Third Black Wave: Electric Boogaloo

Veldrin

Adrik said:

Bcz it feels super cheap to Tide Bait with a novice. Feels more like abuse of mechanics.

Not to mention the novice really doesn't get anything out of it

Armali

You do you, then.

Cooper

Veldrin said:

Adrik said:

Bcz it feels super cheap to Tide Bait with a novice. Feels more like abuse of mechanics.

Not to mention the novice really doesn't get anything out of it

Makarios plainly stated he encourages people to abuse unintended things.

I've used 1 person to do this, and compensated them for their time. You can do the same

Lenn

If you think it's abusive, you should BUG it.

Cooper

It isn't a bug.

Sena

Asmodron said:

Magic is generally best to avoid in a debate, because it can be used in an excuse for...well anything. How to solve x? Magic. What about Y? Magic. Thus it is far more logical to view it from more physical attributes.

That's not very useful when specific known abilities invalidate the premise of the debate though. The entire point of a siege, and the centre of all your arguments, is that it's hard to get an army into a city. In Achaea you can use magic to enter a city; as long as you can sneak a few people in, the rest of the army is easy. So the mountains offer protection against a siege, but it doesn't matter if there would be no siege in the first place.

Davok

This line of argument is flawed in some fashion because then there's no point to walls or fortresses at all. I thought the idea was that adventurers are like level 20 characters classes and a rare cut above most of the population, with real standing armies (like your guards, the Dread Legate legions, Tsol'aa rangers etc.) still existing as traditional forces.

Asmodron

Sena said:

Asmodron said:

Magic is generally best to avoid in a debate, because it can be used in an excuse for...well anything. How to solve x? Magic. What about Y? Magic. Thus it is far more logical to view it from more physical attributes.

That's not very useful when specific known abilities invalidate the premise of the debate though. The entire point of a siege, and the centre of all your arguments, is that it's hard to get an army into a city. In Achaea you can use magic to enter a city; as long as you can sneak a few people in, the rest of the army is easy. So the mountains offer protection against a siege, but it doesn't matter if there would be no siege in the first place.

A large focus of the idea is based on troops themselves which are relatively akin to guards/npcs. I look at the stories of the first black wave and then the civil wars in Seleucar and you see more physical attributes of troop. Magic is used more as a wildcard there (like using the staff of nicator).

While indeed the idea of magic to state "You could portal in your troops" basically invalidates the geographical defensive strength of any city in Achaea, it also makes the entire concept of building a defense next to nil. Thus why I look at it from a far more simple viewpoint of npc troops trying to attack a city, and leave the concept of magical capability for a strategic use.

This isnt about strategies used in a siege. Any solid commander can conceive some idea to invade a city (such as using the staff to open a portal to send in troops). This is looking at it from a simple outward view of how hard the troops would have it trying to get in.

To try and keep this on topic: It's why I see the Tsol'teth attacking Cyrene not based on 'they are the easiest'. It definitely was -not- about

Adrik

Cooper said:

Veldrin said:

Adrik said:

Bcz it feels super cheap to Tide Bait with a novice. Feels more like abuse of mechanics.

Not to mention the novice really doesn't get anything out of it

Makarios plainly stated he encourages people to abuse unintended things.

I've used 1 person to do this, and compensated them for their time. You can do the same

"If it feels to good to be true... it probably is."

I don't really care one way or the other, but I suppose I can stoop to abusing mechanics in unintended ways--

Jk lmao I would never do that. I'm going to pace myself on shrine destruction so I don't burn myself out.

Atalkez

Tried and true method:

Bug it and use it until they answer the bug 🤷🏻‍♂️

Asmodron

Folding the Veil of reality, you bend your mighty will to seek out Hailqas'an.
A makeshift camp high in the mountains. (indoors)
A warm cup of creamy fruit pudding sits here, lidded and warm to the touch. Hailqas'an abides here. Rapacious eyes drinking in her surroundings, Gattan'bahar stands in preternatural stillness. Trusad'an abides here.

We have discovered their weak-spot. They like pudding.

Aegoth

Give them Sidhe rainbow pudding. 

Tahquil

@Skye I need a comic of the three Tsol'teth in a little tent gazing intently at a pudding cup (on a pedestal) trying to unwrap its mysteries.

Accipiter

I was really enjoying this event, working together with everyone to stem the tide and even if we were failing it was like we we doing something. Then Hashan allied with them and basically stole all interaction for the event from anyone who isn't on the ruling council. The teth stated that they don't care about the tide (I assume for gameplay reasons) so you can still go grind gold and xp if you want but there is no meaning there anymore, you can't even help expand the tide because it is useless. 

