Synaptic lock

Makarios

Since I've seen this come up a couple of times in the thread, curing system manipulation commands do not show up on sapience, that was changed in a classlead last year.

Morthif

does MIND LISTEN show incoming tells/says/etc or outgoing from the target?

Klendathu

Makarios said:

Since I've seen this come up a couple of times in the thread, curing system manipulation commands do not show up on sapience, that was changed in a classlead last year.

How dare you come in here with your facts? Hyperbole or get out.

(Luvs you Mak!)

Frederich

Kickass Makarios. Not at a computer right now, but still reading up on all this. If curing manipulation is out, that is one less thing to worry about, albeit still having it all having issues overall. 

I guess mostly at this point it's just that there is a certain divide of things that are ooc in nature being affected by it. Being able to set a clan as purely Ooc and not have it show up on Sapience would be a decent enough start on that, and would probably help hash things out in the future for such cases. (Because we all know Ooc clans are a thing. They shouldn't be subject to being listened in on by an IC mechanic lest we just move all that shit to discord) 

Siduri

Daeir said:

Morthif said:

does MIND LISTEN show incoming tells/says/etc or outgoing from the target?

No, it displays only says in the room of the person you are locked to, and it does so with no identification as to who's speaking. You see:

You hear a telepathic echo: Morthif smells like farts.

That's it.

It's almost completely useless in situations where it isn't just two people in the room.

Oh my. And -anyone- could say that.

Khel

Factional discord groups for raid planning/sensitive RP are clearly the solution.

On a more serious note, unstoppable and (nearly) undetectable spying with no downsides other than wp drain seems really, really broken. A serpent has to evade physical security/eye sigils/guards/doors/etc. Just to do what a monk with a master card can? And the monk could be in a room of their choice for the spying too. There's not really a way to see it either, other than spamming fullsense and hoping you have more stacked shrouds on your side or using the new font power randomly?

Krypton

Every MoS should be a Synaptic LockMonk surveilling their citizens for signs of possible treason.

No more Serial Oathbreaker Atalkezes.

Taryius

Guys, Guys, Guys. 

Synaptic Lock isn't broken because they added a new font power so we can sense veiled people, Duh. 

Draqoom

Sapience is pretty powerful but it's not nearly as bad as this thread is making it out to be. I sapience pretty regularly because, well, I can. Lots of garbage background commands (the ocd ones). You do see everything someone types, but that's it. No real context there. Used to be horrendus when you could see prio swaps and stuff from serverside, but like @Makarios said that was changed a while ago. Sapience and listen together are a thing for spying and I've been spying with Sapience and listen for a really, really long time. It's always been good and this new artefact hasn't changed that it was always good, just changed how aware people are it's happening I guess? In my testing of it, I didn't really see that much of a difference but I had already been cloaking, splitting the mind and using the willpower amulet and meditating and breaking and relocking to keep up on the drain and breaks. Locking still drains willpower pretty good so the idea of a long, sustained 'spying' isn't really a thing unless you intend to sit there in the open like an idiot and sift through one sided conversations and command spamming. You'll break your lock more often than you won't unless you're going for a full INT monk.

I agree that you shouldn't be able to see things like issues or replies to them and whatnot, but really if you're the kind of person who would even acknowledge those from the start you're probably a terrible person and bad at RP anyhow so... I know I ignore a lot of things I see that I feel might be OOC or borderline OOC.

Atalkez

The point isn't whether or not you ignore that information.

The point is there is no real reason for Sapience to show that much information.

Aegoth

Why should monk be a spy class? It's already everything else: damage, affliction, utility... can we just throw monk into the garbage can already?

Draqoom

Atalkez said:

The point isn't whether or not you ignore that information.

The point is there is no real reason for Sapience to show that much information.

I'm unsure how you would go about stopping it honestly. It just blanket reports anything you type. Unless there were some kind of appending thing to OOC stuff like issues or whatever it likely couldn't be stopped reliably.

Keorin

Draqoom said:

Atalkez said:

The point isn't whether or not you ignore that information.

The point is there is no real reason for Sapience to show that much information.

I'm unsure how you would go about stopping it honestly. It just blanket reports anything you type. Unless there were some kind of appending thing to OOC stuff like issues or whatever it likely couldn't be stopped reliably.

