Quick Combat Questions

Aerek

Antonius said:

Aerek said:

DWB is also very good, you can pursue Pulp and Vivisect simultaneously, opting which one to go for at the last minute; it takes a little more effort and know-how than DWC.

Are forged morningstars really that slow? With level two/three morningstars the timing on Pulp really isn't close at all, so the route should become obvious pretty quickly based on what they apply to.

Not sure what you mean. No, I don't think forged stars are too slow, they're fast enough to Pulp fine, and yes, you can decide between Pulp/Vivisect pretty quickly based on what they apply to. Are you referring to my 'effort and know-how' remark? That's just because controlling DWB's multi-limb/expend combos and managing its Momentum requirements vs hindering and rebounding is more complex than DSL's linear leg, leg, Impale/arm?, Disembowel/Vivisect fork.

Anedhel said:

I will stipulate that Infernal DSB doesn't scare me much, particularly not from unartied fighters, since 15 + 1 (trait) + 2 (fury) is, I think, the highest you can get to (19 with Jera, which anyone can nab, I suppose) without arties (not counting minerals and favours, but those are very circumstantial). 18-strength DSBs hurt (~85%, from Antonius' table, which I -think- is still accurate), but they're not lethal unless you have a lot of pre-damage stuck, since the impale time guarantees at least one sip and usually one moss eat before DSB unless you're crazy good at timing it carefully. 

People say this, but everyone I have ever killed with Disembowel in my life, I have killed with 18 STR. In my Paladin days, I had 17. An 85% DSB means they need to be missing 15% health when it lands, and that's not "a lot". The Impale, itself, does like 10-12% damage, plus the the leg breaks before it, and recall that Impale randomly ticks for damage, as well. They get a sip/moss in there, but really all you have to do is make sure they aren't at full health when you break the first leg. 1-3 DSLs is usually enough, or a single Hugalaz rune, and you should kill anyone who isn't an obvious outlier. (Omni-artefacted, prone healing abilities, Algiz/Truefavour, etc)

Saying you need 18+ STR before Disembowel is lethal is kinda like saying "Don't start fighting until you're Dragon." 19 STR, much like Dragon-level health, is obviously a nice luxury, but not required at all.

Anedhel

Well, Runie gets the torso damage buff, so they get help there, 18str DSBs from a runie are pretty deadly. 

I've fought Paladins/Runies a lot, and I've tanked DSBs of 18 and 19 str from either class, and I only had level 2 arties and nothing to reduce unblockable damage like scales/algiz. Sip ring bonus plus passive healing (revit or regen rings or uruz, etc.) means that a sip can actually be a pretty big difference. 

Runie has a definite advantage in hugalaz, which keeps hitting while the target's impaled, but Infernal's passive damage is pretty lackluster. Impale's decent damage, and it's certainly at its best if you can impale right after they've sipped (and if they're sensitive for the impale, all the better, though that's unlikely if you're trying to keep your vivisect-option open), but targeted DSLs from Infernals have never particularly hurt very much. Like I said, I've never had any reason to be afraid of an Infernal's DSB since Weaponmastery came out (I recognize there aren't many Infernals with crazy strength out there, though, which is why I'm only pointing at unartied!). 

With revit down, a level 2 regen ring, a boar, a level 2 sip ring, I've never had to worry about DSBs from Paladins/Infernals at under 19 strength, or Runies under 18 strength (that rune boost is ouchy!). To whit, I think I've pissed a few people off by just tanking it and standing up and spamming hands afterwards! 

Keep in mind: You can probably kill anyone unartied that isn't a runie or a serpent with an under-19 strength DSB more-or-less easily, I concede that. But by 'viable,' I generally assume people to mean 'able to compete,' and the truth is most people in the mid-tier and up will have at least -some- measure of defensive artefacts. 

Antonius

Aerek said:

Antonius said:

Aerek said:

DWB is also very good, you can pursue Pulp and Vivisect simultaneously, opting which one to go for at the last minute; it takes a little more effort and know-how than DWC.

Are forged morningstars really that slow? With level two/three morningstars the timing on Pulp really isn't close at all, so the route should become obvious pretty quickly based on what they apply to.

