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Comments
Thurisaz is blunt damage, and affected by int and collar.
I'm not new to Alchemist. I lock down defensive at 3-4 tempers of any kind, though that means I'm on the defensive early and often. I prio ginger when behind shields, but I alternate that prio to prevent getting locked. I don't know any way to hinder an Alchemist, as they only need 1 arm to attack and clumsiness doesn't bother them. I know when to Fitness, even pre-lock, and lately I've been trying out Blademaster, so I have Alleviate if I can't Fitness. I don't spam movement into homunculi, and wait for balance to try again. I have seen people spam shield for long periods to shut down the Alchemist, but when I do this, it just buys time, I don't actually make progress curing down.
I just don't see an out, here. In all the cases I've fought a competent Alchemist lately, I rely on them to make a mistake so I can survive. If they trigger/queue Copper and never hit shield, if they have a working affliction tracker and never send the wrong affs, and if they auto-walk to chase on the rare opportunity I do escape, then I can't think of any other tools in my toolbox that can beat that.
So what trade secret am I missing, or it it just understood that we don't fight Alchemists anymore?
edit; Serpent can go toe-to-toe if they have an arti dirk. Without one is pretty RNG-based though, or as you say, reliant on them to make a mistake (which is hard to do once they figure out the Alchemist 'tricks'). - If you're someone Proficy doesn't enjoy annoying the hell out of, you could likely get him to spar you a bunch to work things out, since he's probably the best Alchemist right now, after working out all the terror things you can do with Alchemist. (Seragorn's words there)
Biggest saving grace against people that don't automate Alchie is shield as that can block truewrack on inundate phlegmatic. That being said these are more or less your only options, out momentuming Alchemist in its current form is essentially impossible if your class is affected by clumsiness, because they can give and stick both clumsiness and lethargy very quickly and very easily and then begin to spam para to keep you permanently behind, while being unaffected by clumsiness themselves. Additionally, they are able to build momentum against full shield spam. Regardless of your class, or the hinder they've used against you, at a certain number of tempers of phlegmatic maintaining an offense is suicidal, but playing defensively is effectively gambling as is running. Essentially, if you have fitness you can no longer maintain an offense against them once they have a lock afflict stuck + 6 phlegmatic, or 2 lock afflicts + 4 phlegmatic or they can truelock you on one balance. Unfortunately avoiding this is extremely difficult because of the aforementioned lack of hinder against their offense, their insane hinder as well as the highest balance:herb balance to cure affliction ratio in the game for basic attacks (2:1 for temper/wrack, even larger for temper/truewrack) without even accounting for homunculus mercury which increases herb balance by 1 second on next eat, and is given once every 8 seconds.
The intended method to survive them used to be to eat multiple antimony in a row as that would let you reduce tempers, but that was completely removed instead of toned down which was imo a mistake without nerfs to other parts of the class. Your only option to survive right now is essentially to hope they don't automate shield detection and time it so they hit shield on inundate.
When in doubt, shield forces them to single aff you.
1) Lethargy can't be 'easily' given. They have to waste phlegmatic stacks and inundate to give you it. If they do this, you should already be able to win to be honest, because they're gonna waste so much time by doing that, and set themselves behind rather early.
2) They can't 'build full offence' against shielding, given that copper is about as long balance as truewracking (can only single wrack with copper). Even with a diadem it's still not possible to do what you're suggesting.
3) 4 phlegmatic + 2 affs is not a true lock, since 4 phlegmatic only gives lethargy/anorexia. Which means one aff is gonna be missing against a huge majority of classes.
asthma/imp stuck with 4 = ano/asthma/imp + whatever other two (slickness/para = you can fitness/bloodboil/salt/shrug)
asthma/slick stuck with 4 = ano/asthma/slick + whatever other two (imp/para = same as the above)
Truewracking para additionally requires 2 sanguine stacks, not truewracking para means you're gonna be able to move away (potentially only, of course, but still), not truewracking para also means tree is usable.
Etc etc.
Homunc mercury also increases herb bal to 2s, not increasing it a full second. temper+aff is 1.55s, or 1.35(ish) against an aready tempered humour, temper+truewrack is 2.6s (with nimble) - yes it's good, but not really one of the 'op' things about Alchemist.
