Quick Combat Questions

Arador

Nemutaur said:

Arador said:

No limb damage on ANY arc.

No, but shatter + leprosy + wait a little targetted arc for missing epseth/epteth into vivi was  the issue.

Still possible in raids if you have another Necromancer, still possible if you have a diadem. So it wasn't fixed, just made more expensive. I don't see how it was an issue though. No one should let you land a dry shatter in 1v1. Also the stated reason was "due to upcoming knight changes".

Wessux

Arador said:

Nemutaur said:

Arador said:

No limb damage on ANY arc.

No, but shatter + leprosy + wait a little targetted arc for missing epseth/epteth into vivi was  the issue.

Still possible in raids if you have another Necromancer, still possible if you have a diadem. So it wasn't fixed, just made more expensive. I don't see how it was an issue though. No one should let you land a dry shatter in 1v1. Also the stated reason was "due to upcoming knight changes".

It's not possible with a diadem.

Jovolo

Leprosy is slower than four seconds with a Diadem? Damn, that was nerfed way too hard.

Arador

Am I bugged then? Cause I get 3.7 with diadem.

Wessux

Arador said:

Am I bugged then? Cause I get 3.7 with diadem.

I tested it once, and I got 4 seconds and said well thats that. I could totally be wrong, but that was what I saw.

Edit: To be clear I borrowed a diadem.

Cooper

~3.7 with a diadem.

Jovolo

Overnerf

Wessux

Jovolo said:

Overnerf

I tried to hit agree, but yeah.....you know.

Arador

Agree might have hurt his feelings. You insensitive clod!

Wessux

Arador said:

Agree might have hurt his feelings. You insensitive clod!

I tried to hit Lol, but yeah......you know.

Jhui

Jovolo said:

Overnerf

Hard to say.  DSL and jabs can be periodically stopped by something like rebounding and restore can be used before 4 limbs are crippled cutting down on the eq cost significantly.

Shatter into leprosy/arc, assuming wait for restoration application, becomes an instant lock down.  If target restores, continue to shatter.  If they tumble, they die.  They can't shield because of broke arms, they can't fly because of gravehands.  It's an instant "You're now under my control until you die or I fuck up" type ability.  Being around 4 seconds makes that margin for error a lottttt smaller for the attacker which is probably about where it should be, no?

Jovolo

If they start a shatter in a position where you can't stop it or leave, and thus I assume halfway through a vivisect strategy, then you don't need to wait for eq to apply restoration because they're off balance. It's the same principle with Sylvan and Sentinel and to a lesser extent Druid. 

I think I misinterpreted what you said. If you wait to apply, you mean no applying before the shatter hits as a preapply? Why assume that? That's a player error in both not anticipating the strategy and/or not preventing the shatter in the first place.

Jhui

Right, i'm saying it's a pretty small margin for error starting from a standstill.

I assume with it's old eq (combined with new targeted arc) people would be able to prep 1 limb and delph/break leprosy/arc to force a restore or die.  At any point that you force a 4 limb restore, you'll generally set yourself up for a shatter war.   With leprosy not at ~4 sec and closer to targetted arc speed, the non-infernal won't win that war.

So, what I'm saying, I imagine it was nerfed so that a single limb != sure death (because of new targetted arc)

Arador

Pre-apply when you see the shatter coming is the simplest way to get out of it if for some reason you can not stop the shatter and you do not have something like arc, cripple etc.

You could also fake the first application but since most will trigger the shatter to do the leprosy, you could just pause salve curing for a moment as well and unpause immediately so you end up curing at least one of the leprosy/arc limbs first. Then return to curing the break while he is off balance for at least 2 seconds from the leprosy (if it was 3 seconds eq time). You should be able to stand before the shatter hits.

Between faking and smart pausing/preapplying you really should not die to this. As it stands now, Leprosy is kind of pointless which is a pity considering Infernal SnB could really use it to make up for the lack of salve affliction speed.

Jhui

I think everyone knows shit can be coded to avoid the most simplistic of strategies. The problem is when it moves the fight entirely into the infernals hands because of the speed. I don't see why it's useless at 4sec eq.. that seems like exactly where it should be to remain useful and not op

Jovolo

What do you mean the speed of it? No one dry shatters successfully other than against noobs

Jhui

The speed being the margin for error you have offensively against some one who applies restoration. The speed of leprosy currently requires that to be right when they apply which is where it should be

Antonius

How exactly does Leprosy function? I know that it cripples limbs, but are the limbs chosen random (if they're not already crippled/broken/mangled)?

Arador

Because you need at least a little room to breathe if things get that close. It does not have to be 3 seconds, but if you are going to be reacting to how the person cures, even with triggers and latency that will just be too close to be helpful.

I mean at 4 seconds you might as well just DSL/DSL off the shatter and get the same effect (with the bonus of being able to break additional limbs if you have them set up) but I don't hear that DSL is OP. Or why not just trample?

You are right that simplistic strategies can be easily avoided and dry shatter is not even something I would call a strategy. So you will have to spend at least a little time getting them prone and disabled for the shatter, in which case you could use DSL/Trample for the same effect. (Provided you have the trait to trample properly)

Arador

@Antonius‌, yes chosen at random from those that are not already shriveled or broken.

Jhui

DSL and trample aren't the same effect.  In the situation that your opponent is prone, trample becomes > leprosry/arc at it's current speed, yes.  That is not a reason to speed up leprosy.  Leprosy is still a solid alternative for people that don't want the trample trait because it's only about .2 slower.  Also leprosy can be used on standing opponents leaving unprepped shatter as a legitimate tactic.

DSL has the problem that all the broken limbs aren't applied at once so a restore can come earlier and not be off eq for 10 seconds.  Also, rebounding can come up making rsl + dsl slower than leprosy/arc.  Also 2 dsls is still similar speed to leprosy/arc.

I don't think anyone wants a faster leprosy/arc because it would widen the margin for error significantly for the infernal where they may only need 1 break to put someone completely on their heels with restore/stop apply loops while the infernal goes into an endless shatter loop until eventually the kill is guaranteed off of 1 limb break.

Arador

That 0.2 can mean the difference between viable and pointless for anyone outside the US. Unprepped shatter or shatter on a standing opponent is really not a strategy I would consider worthwhile.

Jhui

Yea but you might if leprosy were sped up

Makarios

Well, we have to assume that people are useing the queue system when setting balance times now. Being outside the US shouldn't be a factor when following up an attack, if that's what you mean.

Personally, I'm pretty happy with where leprosy is given the existence of targeted arc. Its not really a core part of the offense, but has situational uses. Feel free to file a classlead though if you have a different perspective there. Let's try to keep this clear for questions, in the meantime!

Shirley

Are serpents in a good place right now against other classes, even at low CON? 15 DEX is still great for combat, right?

Wessux

I'm on Jhui's side for this.

Stuneree

Some questions: One, does serpent/bm evade counter tower rubble/bananas (or any passive hinderance)? If I drop a tower and bananas in a room against a serpent, are they susceptible to the same hindrance as everyone else? Also, I've NEVER used Moon tarot or Devil tarot. What exactly do they do? Or are they basically just for occies?

Amranu

Evade ignores all exit hindrance, except doors when attempting to exit a room.

Eld

Yes, evade bypasses rubble/bananas, and most (all? can't think of any it doesn't) other roomwide hindrances. Moon gives a random mental affliction. I _think_ Devil has a chance to throw an extra card from a small pool when you throw one, not sure on the mechanics there.

Stuneree

Hrm, I can't remember the random cards. Well thanks for the answers:)