Quick Combat Questions

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  • edited January 2015
    Stuneree said:
    Some questions: One, does serpent/bm evade counter tower rubble/bananas (or any passive hinderance)? If I drop a tower and bananas in a room against a serpent, are they susceptible to the same hindrance as everyone else? Also, I've NEVER used Moon tarot or Devil tarot. What exactly do they do? Or are they basically just for occies?
    Eld said:
    Yes, evade bypasses rubble/bananas, and most (all? can't think of any it doesn't) other roomwide hindrances. Moon gives a random mental affliction. I _think_ Devil has a chance to throw an extra card from a small pool when you throw one, not sure on the mechanics there.

    The only things that stop evade are: (help me out here?)

     Doors, Stun, amnesia (once), writheables, stupidity (RNG), prone, paralysis, lethargy, pinshot, hamstring, unconcious, asleep, single shriveled leg or higher, aeon/retardation (for 1 second), or being off balance/eq - and arguably, guards.

    The new 2H tendon thing might also stop it, not sure.  Specifically to answer your question, Evade is identical for serpent/BM, and ignores rubble/bananas, and every other room-based hindrance ability in existence (pinshot/hamstring are character status-based).

    (if my classlead is approved, it'd also be affected by Dizziness procs and be prevented by weariness or even possibly clumsiness).


    Shirley said:
    Are serpents in a good place right now against other classes, even at low CON? 15 DEX is still great for combat, right?

    Serpents are hard to place on a class matchup matrix, because "how good serpent is" is based more on player skill than any other class.  It can easily range from 100% useless to (IMO) the fastest, most adaptable, and most lethal offense in the game, depending on how good you are, how good your opponent is, and how quickly you can adapt your offense during a fight.

    The speed cap for doublestab is 17, and should be attempted above all other stat priorities.  The exception is if you have a Thoth's fang, which caps at 16 Dex - at which point you should strive for exactly 16 (then focus on other stats) unless for some reason you love trolling knights/BMs with absurd dodge chances (I personally prefer strength over extra dex, because backstab damage scales dramatically with strength).

    On paper, serpent is jaw-droppingly amazing.  However, serpent combat is extremely fast-paced and can take dramatically different turns based on RNG, varying curing priorities, various different forms of active/passive curing, and so on - so decision-making, reaction time, and prediction all have to happen every 1.5 seconds, while simultaneously trying hard to stay alive (they have mediocre damage mitigation, mediocre active curing, no passive curing, and have no form of health regeneration or healing abilities).

    Now, as far as GROUP combat is concerned, serpent is extremely good.  If you only ever used Snipe and Evade, you'd probably have a positive K:D ratio right out of the gates (something that's unheard of for anything other than perhaps monks).
  • If you only ever used Snipe and Evade, you'd probably have a positive K:D ratio right out of the gates

    K:D ratios are always positive. Just not always greater than 1. Sorry, couldn't resist.


    Question: Are there server side queues for curing types? Along the lines of QUEUE ADD HERB EAT GINSENG ?

  • Zuysheam said:
    If you only ever used Snipe and Evade, you'd probably have a positive K:D ratio right out of the gates

    K:D ratios are always positive. Just not always greater than 1. Sorry, couldn't resist.

    Unless K=0.
  • I'm a CoD player, so I think of K:D as a margin more than a ratio... but fair enough.
  • Stuneree said:
    Some questions: One, does serpent/bm evade counter tower rubble/bananas (or any passive hinderance)? If I drop a tower and bananas in a room against a serpent, are they susceptible to the same hindrance as everyone else? Also, I've NEVER used Moon tarot or Devil tarot. What exactly do they do? Or are they basically just for occies?
    Devil is good for jester. You can get super lucky double aeons, stuff like that. Occies have a skill that let's them use Devil way more efficiently. As for moon, my opinion is it's definitely an Occie thing - everything Moon can afflict with Jester has a way to afflict with already, but way faster.
    [2:41:24 AM] Kenway: I bet you smell like evergreen trees and you could wrestle boreal mammals but they'd rather just cuddle you
  • Eld said:
    Zuysheam said:
    If you only ever used Snipe and Evade, you'd probably have a positive K:D ratio right out of the gates

    K:D ratios are always positive. Just not always greater than 1. Sorry, couldn't resist.

    Unless K=0.
    Got me there.

    Question remains, though: Any way to use herb/smoke/potion balances to queue things server-side?
  • Zuysheam said:
    Eld said:
    Zuysheam said:
    If you only ever used Snipe and Evade, you'd probably have a positive K:D ratio right out of the gates

    K:D ratios are always positive. Just not always greater than 1. Sorry, couldn't resist.

    Unless K=0.
    Got me there.