Not sure what you mean. No, I don't think forged stars are too slow, they're fast enough to Pulp fine, and yes, you can decide between Pulp/Vivisect pretty quickly based on what they apply to. Are you referring to my 'effort and know-how' remark? That's just because controlling DWB's multi-limb/expend combos and managing its Momentum requirements vs hindering and rebounding is more complex than DSL's linear leg, leg, Impale/arm?, Disembowel/Vivisect fork.

Looking at it again I think I just misread your original comment. I thought it said "at the last second", as in having to make a split second decision on Pulp vs Vivisect, but it says "at the last minute", which I assume just means deciding once you've done the prep based on what they apply to when you start breaking things.

Antonius

Anedhel said:

Keep in mind: You can probably kill anyone unartied that isn't a runie or a serpent

This reminds me that I still need to do testing on this. I think there's a lot more abilities that potentially reduce disembowel damage than people think (i.e. not just Algiz and Scales).

Sena

Antonius said:

This reminds me that I still need to do testing on this. I think there's a lot more abilities that potentially reduce disembowel damage than people think (i.e. not just Algiz and Scales).

Voicecraft tune is basically the same as scales. Other than algiz/scales/tune/numb/apathy I don't know of anything that will reduce disembowel.

Antonius

Tune was one of the things I was thinking of, yeah. Occultist's Chaos Orb is temporary resistance to all damage in the region of 15% when detonated, if I recall correctly. I feel like there's a couple of other things that I'm forgetting, but I may just be thinking of Vigour which allows disembowel to be survived more easily even if it doesn't reduce the actual damage.

Anedhel

Well, favourshields, too.

Antonius

They're (technically) available to everybody, but also not something you can guarantee on having or that everybody of a given class is going to always have, so I tend to just ignore them.

Farrah

I would definitely not count on an 18 str, non-runewardwn dsb if you want to be able to kill -everyone-. Might be fine against certain classes/lower tiers/unartied, but I could probably afk through the attempts. Regen, high sips, active heals, defenses that resist dsb damage can all make that seem really ineffective.

I'm also not convinced infernal's "unstoppable dsb" is an unstoppable -torso- dsb. Can you kill as DWC infernal? Sure. Is it super duper strong? No. I would think DWB and 2h are stronger, with the obvious typical "requires momentum" weakness of 2h.

I'm not sure why 2h can't vivisect, @Aerek? Seems like the most secure vivisect if you can get the fractures.

Armali

If you can get the fractures. It's a momentum class.

Aerek

A sure-fire Vivisect would require 10 fractures: 6 leg and 4 arm. 1) You're highly unlikely to build that many against anyone with even an inkling of defensive awareness. 2) Even if they let you, anyone except the most artefacted of targets is probably going to die to damage before you get there. All of the other 2H Vivisect avenues I can think of just prey on ignorance. You'll kill someone with a clever Shrivel/Arc once if they're not expecting it, but all those tricks are easily shut down if the target knows about them. I didn't say 2H couldn't Vivisect, I just put it behind DWC and DWB in terms of effectiveness, since those styles have setups that mesh readily with it.

And I'd say 'unstoppable' DWC Infernal Disembowel can include torso. If you automatically cure torso when broken (or on leg break), you'll dodge the Disembowel, but that can be abused to force the restore early and Vivisect afterward. (Wessux did, often) There's plenty of room for error; the Infernal would have to correctly predict your curing or flawlessly react to it in real-time, but if I did know how you cured in a given instance, I'm pretty confident I could pin you down and Vivisect you one way or another -or- guarantee a torso DSB. I don't see a way to consistently avoid both that the Infernal can't exploit if he's perfect.

Someone gift me 2000cr so I can just go Infernal already.

Estaro

@aerek you can come be my mentor and teach me how to infernal 

I went DWB, currently using flails for hunting until I can trans at least weapon mastery and see if I can get morningstars. How bad is the hinder from other classes? Will I be locked before I can even hit twice? Is just flails viable or do you need both? Should I spec for all strength? I'm currently a Xoran with no traits/race spec yet.

Farrah

Apply restoration to torso, fly. Land when cured. Gg.