It just feels like a massive fuck you to be essentially excluded from the only parts of events that playing at odd hours ever lets you do.

Archaeon

'This event isn't tailored to me so I'm angry'

Accipiter

Archaeon said:

'This event isn't tailored to me so I'm angry'

'This event was perfectly tailored to me but then other players screwed me out of it so I'm angry'

Tesha

Ugh, warm pudding. They've gone too far, that's just wrong. Wrong!

Elisella

Accipiter said:

Then Hashan allied with them and basically stole all interaction for the event from anyone who isn't on the ruling council.

I dunno, sounds like you have a good chance to go French resistance if you disagree with your leadership "allying" with a hostile external power.

You're as screwed out of RP for disagreeing with Hashan's stance as you want to be. Are you going to get the pat on the head from the admin and a cushy spot in an events post? Maybe not, but most people don't.

Palusa

Veldrin said:

Adrik said:

Bcz it feels super cheap to Tide Bait with a novice. Feels more like abuse of mechanics.

Not to mention the novice really doesn't get anything out of it

Having actually done it, I'd say "Repelling the tide at an increased pace, especially from rooms that were 7 or 8 thick in tide spawnings at one point" was ample IC compensation, on top of the actual compensation. See it from my character's perspective: There is almost absolutely nothing she can do beyond fighting the tide at this time, she's Mhaldorian so clear goals are set and its a chance to interact with another Mhaldorian she hasn't yet. All part of the master plan to be 3rd assistant junior skull pyramid polisher & Mhaldorus wing tender by 900 AF

It's also not as simple as it sounds. Whenever the tide was cleared the things that were making no effort to sweep the floors suddenly would come back and start kicking our teeth in too, so it ends up being a juggling act of spawning as many as possible, doubling back when getting too far ahead and start killing, and choosing when to stop and wipe out a gaggling band of denizens now tearing at Palusa's ankles. Just walking room to room is not only simpler,  but it was annoyingly less efficient, and the cardinal sin: Boring. 

Plus if we're really looking at "novice advantage" in this event I'm not the only one who has died a dozen times during it bare minimum. I've already lost far more experience than I'd ever get back, if was really about the XPs Palusa would sit around fishing and keeping very quiet, not joining every forsaken hope squad where and I directly quote "Okay you're going to go die here, but it'll work" has been said to her four times in slightly different ways now, this event has not been conducive to adventurer health, it HAS been conducive to the RP experience, at least for her. 

Torrent

Tahquil said:

@Skye I need a comic of the three Tsol'teth in a little tent gazing intently at a pudding cup (on a pedestal) trying to unwrap its mysteries.

You missed the part with the headless corpse and @Prythe head. I am getting a Mars Attacks vibes with the girl and the dog!

Tahquil

Ack, Ack ack ack!

Torrent

Image of Gattan'bahar found!!!

Tesha

Palusa said:

Having actually done it, I'd say "Repelling the tide at an increased pace, especially from rooms that were 7 or 8 thick in tide spawnings at one point" was ample IC compensation, on top of the actual compensation. See it from my character's perspective: There is almost absolutely nothing she can do beyond fighting the tide at this time, she's Mhaldorian so clear goals are set and its a chance to interact with another Mhaldorian she hasn't yet. All part of the master plan to be 3rd assistant junior skull pyramid polisher & Mhaldorus wing tender by 900 AF

It's also not as simple as it sounds. Whenever the tide was cleared the things that were making no effort to sweep the floors suddenly would come back and start kicking our teeth in too, so it ends up being a juggling act of spawning as many as possible, doubling back when getting too far ahead and start killing, and choosing when to stop and wipe out a gaggling band of denizens now tearing at Palusa's ankles. Just walking room to room is not only simpler,  but it was annoyingly less efficient, and the cardinal sin: Boring. 

Plus if we're really looking at "novice advantage" in this event I'm not the only one who has died a dozen times during it bare minimum. I've already lost far more experience than I'd ever get back, if was really about the XPs Palusa would sit around fishing and keeping very quiet, not joining every forsaken hope squad where and I directly quote "Okay you're going to go die here, but it'll work" has been said to her four times in slightly different ways now, this event has not been conducive to adventurer health, it HAS been conducive to the RP experience, at least for her. 

What a healthy attitude. Welcome to Achaea! Stay just the way you are.

Asmodron

Accipiter said:

I was really enjoying this event, working together with everyone to stem the tide and even if we were failing it was like we we doing something. Then Hashan allied with them and basically stole all interaction for the event from anyone who isn't on the ruling council. The teth stated that they don't care about the tide (I assume for gameplay reasons) so you can still go grind gold and xp if you want but there is no meaning there anymore, you can't even help expand the tide because it is useless. 