    Question remains, though: Any way to use herb/smoke/potion balances to queue things server-side?
    You can do it through the server-side curing system, with CURING QUEUE ADD <cure> and CURING QUEUE INSERT <position> <cure>. HELP CURING SYSTEM has more details.
  • Ah yea, but that will only allow adding -cures- to the queue. If you want to do something like, wait for herb queue and then eat bloodroot and move a room, you can't do it with the curing queue. That's the type of thing I was interested in.
  • Zuysheam said:
    Ah yea, but that will only allow adding -cures- to the queue. If you want to do something like, wait for herb queue and then eat bloodroot and move a room, you can't do it with the curing queue. That's the type of thing I was interested in.

    You can actually do this, although there is no functionality to do it directly.

    You can pause individual balances by placing all of its afflictions on "ignore" (prio 26).  It's spammy but with a gag trigger you can essentially do exactly what you're asking about - and I do it all the time for various things (like pausing salve balance for heartseed curing).

    It'd be neat if they could add this as a single command, however it really isn't a big enough deal if it'd be a big coding challenge (although I don't see why it'd be more than a single boolean toggle (that the player can set) for each cure type.
  • Maybe I misunderstood you, but the way you described it is not quite the way I meant it. I don't want to wait for normal balance and then cure an affliction (that I could ignore until then) and move. The scenario is that I am already on balance, but I need to cure something (without having the cure balance necessary for that), and I want to cure and move in one go (server-side stacked) as the cure balance becomes available.

    Also, if I ignore an affliction the way you suggest and then un-ignore it on getting a balance, there would be the usual latency delay for the server to receive the un-ignore, which is what I wanted to avoid.

    But from the replies so far, I'll assume that what I'm asking for isn't possible right now.
    Thanks!
  • edited January 2015
    Zuysheam said:
    Maybe I misunderstood you, but the way you described it is not quite the way I meant it. I don't want to wait for normal balance and then cure an affliction (that I could ignore until then) and move. The scenario is that I am already on balance, but I need to cure something (without having the cure balance necessary for that), and I want to cure and move in one go (server-side stacked) as the cure balance becomes available.

    Also, if I ignore an affliction the way you suggest and then un-ignore it on getting a balance, there would be the usual latency delay for the server to receive the un-ignore, which is what I wanted to avoid.

    But from the replies so far, I'll assume that what I'm asking for isn't possible right now.
    Thanks!

    You can "queue add bal eat curare", and you can also queue curing commands (such as setting things on or off of ignore) as well (if you use the in-game alias system to put all of each cure in its own cure type, you can even easily get all of the commands queued despite the 6-command limit.

    Play with the ignore functionality, play with queueing (there is a lot of untapped power in this system in general).  I am confident that I accurately understand what you're wanting to do, and I'm 100% sure that you can do it.  It's a trickier than it could be, but it's a relatively uncommon and minor "tactic" to justify changing/adding things in the curing system interface.

    Example:

    setalias pauseherbs <place all herb cures on ignore>
    setalias unpauseherbs <unpause all herbs>



    In a fight scenario:


    You are off balance.

    You get paralyzed.

    > You want to move east when you get on balance, and want to "queue" the cure.
    pauseherbs


    queue add bal outr curare
    queue add bal eat curare
    queue add bal east
    queue add bal unpauseherbs

    You regain balance.
    You instantly outr curare, eat curare, move east, and regain normal herb eating functionality.


    This would only really be useful for a few afflictions (paralysis, peace, writhes, etc) that prevent attacking or moving.  Thus, you could probably set in-game aliases for each one of these to condense it even further if you're a fan of "chaining commands" as much as I am.

    Refer to my heartseed example (included in SLC btw) that uses exactly this mechanic to pause only salve cures until the magi uses EQ or various other things occur that make it salve to apply a salve without getting heartseeded.  I also use the same functionality to pause restoration afflictions while off eq/balance to fend off vivisect.
  • Scenario:

    I'm on balance.
    I'm off herb balance.
    I have paralysis.
    I want to cure paralysis and move east right away (no latency, no delay between normally sent commands) as I get herb balance.

    Perfect way of doing it would be:
    QUEUE ADD HERB EAT GINSENG - This can be done via CURING QUEUE INSERT 1 GINSENG
    QUEUE ADD HERB EAST - This cannot be done.

    From what you've posted, it looks as if you assume the scenario is this:

    I'm off balance.
    I'm on herb balance.
    I have paralysis.
    I want to cure paralysis as I get balance (and not before) and then move east right away.

    That's not what I'm talking about, though.

    EDIT: Seeing your edit, it appears my assumption about your assumption was correct.
  • As far as I know:
      1)  The queueing and curing systems are entirely independent.
      2)  The curing system allows you to add specific cures to its queue, but not arbitrary commands.
      3)  The queueing system doesn't know about curing balances.
      
    I haven't delved very deeply into either system, so it's possible I'm wrong about one or more of those, but if all three statements are true, I don't see a way to queue arbitrary commands on curing balances server-side.
  • Would have been neat. Thanks.

  • I see what you're saying, and no - you can't do that.  However, what you're describing is the core concept of a "trigger":  "If this happens, do that.".  It's kindof inspiring that we're gotten to a point where people would ask for this, but I think you're kindof discrediting the effectiveness and speed of triggers.