In saying this, no I'm not saying Alchemist is fine. Just correcting misinformation- the class is absurdly strong 1v1 and def needs some sort of tuning. - Pretty much what Dunn said, slow prepping is your friend vs Alchemist.
PS. Both your classes, Amranu, counter Alchemist pretty damn easily.
Also lol at countering Alchemist "pretty easily". No class in this game, besides perhaps Serpent counters Alchemist "pretty easily"
Incorrect, this takes at most three attacks (with lethargy being stuck on the third) and only takes one temper of phlegmatic and an inundate, any set back is worth the massive hindrance that is lethargy against people not easily able to run against them
- Wrong. a) You can't combo inundate/temper. b) Lethargy takes two levels of phlegmatic to get off. I'm not sure you're aware, but inundate removes all levels of fluids in the humour, which means they have to start over from scratch. Lethargy will be cured by the time you hit them again, bud. It also takes two seconds of humour balance to inundate, which means they're not gonna be able to temper when they get balance back (unless they truewrack inundate, which also isn't going to work in their favour, without any other afflictions/humours to work with).
Second point-
2.2 seconds with diadem, 2.4 without, literally JUST tested this, at the time of writing this post. Not fast enough to keep up offence, you're also assuming they have balance to copper the MOMENT you touch shield, which is basically never ever going to be the case.
Third point-
Unsurprisingly, you're wrong here as well. Shriek won't equal a lock anymore, with increased truewrack balance times. Every. Single. Time. You will get focus bal back 0.1-0.25s before the alchemist gets balance back. With serverside, this is enough time to cure out of the inundate. Again, I've tested this quite extensively. You're also never going to have paralysis on the inundate, unless you're curing incorrectly, or they truewrack it.
Fourth-
Suit yourself, bud. Every single one of my alchemist logs say the exact opposite of this.
Finally, just to clear up your most common misconception thus far.
Indunate phlegmatic affs are as follows:
@2 = Lethargy, @4 = Anorexia, @6 = Slickness, @8 = Weariness.
--
Your classes are as follows:
Magi. Alch is countered -hard- by heavy damage. Magi capitalises on damage, via timeflux (I think this is the salve-slowing thing, I get the two mixed up sometimes). After four-five rounds, they're going to end up having to run or risk getting killed, due to constantly having double limbs broken, due to the nature of nimble Magi atm. There's also the fact you only need 4 strikes to break a limb (maybe 5? it's been a while since I've thoroughly played Magi), so you can break leg+prone virtually whenever you want to while timefluxed, after a few rounds, and that will cancel out a -significant -portion of their momentum. GG. God help the Alch, if they have double prepped legs.
Shaman. Lol, impatience easy to stick, you also para much faster than they do. Go get some tips from Khel, I'm sure he'll help you in that department. Impatience stick = easy peace, locking an alchemist out for a few rounds, unless they switch to cure peace, in which case you just hit them with swiftcurse paralysis and swiftcurse peace again. Not to mention how mana hungry an Alchemist is, which works strongly in your favour.
Do you even learn your class properly? Or do you just find 1 cheese strat and stick with it, and whine when it doesn't work anymore?
Lethargy requires only one phlegmatic temper, not 2. And I'm perfectly aware of the effects of inundate, but frankly one temper -> lethargy is worth it. Also if you're truewracking when you inundate 2 seconds temper balance is fine as you'll have balance back for next attack, and I don't see how you can think not truewracking won't work in your favour, as I pointed out with maths earlier truewracking is -more- efficient than straight wracking. Whereas temper/wrack gives you 3.2 seconds of herb balance in afflictions for 1.6 seconds balance (assuming you temper properly, clearly) truewrack gives you 4.8 seconds of afflictions for only .9 seconds longer balance.
2.2 with and 2.4 without doesn't even make sense, diadem is 15% not 8.333%, it's 2.1 w/ diadem.
Shriek is inconsistent with quick-witted, but with nimble it seems to be relatively consistent however, and Proficy uses it to complete locks on me all the time, so whatever your tests show you're not correct here and shriek can absolutely be used to close out a lock.
