying to convince people that they aren't taking the loss (or win?) seriously enough - as players we're generally going to view our characters as the protagonists of our stories, and that includes spinning outcomes to fit that narrative. @Astarod is handling it fine in my opinion, he doesn't have to wallow in defeat and it seems ridiculous to have a strong opinion about how he's choosing to handle it. You can control how your character views victory, but you don't get any real say in how others treat defeat.
There's too much forums RP happening here for my liking. I had a good time playing with my team and I hope the other side found it just as exciting (and stressful). There's definite consequences for the outcomes ICly, but there's no point in pushing the idea that anyone should feel like a loser. I think everyone should take the system for what it is and interpret it through the lens you want, because ultimately it's another tool for building your character, whatever that ends up as.
Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
Targ acknowledged the loss of the war SIX HOURS before it ended, in Sothantos' Last Stand (tm) where we were told - literally - by our God and our Dawnlord to die in the dirt in service to Them, in an attempt to make up for our failure to Creation. It won't be brushed under the rug, and it will be something that defines the trajectory of Targossas for years to come, whether some dingbats gag the banners or not.
In terms of actual feedback: For our side, the end of the war was extremely anticlimactic. I'm sure this is because it was a bad hour for Rory. But I couldn't figure out exactly when it was going to end, and then it ended, and there were a few world emotes and Pandora did as Pandora does. It took me awhile to realise that the banners had even been placed. A few of us as players tried to fill the void, to send people to lick their wounds and dwell in our collective failure, to pray, to apologise. I lectured on CT, Silas posted to news.
Mhaldor seemed immediately swept into some roleplay with Sartan, which I did not think was appropriate to interrupt in the spirit of any cross-factional RP. Especially given that S-man indicated we'd be getting ours next month, I opted to go to bed. There will be more public acknowledgments coming, I am sure, but I can promise you that on behalf of the leadership of Targossas this loss won't be forgotten. It just may not involve you guys (and your behaviour here makes me disinclined to have it involve you, since it may not rise to the level of your standards for what our misery should look like).
This DOES NOT MEAN that I can make our citizens do anything OOCly. They can log out, choose not to participate, or OOCly pretend like it's been a unicorn ballet for 3 weeks, but ICly? They won't get over this debt to Creation anytime soon. You can be a part of that, or not, and it'll happen with or without you.