Dunn

I would still just play chicken with a medium strength DSB and cure vivisect normally.  It ain't no runy DSB and very little passive damage. 

Exelethril

Farrah said:

I would definitely not count on an 18 str, non-runewardwn dsb if you want to be able to kill -everyone-. Might be fine against certain classes/lower tiers/unartied, but I could probably afk through the attempts. Regen, high sips, active heals, defenses that resist dsb damage can all make that seem really ineffective.

SnB Lagua not working = 1 hour priest vs runewarden fight, fun times 

But yep, I don't really think it's possible to kill artied + high tier with 18-20 str non-runewarden dsbs without at least focuslock momentum for delayed sip. Not sure about the damage from evil-version Purity though

Aerek

Estaro said:

@aerek you can come be my mentor and teach me how to infernal 

I went DWB, currently using flails for hunting until I can trans at least weapon mastery and see if I can get morningstars. How bad is the hinder from other classes? Will I be locked before I can even hit twice? Is just flails viable or do you need both? Should I spec for all strength? I'm currently a Xoran with no traits/race spec yet.

Hindrance is DWB's main issue, yeah. You don't get any of your own, especially now that 1 damaged arm doesn't stop 90% of classes from attacking, and it can be hard to build momentum through the worst paralysis/clumsiness-spamming offenders. Serpent/Apostate/Alchemist are not fun, but it's not insurmountable. Flails are good for damage and can mangle limbs easy, but you'll need 'stars for Pulp or Vivisect. You should probably spec strength if you want to get the most out of your flails and Assaults.

Farrah said:

Apply restoration to torso, fly. Land when cured. Gg.

That could be true now that GH doesn't hit flying. Before, flying was stopped 33% of the time, and when you escape I don't lose my leg prep. Just had to prep torso and try again until you failed or didn't react fast enough.

Anedhel

Afaik purity and taint do the same damage, but I could be wrong on that! Purity/taint + arc as a finisher is definitely really strong, though. Infernal has a slight advantage there, if the target applies to arms/touches tree before curing the second resto leg or something similar, which guarantees they're still prone (and so can't shield) after the DSB, which is pretty great!

ETA: I definitely like DWB more for Infernal, even though the lack of hinder might might it a pain in the ass against certain classes. 

Antonius

Before I forget again, have some updated (as of whenever I did the testing) disembowel numbers on a target with a maximum health of 6933. Since I got complaints about the formatting last time these have been rounded to two decimal places by Excel first.

STRENGTH	L0 DAMAGE	% OF MAX	% INCREASE	L1 DAMAGE	% OF MAX	% INCREASE	% INCREASE OVER L0	L1 + LAGUA	% OF MAX	% INCREASE	% DIFF WITH LAGUA
10	1934	27.9		3286	47.4		1.7	3616	52.16		10.04
11	2082	30.03	2.13	3538	51.03	3.63	1.7	3892	56.14	3.98	10.01
12	2304	33.23	3.2	3916	56.48	5.45	1.7	4306	62.11	5.97	9.97
13	2452	35.37	2.14	4170	60.15	3.67	1.7	4586	66.15	4.04	9.98
14	2674	38.57	3.2	4546	65.57	5.42	1.7	5002	72.15	6	10.04
15	2824	40.73	2.16	4802	69.26	3.69	1.7	5280	76.16	4.01	9.96
16	3046	43.93	3.2	5178	74.69	5.43	1.7	5696	82.16	6	10
17	3194	46.07	2.14	5430	78.32	3.63	1.7	5972	86.14	3.98	9.98
18	3416	49.27	3.2	5806	83.74	5.42	1.7	6386	92.11	5.97	10
19	3564	51.41	2.14	6062	87.44	3.7	1.7	6668	96.18	4.07	10
20	3786	54.61	3.2	6438	92.86	5.42	1.7	6933	100	3.82	7.69
21	3936	56.77	2.16	6692	96.52	3.66	1.7	6933	100	0	3.61
22	4160	60	3.23	6933	100	3.48	1.67	6933	100	0	0
23	4306	62.11	2.11	6933	100	0	1.61	6933	100	0	0
24	4530	65.34	3.23	6933	100	0	1.53	6933	100	0	0

Exelethril

Would you be willing to do one with resistances like dragon scales/Algiz?