It just feels like a massive fuck you to be essentially excluded from the only parts of events that playing at odd hours ever lets you do.

I can 100% confirm that you do not need to be on the Hashan council in order to get interactions from the tsol'teth or otherwise.

I rather enjoyed my chat with Gattan'Bahar yesterday. Ty to whomever took the time.

Edit: As for removing or pushing tide, I suppose we could inquire about it.

Lenn

All the tsol'teth are mean to me.

I just want to stalk them...

Synthus

Elisella said:

Accipiter said:

Then Hashan allied with them and basically stole all interaction for the event from anyone who isn't on the ruling council.

 I dunno, sounds like you have a good chance to go French resistance if you disagree with your leadership "allying" with a hostile external power.

Now that would be awesome to see. Hashan's forces push out onto the field in Nishnatoba or on to some fight somewhere, and when they return they find themselves in the midst of a civil war. Declare them enemies of the city for treason, declare the Tsol'teth enemies, even add to the confusion by having players back and forth enemy and unenemy themselves, confuse the guard, utter and sheer chaos ensues.

If the Tsol'teth-loyalists win, it still makes the Tsol'teth question their "alliance" with them, or at the very least their competence in sniffing out treason and descent, or to them maybe it would be their "instability"?

If the Hashani Resistance wins, the Tsol'teth are ejected from the city for the moment, but may return to attack and seize the city at any time, just like Cyrene. Scrambling to forge an alliance with the Coalition would be the best option, but would the Coalition accept the Hashani Resistance at that point, or view them as just more of the same?

That would make a hell of a news post, and it'd be an awesome player-driven event.

Iloisee

Veldrin said:

Adrik said:

Bcz it feels super cheap to Tide Bait with a novice. Feels more like abuse of mechanics.

Not to mention the novice really doesn't get anything out of it

They get to feel like they're actually helping without having to die constantly! If that does nothing for them, no one (reasonable) is going to begrudge them saying no. But I'm not alone in finding it far more gratifying to work as a team this way and get a heckin lot more done.

Asmodron

Synthus said:

Elisella said:

Accipiter said:

Then Hashan allied with them and basically stole all interaction for the event from anyone who isn't on the ruling council.

 I dunno, sounds like you have a good chance to go French resistance if you disagree with your leadership "allying" with a hostile external power.

Now that would be awesome to see. Hashan's forces push out onto the field in Nishnatoba or on to some fight somewhere, and when they return they find themselves in the midst of a civil war. Declare them enemies of the city for treason, declare the Tsol'teth enemies, even add to the confusion by having players back and forth enemy and unenemy themselves, confuse the guard, utter and sheer chaos ensues.

If the Tsol'teth-loyalists win, it still makes the Tsol'teth question their "alliance" with them, or at the very least their competence in sniffing out treason and descent, or to them maybe it would be their "instability"?

If the Hashani Resistance wins, the Tsol'teth are ejected from the city for the moment, but may return to attack and seize the city at any time, just like Cyrene. Scrambling to forge an alliance with the Coalition would be the best option, but would the Coalition accept the Hashani Resistance at that point, or view them as just more of the same?

That would make a hell of a news post, and it'd be an awesome player-driven event.

Not really how citizen/uncitizen mechanics work. Cant remove those in higher position than you.

However I think what is being suggested is starting a resistance among the people, rather than using a mechanic.

Synthus

Asmodron said:

Not really how citizen/uncitizen mechanics work. Cant remove those in higher position than you.

However I think what is being suggested is starting a resistance among the people, rather than using a mechanic.

So, what may be a stupid question, but keep in mind I'm completely unfamiliar with the enemy/unenemy mechanic beyond "So and so is now an enemy and you are ordered to kill them on sight!" stuff that forces city defenses to attack a player. Can a city declare one of it's own citizens an enemy to the city without uncitizening them? If not, then yeah, my dreams are dashed.

Well, that is, unless the seneschal decided to go all "I have unperson'd you" to the majority of Hashan's leadership.

The problem I see with trying to do something IC'ly lies with those very same mechanics. Right now is that if you tried to start a "resistance" movement, you'd just be uncitizened and enemied. It could be argued that influence could be built up to challenge the seneschal and flip the decision, but again, that boils down to needing the top-tier of leadership, which seems circular to the initial problem of novice players feeling "excluded", but I do see where you also addressed that earlier.

I feel like I'm rambling now, but I still wanna see a Hashani civil war from all this.  

Pyori

No mechanics like MKO, where they're an outcast in the city. (enemied, but still a citizen)

And, knowing most Achaea players, even if such a thing did exist they'd still just jump the gun and uncitizen+enemy you instead.