I'm not going to discuss my class with you, it's clear despite your testing you don't know your own particularly well in practice.
- Sticking
lethargy with low-level inundates is a thing,
because that kills my offense and/or slows down shielding considerably,
both of which are good for the Alkie. As long as they can maintain their
aff momentum to keep it there, I don't call that a "waste" of
phelgmatic, I call that an "investment". They know I'm not going to be
one of their quick locks, but know I can't get away from them easily, so
burning a phlegm temper at the start can be a worthwhile sacrifice, especially
if they're actually going for Sang/Chol kills instead of Phlegm.
- They
can't "build" their offense through shield, but they can maintain what
they have through my shielding on loop, and if I'm swapping prios to try
and cure down tempers (Of course I am, that's why I'm shielding) then
they can either maintain their tempers if I don't eat ginger, or lock me
slowly if I do prio ginger, or get me close enough that I blow
Fitness/Alleviate to avoid a lock which means I can't shield again for a
moment, and their offense picks back up.
- 4
Phlegm+Shriek+Wrack/Twrack can seal a lock if they have a few lock affs
stuck on you already, or if you've already blown Fitness and are on your
cooldown, which are both common when I'm trying to cure down tempers.
We'll see if his tips work, but he's not wrong about much in there, just a slip here and there.@Dunn Pretty harsh if Raido is the other "best" option. Do you think the Apostate treatment would be justified? Make clumsiness hit their Wracks/Twracks? Or a hit to Homunculus block? It seriously was like 60% last time I tested it with 100 attempts.
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@Aerek when you were in DWC I was slow prepped and prevented pursue by wunjo nairat. BM does not have quite the tools needed against Alchie compared to DWC, after the evade change, but BM is equally legendarily strong against a lot of classes. You made me work a lot harder in DWC.
Homun block rate can be lowered at low fluid levels but should scale equally well with fluid levels stacking up. People are supposed to be able to run after a failed inundate, or before it gets bad. People should try very hard or get punished over attempts to run when fluids are stacked, cos that's the only way Alchie is pressuring for a kill, and the kill path an Alchie chooses is generally glaring.
This should allow a well timed shield to stop a full killing combo (educe copper or truewrack won't go through), and then you can run when fluids are near zero to heal up. "Well timed" is split second, and defense against most other classes' kill sequence is often split second too, so I think it's appropriate.
Edit - I'm not a newbie anymore and the content in the above posts are part of the reason I don't take part in combat any more.
For instance, this is the numbers section for Ryu, the 'basic' character of street fighter 4 which is, in turn, the most popular current fighting game: http://wiki.shoryuken.com/Ultra_Street_Fighter_IV/Ryu#Frame_Data
If you can decipher that with no previous experience I'd be very surprised.
Every competitive game has things like that, basically. Considering several of the most popular games in the world are competitive I doubt high-level combat arguments involving tenths of a second is going to scare significant numbers off.
I just eat a lot of ginger or something when I meet them, and I thought they were just walking tuns.
Pretend alchemists do not exist and enjoy the rest of your stay in achaea.
Eh. Cynlael is right. Shriek focus balance knock is shorter than truewrack balance so usually shriek/truewrack fails and they focus before you regain balance to impatience. It used to be different and work all the time, but truewrack balance was increased and changed that. This is, of course, subject to ping (serverside balance variations on both truewrack and focus, even if you don't use client-side curing at all), so it works sometimes. However, I've found it fails more often than not - so much that I'd rather just stick impatience every time and not waste inundate on a potential shriek lock. I'd probably rather just change shriek altogether to be if undeaf then prone and no focus balance knock.
Mercury increases herb balance by 50%, which is approximately from 1.6 to 2.4, so you were close, but not exactly right. It doesn't increase by a full second. Again, balance variations mean timestamps will show it at 2.5 sometimes, and at 2.2 or 2.3 sometimes.
Using lethargy not only takes two attacks (4 if they tree), but also means you're going 2-4 attacks without making any temper progress. It's really not usually worth it. I used it a lot when I was alting alch to mess around with it, but it's a pretty big break from your offense. Though, clumsy is fine for hinder, and paralysis.
