Synaptic lock

Aegoth

Why does this still exist? Admin pls

Atalkez

This got brought up in Discord, so figure I'd take a shot here about my concern.

This artie coupled with a few other things makes Monk the hands down best spy class in the game. Veil to mask entry (and shroud if you're worried about another veil user), this artefact and now you can safely monitor someone without them even knowing about it. Even worse if they're your ally, since you have no idea you ever even got locked.

The artie in and of itself isn't so bad, it's more the interaction with mind cloak and Sapience that I find issue with. Sapience shows EVERYTHING. So I could be replying to an issue, messaging an admin about something or bugging something and the monk would know. Let alone anything scandalous I could be doing.

Telesense as a skill is largely worthless for yourself, since mine cloak stops you knowing you're being locked. I'd say we have thee options to make this situation tenable.

1: Massively nerf the information that Sapience gives. And I mean massively. Limit to tells/says/emotes. No messages, no client side swaps, no commands that fail etc. Right now it shows nearly everything.

2: Adjust Telesense to let you know a lock is being performed on you, without revealing the name of the person, regardless of mind cloak.

3: Delete this artefact.

I'm personally more interested in 1, as the skill is entirely too good for the class. I don't think it needs to be able to see my messages, my ally lists, my priority swaps etc. Just too much information for no real reason. It's not a spy class, let's not help it be one. Right now, it's better than Serpent in every discernible aspect of spying save infiltration. 

Melodie

I don't agree entirely with option 1 because that's still basically an undetectable spying method. I'd lean more towards just deleting mind sapience than that, or limiting it in other fashions that are much more hindering.

Other than that, I agree with everything else.

Atalkez

Daeir said:

I've been testing Sapience a lot since Synaptic came out and 90% of what you see are people's OCD commands - qsc, stat 2, qw, who b, so on, so forth. Even people engaged in regularly paced conversation often force you to hold the lock to a point where you start breaking it in two ticks meaning that you spend almost 20% of the total time investigating someone reacquiring locks and putting sapience/listen back up, which also turbofucks your willpower in short order.

You still see the shit you shouldn't really be seeing. Messages are private for a reason, why should a class get to watch those? Not to mention Sapience shows you everything, and I mean everything. The fact that you only get 'good stuff' a fairly small amount of time is irrelevant.

It's not as world-ending as people think it is on the spying front. Sapience also doesn't show you what tells they receive either, so you receive 1 side of a conversation that isn't held in says at the cost of having to be in the same area as your target (and thus plainly open on full sense).

The issue isn't the tells. It's everything else Sapience shows. Emotes, messages, typos etc.

I too was one of the people who knee jerked about this artefact being awful but honestly, the best thing about it is drainless mindcloak. It's essentially a glorified willpower drain reduction artefact in that regard, with the bonus of providing the means to bypass an unreliable late-Vision defence against telepathy. Considering that it costs 500cr, you have to ask yourself what else you could be purchasing with those credits that provides more of an effect.

Then we shouldn't have any issue with making it so that it doesn't let you spy from a position of near immunity, right? Right.

That and there's always been this historical urge to essentially gut and rape any spying mechanics into total uselessness for some reason. They're a pretty interesting part of the game if you let them be and there already exists numerous ways to counter them for the most part (privacy rooms, isolated areas).

I'm not against spying, I'm against classes being better spies than the actual spy classes. This artefact couples with other things makes this class the defecto spy class, for what? Where is this supported in lore etc? Reading minds is one thing, but you're able to see any action the person takes alongside that. Unless I'm mistaken, Monk doesn't even need the ability to Sapience in the first place. It's extra, and it's cool, so I'm all for keeping it.

I'm not interested in monks being able to spy with extremely little recourse on the defensive side. Private rooms and different areas, seriously? So we're back to staying in an area without monk. Priest spying is extremely limited in comparison, as is Serpent, so why is Monk getting a major buff in that area? Makes no sense.

Something doesn't change here, we're going to have people putting in latent commands then gagging them purely to thwart this. Including myself.

Kiet

Not sure why you need to defend invading people's OOC privacy (because that's what sapience infringes on, unlike most other forms of spying) by calling lock's removal 'rape.' It seems p. clear to me you're just enjoying having it.

Like Atalkez said, either this thing gets removed, sapience nerfed, or 'make a trigger to send garbage commands you gag every 2 seconds' is gonna become commonplace.