Don't think this is true, we already have several system commands being blocked, as well as anything blocked by amnesia, ect. I obviously have no idea for the code, but it's definitely not set up to just report naked input.

Kythra

It's incredibly easy to pick out the useful things from Sapience. So easy that there's tons of party leaders who are monk that auto report or gag everything minus clan, pt, says, tells.

I remember raiding with Jhui and he was reporting everything said to PT on the enemy lines through all the spam. Anyone, including children can figure out how to gag or process the information needed and that's what makes it so imba.

But, monk is the star child of every IRE game. Better than a sniper with sash/collar/diadem/dragon crushes and chokes, can go strength or int, now has two different routes with tekura or shikudo, can survive almost everything thrown at them with Kaido, used to be one of the best hunters and PvP classes if it still isn't in top 3 for all the tricks they can pull.

Asking for it to be nerfed is extremely unlikely, but the point remains that on top of all this it shouldn't be a better spy than phased serpent with helm of telepathy and now it is. Monk with a veil and gem can just go to a room no one ever enters and sit and Jack off and gain every OT, PT, CLT, says.

 A serpent has the risk of being seen in phase, eye'd out, helm resetting, and having to follow the fucking person.

In no way is Serpent, Apostate/Priest better than monk now and it leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. I may as well make Kythra monk because I'd gain three times as much information on the target I choose instead of having to sort through the stress of Antidas or someone catching me or sifting through two specific Targossians sexing in tells or pointless Cyrenian babble when instead I can have Saibel phase in for me, let me portal or earring in and sit and watch Farrah for the next 4 hours and not have her know that I've watched her every combat Strat but also what she sent to the Caefir or talked to Halos about.

/endrantofasaltyspymain

Ismay

I'm a monk and kinda agree that this artie is too much. I've never been a fan of other players having access to private conversation. The only reason I want it is for the undetectable mindlocking ability. If sapience was somehow disabled while an owner made use of the artie, I'd see no problem with it.

Torinn

Yeah.  Been thinking more and more I should just go monk lately.  And this is from someone who has played priest basically 100% of the time he's been in Achaea.  Monko is just too good at everything not to.

Kiet

what is shroud alex. if cost was a mitigating factor for anything in achaea, veils would be a great idea.


It's honestly not worth saying anything sensitive at all in-game while not on a ship right now. IF you want to encourage people being off-plane and skype/discord groups more, then this artefact is the perfect solution.

Monk continues to be one of the strongest classes in the game for almost anything that isn't bashing, btw. Their bashing might suck now, but they're incredibly strong at 1v1, small group, big group, medium group, whatever.

Kiet

Plenty of people don't use skype/discord to coordinate things. Synaptic lock will just push a % of those people to start.

Frederich

The entirety of the war was coordinated inside of the game.

The entirety of both of our Nishnatoba battles was coordinated where?  In game.

Us coordinating stuff in an OOC clan to decide what the fuck to do with the war?  In game (albeit OOC).

Farrah's plan to blow up a portion of Ashtan?  All coordinated in game, literally like.. hours before we actually did it.  ((We had just got approval to blow up a spot OOC.  We just had to FIND a spot.))  They fuckin dug through the Obuun family library ((All the books from Shallam)) to find out the history lol.

Point is, Daeir.  Lots of shit is coordinated IN GAME.  OOC, Farrah, Atalkez, and I aren't in some big OOC group on discord outside of the shitter achaea channel (and who in their right mind would lay out the war plans there???).  We talk IN GAME in an OOC clan because it's easier, at times.  Other times we talk in PT.

Kiet

Your experience doesn't match reality, Daeir. I, myself, coordinate lots of things entirely in-game, since I only talk about OOC stuff on discord/skype unless it's like gossip generally.

Jurixe

I don't disagree that a lot of important things are coordinated out of the game. Depending on what it is, like events and such, it is indeed easier because nobody really wants to try and figure out OOC dates and mechanics ICly - it's just tiresome and is more paperwork than actual meaningful IC interaction, even though I guess you could make little experiences out of related events like designing prizes and whatnot. Or learning how to ride for a jousting event.

But for something like a conversion, with a lot of story potential behind it, I'd never do it through OOC channels. It just takes away a lot of the magic for me, the feeling of playing a role in a story that you are writing as you go. The greatest memories you make aren't the pre-scripted ones; they're the ones that happen organically, naturally, woven in trust between you and your roleplay partner(s). It is really a pity that so many of these happen on ships now, though I can understand why.