Shirszae

The road to 20STR is a long an expensive one. 

Aegoth

@Antonius, is there some way you can make the headers less sloppy and unreadable?

Exelethril

Thé titres are contained within the width of each column, it's fine.

Aegoth

You must be using a gigantic computer screen, then, because that's just not the case

Szanthax

I just copy/pasted from his post into excel... very readable..

I added a space between each columno..

STRENGTH		L0 DAMAGE		% OF MAX		% INCREASE		L1 DAMAGE		% OF MAX		% INCREASE		% INCREASE OVER L0		L1 + LAGUA		% OF MAX		% INCREASE		% DIFF WITH LAGUA
10		1934		27.9				3286		47.4				1.7		3616		52.16				10.04
11		2082		30.03		2.13		3538		51.03		3.63		1.7		3892		56.14		3.98		10.01
12		2304		33.23		3.2		3916		56.48		5.45		1.7		4306		62.11		5.97		9.97
13		2452		35.37		2.14		4170		60.15		3.67		1.7		4586		66.15		4.04		9.98
14		2674		38.57		3.2		4546		65.57		5.42		1.7		5002		72.15		6		10.04
15		2824		40.73		2.16		4802		69.26		3.69		1.7		5280		76.16		4.01		9.96
16		3046		43.93		3.2		5178		74.69		5.43		1.7		5696		82.16		6		10
17		3194		46.07		2.14		5430		78.32		3.63		1.7		5972		86.14		3.98		9.98
18		3416		49.27		3.2		5806		83.74		5.42		1.7		6386		92.11		5.97		10
19		3564		51.41		2.14		6062		87.44		3.7		1.7		6668		96.18		4.07		10
20		3786		54.61		3.2		6438		92.86		5.42		1.7		6933		100		3.82		7.69
21		3936		56.77		2.16		6692		96.52		3.66		1.7		6933		100		0		3.61
22		4160		60		3.23		6933		100		3.48		1.67		6933		100		0		0
23		4306		62.11		2.11		6933		100		0		1.61		6933		100		0		0
24		4530		65.34		3.23		6933		100		0		1.53		6933		100		0		0

Antonius

Shirszae said:

The road to 20STR is a long an expensive one. 

Well, you did pick one of the worst races for strength. Not so bad for Troll/Xoran/Satyr Runewardens, only need level one gauntlets to hit 20 strength. Though aren't you also two-handed? If you've got the leg fractures to devastate into a torso disembowel, you probably don't need to worry about them being at or near full health.

@Aegoth Sorry. Headers could have been better, but the forums are fucking garbage. It looked okay when writing the post but then it gets squished together when you actually post it. It's not totally awful on my monitor but it's horrendous on my phone.

@Exelethril I probably won't do the full strength ranges, but I can at some point do some tests to see exactly how scales interacts with disembowel damage. It should just be a straight 10% reduction after the damage is calculated, though, so multiplying the percentages by 0.9 should be reasonably accurate. Dragon armour is just cutting/blunt resistance so doesn't affect disembowel at all (the results I just posted were from testing on a dragon, and matched up pretty closely with my previous results).

Proficy

Shirszae said:

The road to 20STR is a long an expensive one. 

All knights have fury.. so infernals base is 17, runnies get to 18 and paladins get to 19.. without any arties at all...  that damage increase is to much in my opinion
If your target is somehow at 100% hp when you do the level 1 torso damage Dsb... i think they deserve to live

Anedhel

Infernal's base is actually 18 (15 (base) + 1 (trait) + 2 (fury)).

ETA: Add 1 to Runewarden and Paladin, respectively.

Shirszae

Sure, if you are a troll or something its pretty cheap. But:

Atavian Exemplar : 13 (base) + 1 (trait) + 2 (fury) + 1 (jera)

the only thing I am missing is the race change dagger, I think. 

Anedhel

Atavian and Siren are terrible for knight, yeah. On the plus side, free flying, so  

Antonius

Ring of flying is cheaper than level one gauntlets, though...