Farrah

I don't think "it's not a spy class" is a reason to change it. That's very arbitrary. I've always seen monk as a spy class as it was always the only way to get at certain information. Mind reading shouldn't enable someone to spy on a person? How is that not reason enough in "lore"?

As for the actual mechanics, though, there is precedent for removing commands from sapience's view (parry) and I think everyone would agree some things should 100% be removed: bug, typo, replyissue. Maybe message, but some messages are IC so mixed feelings there.

I don't agree it should be as limited as you want it though. Hearing PT is the number one use of sapience and always has been. I think it'd suck to remove that, and if you remove other channels like clt, people can just use a clan instead of a party to bypass sapience. Sapience is also the only way to possibly hear things said on CT, Council clans, etc., which are IC. It's interesting to have a potential for such things being overheard.

That being said, should it be 100% unstoppable? No. I'd be fine with activating sapience deactivating veil. Then it should be easy to detect monks who don't belong. Monks should also have an active command they can use to detect current mindlocks in the area. The command could be added to the sense font power too.

Atalkez

I forgot about PT, can leave that one.

I'm mainly concerned about messages. Gods/Admins are restricted from reading our messages, right? Why is a class able to do so?

Not a spy class is arbitrary, agree there, but it shouldn't be undoubtedly better than the others, which it currently is.

Farrah

It's not undoubtedly better though. You need a 2000 credit artefact, a shroud, and no enemies with skywatch or flyblocking to even infiltrate an enemy city without being seen.

Then you have to deal with your mind lock repeatedly breaking, causing you to miss parts of the conversation. It's better in some ways, but not all. I'm saying this as someone who tries spying both as serpent and as monk. A lot of the time, it's impossible for me to do anything as monk because I don't have the capability of getting into the target city undetected.

Unless you're spying on your allies in which case, yeah, it's better, but shame on you!

I'm pretty sure gods can read messages.

Another idea is to have Sapience appear on LOOK. The monk is focusing intently or something. If it's someone you don't notice in your city at all, you'd be vulnerable, but people can't just spy in plain sight in cities they aren't enemied to.

Ahmet

Sapience only works in-room. Problem solved.

I'm only half-joking

Farrah

I'd also be fine with the artie just being repurposed. Like something you can activate that makes telesense 100% detect your locks, but your locks are unbreakable (other than by leaving area, other monk locking) while active. Can have limited duration and a CD if needed.

Campaign to help monks scythe/radiance high int/level targets without tears.

Plz @Makarios

Mindshell

Issue is concealed lock + sapience? Just make 'em mutually exclusive. Does it matter beyond that?

Farrah

It matters because everyone bought the Artie for Sapience. I wouldn't have bought it if it functioned as-is with no Sapience.

Alrena

Farrah said:

It matters because everyone bought the Artie for Sapience. I wouldn't have bought it if it functioned as-is with no Sapience.

Remember kids, the Dawnlord is -always- watching.

On a more serious note, I'm with Atalkez on this one. I don't think a guaranteed sneaky foolproof spy method should exist. It's easy enough to have a serp infiltrate and earring/portal/track and lesserform in. And that's not even talking about spying on your own allies with zero risk. Mindshell's solution seems fair to me.

Ahmet

I feel like there's two entirely separate discussions here that both need addressing

1) How absurd mind sapience is as a skill

2) How absurd infinite undetectable spying is (even if it's only mind listen, not sapience)

Krypton

Any tool to reveal what a bunch of sickos y'all are in private, is OK in my book.

Ya nasties.

Ismay

This is why I generally wait on buying any new arties or participating in any monthly promos that are likely to get changed. First, this gets changed, then that, until the main reason you bought that particular thing is gone, heh. It's safer to just wait until the newness is gone and most initial changes are made before deciding to buy.

Even though this artie has me drooling...

Xaden

Solution: Delete monks.

Ismay

You swine!

Farrah

Alrena said:

Farrah said:

It matters because everyone bought the Artie for Sapience. I wouldn't have bought it if it functioned as-is with no Sapience.

Remember kids, the Dawnlord is -always- watching.

On a more serious note, I'm with Atalkez on this one. I don't think a guaranteed sneaky foolproof spy method should exist. It's easy enough to have a serp infiltrate and earring/portal/track and lesserform in. And that's not even talking about spying on your own allies with zero risk. Mindshell's solution seems fair to me.

I'm curious if anyone who believes Mindshell's solution is fair actually owns the artefact though. I mean, it's the purchasers who are most relevant when deciding what is fair to them and what people will buy. There are plenty of ways to address the actual problem better without eliminating the usefulness of the artefact. Otherwise, you might as well just delete it.