Most others have echoed my thoughts on the synaptic lock, so I won't bother repeating it other than saying that honestly, I don't think this was a needed addition.  We had enough to make spying just viable enough to pose a risk; now I feel it's gone a bit too far that way. Other than that, just wanted to comment on OOC coordination of things. Going off-plane is still fine; at least it's still within the world. 

Makarios

Daeir said:

Fair, I'll accept the domain of things that I've been involved with might lend itself particularly well to coordinating out-of-game instead of in it. I still don't see the problem with sapience being a means to pry into that, though.

Sapience is a skill you will either like or hate. There's not really a middle ground, its very polarising in that respect.

Accipiter

Interesting, if something is entirely OOC but found out IC using Sapience, I wonder what the Divine ruling for using that information would be.

Farrah

Frederich said:

Farrah's plan to blow up a portion of Ashtan?  All coordinated in game, literally like.. hours before we actually did it.  ((We had just got approval to blow up a spot OOC.  We just had to FIND a spot.))  

That was planned well before "hours before", and we also didn't pick the spot. Deuc did.

We also never got OOC approval to blow up a spot. It was all coordinated IC.

Not relevant to the thread but I don't know why you're making up things about an event you weren't involved in planning.

Alrena

Making espionage so risk-free and quite honestly so easy to do versus how hard it is to counter only means people will find more ways to try and counter this, making it even harder to spy. They'll start using discord/skype where they didn't before, or use ships to meet instead of council chambers. You are essentially pushing things out of the game and that will very likely get worse as Sapience monks with this artie start getting some success.

Genuine curiosity, but how risky would it really be for someone to make a monk alt, buy this artie and start spying on this alt's citymates? How likely is it to get caught at all, if lock breaking doesn't work anymore?

Makarios

Ok, I am going to quash some misconceptions.

Privacy rooms 100% counter sapience. All council rooms should have privacy, so there is no reason (now or previously) not to use the council room. This actually makes using the council room more safe than using an ooc clan - which has always been the case, and is by design. They're also more secure than ships too for the most part, as ships are still subject to the membrane, and council rooms effect the people inside it too (so there's no chance of unsuspecting council member number 1 overhearing schemeing council members 2 and 3 talking about how they're going to unseat him because his tax reform is awful).

As for sapience spying - monks have been using sapience to spy with impunity for years. Maintaining a lock outside of raid conditions if you have a good grasp of lock break mechanics and the artefacts/buffs to back up that understanding is pretty trivial vs 99% of Achaea's population. Lock breaking is very predictable and there has never been a message for voluntarily dissolving your lock to the target.

Aegoth

that just sounds like monk telepathy needs to be beaten hard with a nerf stick, if its that trivial

edit: making an argument that "it's always been this broken, so its fine" really stretches the boundaries of logic, imo. It is, of course, your prerogative to have a game-breaking mechanic in the game, but let's not use faulty arguments to defend its existence

Ada

Mind sapience would be less of an issue if it followed the principle of "that which isn't permitted, is prohibited" where only a few select actions were permitted and visible for spying. Capturing every command is way too intrusive, more so when it's completely silent due to this artefact.

Makarios

Aegoth said:

that just sounds like monk telepathy needs to be beaten hard with a nerf stick, if its that trivial

edit: making an argument that "it's always been this broken, so its fine" really stretches the boundaries of logic, imo. It is, of course, your prerogative to have a game-breaking mechanic in the game, but let's not use faulty arguments to defend its existence

At no point did I say sapience was broken. That's an opinion and it is an opinion I disagree with. I am reading this thread because I am willing to be convinced otherwise (as always).

I will be frank though. It is unlikely we will be swayed into a knee jerk change to a mechanic that has proved to be one of our least problematic contravertial skills for over a decade. Discussion never hurts however, and is good for flagging up issues that may have been missed. We do appreciate the discourse.

Lenn

@Makarios: Is it true that privacy rooms stop all that? Beds are billed as the superior option without exception outside their capacity limit, but I've been told in the past by administration that beds don't stop the universal membrane. Or perhaps org-owned privacy is different from the housing upgrade?