As for alchemist affliction rate, it's just hard to compare tempers side by side with afflictions. Yes, they're cured like afflictions, but their worth is technically less. If you're going for a phlegmatic lock, for example, 2 tempers = 1 affliction, so 1 temper is only worth .5 afflictions in that sense, which means alchemist gives 2.5 afflictions at 2.5 seconds, or an affliction per second, which is a pretty typical affliction rate. Obviously, again, they function completely differently overall, though, since they give everything at once rather than over time.
Ultimately, alchemist lock speed is comparable to (and in some cases slower than) other lock classes. An artied serpent, for example, can generally lock in 3-5 dstabs. Apostate locks in 6ish deadeyes. This is obviously not including complications, but those apply to all classes.
I know I wouldn't choose alchemist as my class if I was aiming to beat as many people as possible, either, as it has some glaring weaknesses that some but not all other classes have (inability to prone before phoenix, inability to stop pathfinder/bound over icewall, etc.).
It's a solid class, but I think you grossly overestimate it because you fight one literally 15 times per day and it's the only thing on your mind.
As BM just ham + bound. Knight keep wunjo/nairat. Don't bother with dsb unless snb, not feasible.
I don't find alchemist entertaining to fight, so I usually avoid the match. Consider Serpent annihilates alchemist and has pin evade. Although requiring stupidity as a lock aff is silly.
Or could make wrack affected by clumsy. Some matchups are rough even for current alch though and might be too bad with no para wrack to hinder.
Alternatively, make para wrack just unaffected by the sanguine wrack balance bonus.
Don't think paralysis spam is a problem since it is meant to be "paralysing", and it's shared across many classes. Momentum classes will fight for control of the momentum while prep classes can generally slow prep.
Afflictions isn't really the focus of Alchie (though it's potent), it's more of a decoy (or plan
It's just different. You get consistently pressured since the start against an Alchie or Occie. Against Shaman, you get to bully them hard first, but when they execute the doll the pressure is sudden. Serps bursts in few dstabs.
All are deadly but I know the feeling about fighting an alchie, facing consistent pressure entire fight, the moment you leave, you cure down quicker than you could a 2H. A good 2H also has a quicker kill pull before an alchie reaches 8. But yeah it's not entertaining to fight against an alchie, and probably this makes everyone feel the OPness of alchie, but there are tough matchups too, not any different than other classes.
Just 2cents. I am not sure if this is unbalanced or balanced, but I think it's the many flavors of the classes.
Making wrack affected by clumsiness I think would be a mitigating step that doesn't remove anything from Alchemists' toolkit. But I will readily admit that while clumsiness hindrance would be a godsend for Knights, depending on how much they struggle with classes with better hindrance, (Apostates, Serpents, others?) there's a possibility that adding clumsiness on top might make fighting those classes futile.
Also I tested Homunculus block again, two sets of 150 movement attempts, and it really is hovering around a 66%-70% block rate. (I assume 66% because it's a logical value) Personally, I feel like that shit's gotta go. I completely understand that if it's too easy to escape, Alkies are neutered, but Priests and Occultists get on just fine with 33%. Mobile 66% block is ridiculous.
I was also thinking maybe if paralysis was removed entirely, something interesting could be done with phleg/melancholic passives, which seem useless currently (phleg increases smoke bal -sometimes- and alchies have... one smoke aff), and the new passives could make up for it. For example, you can't use leap/evade/bound/etc while melan is tempered, like hamstring except normal movement is fine. This replaces para as a necessity for stopping those. Make temper passives work at 1 temper again and require choleric basically for countering tree. Then phleg passive can provide some kind of light hinder in place of para, such as lethargy-like effect. Maybe replace inundate lethargy with new aff.
Would add more strategy on both sides I think.
Really not much pressure to force them to cure other affs over tempers often.
Evade/bound are only luxuries anyway.
Does Antimony/Ginger randomly hit a humour, or is it a set progression? If either of those two had grabbed a choleric, he would have had to re-temper right?
Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
Regarding making paralysis less of a thing for Alchemists, why not swap in lethargy over paralysis in the sanguine afflictions, remove the random sanguine temper restriction for that afflict and add paralysis in place of lethargy to inundate phlegmatic?