    The amount of delay between curing something and a triggered movement in this case would be a tenth of a second or less (for the average player).  If this is really going to be the difference between life or death for you, I think you've probably got bigger issues than this to worry about.  It's also not that big of a deal since this "issue" exists evenly for all players (except for those with super low latency who won't see it).

    Also, you can always spam.  Oldie but a goodie.  (I even set my key repeat delay time much lower specifically for Achaea).
  • Zuysheam is asking for a very realistic and useful thing, no idea how you couldn't see that from the beginning.... Oh wait, you're ernam
    image
  • edited January 2015
    Jhui said:
    Zuysheam is asking for a very realistic and useful thing, no idea how you couldn't see that from the beginning.... Oh wait, you're ernam
    To be fair, what he's asking for fundamentally is a trigger in terms of function and for most people a trigger would accomplish his goal with pretty acceptable performance.

    The difference is that he wants the trigger to effectively be serverside, which is reasonable for all the same reasons that the game added serverside anything.

    It does raise questions about how being able to put balance-taking commands into the curing queue would interact with the balance queues though.
    (Also: )
  • Dude... Obviously... Why does that have anything to do with what I posted though
    image
  • Ernam said:

    I see what you're saying, and no - you can't do that.  However, what you're describing is the core concept of a "trigger":  "If this happens, do that.".  It's kindof inspiring that we're gotten to a point where people would ask for this, but I think you're kindof discrediting the effectiveness and speed of triggers.

    The amount of delay between curing something and a triggered movement in this case would be a tenth of a second or less (for the average player).  If this is really going to be the difference between life or death for you, I think you've probably got bigger issues than this to worry about.  It's also not that big of a deal since this "issue" exists evenly for all players (except for those with super low latency who won't see it).

    Also, you can always spam.  Oldie but a goodie.  (I even set my key repeat delay time much lower specifically for Achaea).
    Granted, although all of those arguments and alternative solutions could also be made with regards to the (already implemented) balance/equilibrium/class queuing. Perhaps it's an idea for a future addition, if it's not too time-consuming to code. It's not a matter of life or death by any means (except for some borderline situations).
  • A Wild Subjectchange Appears!


    What causes someone to ignore an order/dominate, and how do I fix it?
    image
  • One way might be via the minor trait Blissful Ignorance (small chance).
  • edited January 2015
    Puppetry ordering requires them to not be deaf, doesn't it? Could be misremembering, didn't play Jester for all that long.

  • Cynlael said:
    Puppetry ordering requires them to not be deaf, doesn't it? Could be misremembering, didn't play Jester for all that long.
    I'm fairly certain deafness doesn't stop it (entirely certain that it didn't stop vodun command when I was a shaman).
  • It doesn't require that, only Hierophant does
  • Trying to use the queueing systems for attacks does get tricky because of what Zuysheam describes, e.g. getting proned means your attack will execute before the server-side curing stand, and your queued attack will get dumped if you don't cure paralysis beforehand, etc.. I guess you need client-side handling for all that.
  • Kaedhol said:
    Trying to use the queueing systems for attacks does get tricky because of what Zuysheam describes, e.g. getting proned means your attack will execute before the server-side curing stand, and your queued attack will get dumped if you don't cure paralysis beforehand, etc.. I guess you need client-side handling for all that.
    Just prepend stand to all your attack aliases.
  • Or spam. Honestly, pausing your curing for even a moment so you can cure paralysis, stand, attack is a bad idea against most affliction classes. Cure as per normal and just spam so paralysis does not eat your queue'd command. The only alternative would be if  Queueing was changed to re-queue any command/alias that was eaten by paralysis. Stupidity, amnesia, peace etc can also eat your queue'd commands if you get unlucky with them.

    Put stand into you attack aliases and just do a check for Retardation so you do not do it when you are in Retardation.

    That being said, Aliases and Queues are currently broken in Retardation as the act of adding to the queue or creating the alias will hit retardation, not just the firing of it. I have bugged this but to date no response.

  • I wonder if the queue system could be changed to check if the action is possible before executing? I know SVO queueing does so. Also, the retardation thing is annoying.

  • edited January 2015

    People who use queuing should absolutely use stand in their attack aliases.  There is no reason not to, and completely solves that issue.

    Validating input commands at time of entry doesn't make sense because whether or not you meet the requirements can change (in either direction) in the time between entering the command and regaining balance.

    retardation and other similar issues are already easily handled by proper use of clearqueue, which (partially thanks to me bugging this), ignore things like retardation, stun, sleep. 
  • I see no point why any alias or queue commands should hit retardation. They are system commands, not actual action commands. If you try and enqueue an alias set to stand/kick, it will still over ride the stand with the kick when it fires. I don't see why you should move sluggishly into action when creating an alias or adding it to a queue, or appending it to a queue. It is not like you are gaining an advantage by using queuing in retardation, but it is a hell of a simplification in your offensive system if you can handle things in a consistent way.

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