Austere

Atalkez said:

I'm mainly concerned about messages. Gods/Admins are restricted from reading our messages, right? Why is a class able to do so?

Wrong.  God's will read your messages and they will use them against you ic unless you properly mark them as ooc.

Ahmet

Mindshell's solution is fair so long as people are offered refunds. Which is what should happen. Sapience and listen shouldn't work with the artefact. It's dumb.

The purchasers may be relevant when deciding what's fair to them, but they're really not the most balanced and unbiased source when it comes to what's fair and balanced for others to have to deal with.

Farrah

Ahmet said:

Mindshell's solution is fair so long as people are offered refunds. Which is what should happen. Sapience and listen shouldn't work with the artefact. It's dumb.

The purchasers may be relevant when deciding what's fair to them, but they're really not the most balanced and unbiased source when it comes to what's fair and balanced for others to have to deal with.

Sure, I agree. Anything's fair with a full refund. They don't usually make changes that require a full refund, though. Hence it not being the ideal solution. They also want people to still buy it after the changes.

I offered a lot of solutions to address the problem had by others, though. I'm actually fairly unbiased because I'm not usually in monk and Daeir is a snoop who is always in my area. I'm just trying to suggest something that makes both sides happy, rather than "Lol, just nerf, who cares about people buying it?"

The fact of the matter is, this artefact had Sapience written all over it when introduced. It wasn't an unintended consequence. It was the primary purpose of the artefact. You can't just remove it and pretend that is just an ordinary tweak to mechanics. It's not.

Alrena

Farrah said:

Ahmet said:

Mindshell's solution is fair so long as people are offered refunds. Which is what should happen. Sapience and listen shouldn't work with the artefact. It's dumb.

The purchasers may be relevant when deciding what's fair to them, but they're really not the most balanced and unbiased source when it comes to what's fair and balanced for others to have to deal with.

Sure, I agree. Anything's fair with a full refund. They don't usually make changes that require a full refund, though. Hence it not being the ideal solution.

I offered a lot of solutions to address the problem had by others, though. I'm actually fairly unbiased because I'm not usually in monk and Daeir is a snoop who is always in my area. I'm just trying to suggest something that makes both sides happy, rather than "Lol, just nerf, who cares about people buying it?"

The fact of the matter is, this artefact had Sapience written all over it when introduced. It wasn't an unintended consequence. It was the primary purpose of the artefact. You can't just remove it and pretend that is just an ordinary tweak to mechanics. It's not.

I'd be fine with Sapience being tweaked to just see tells, says, pt, ct, clt. Doesn't need to show message or emotes and especially not things like replying to issues. The only thing that deterred Sapience before was that you could get caught with it when the lock breaks, which you can't really predict. Maybe this artefact was intended to buff Sapience, but you can't just remove the largest drawback (at a price) and let a very powerful ability just remain the same.

Either the artefact should be tweaked to be useful like no lock breaks if adjacent without affecting Sapience (like Mindshell suggested), or tweak Sapience so it's limited and has some risk. Every other spy method has ways to deal with it: throwing eye sigils, looking at someone, checking the area. 

Honestly I've never been a fan of Sapience, it pushes people to use ooc means just because the enemy's listening in and you can't do much about that. This artie risks pushing that further. It's a cool ability in theory, but really nobody likes the idea of being spied on without being able to do anything about it.

Krypton

I like the direction things are going. I bet within the month, Druids are getting Grove Omniscience back.

Siduri

Austere said:

Atalkez said:

I'm mainly concerned about messages. Gods/Admins are restricted from reading our messages, right? Why is a class able to do so?

Wrong.  God's will read your messages and they will use them against you ic unless you properly mark them as ooc.

This also includes artefact beds. Word of caution for those who plan to invest.

Makarios

As of the moment the only thing I am going to comment on is that we agree sapience should not show certain specifically ooc commands. We'll look into that - people definitely shouldn't be seeing your issue responses etc. I will note that sapience is very much a spying tool - saying monk isn't a spy class is simply incorrect: telepathy has huge support for information gathering and this is intentional.

We are watching this thread, so feel free to keep discussing.

Siduri

Makarios said:

As of the moment the only thing I am going to comment on is that we agree sapience should not show certain specifically ooc commands. We'll look into that - people definitely shouldn't be seeing your issue responses etc. I will note that sapience is very much a spying tool - saying monk isn't a spy class is simply incorrect: telepathy has huge support for information gathering and this is intentional.

We are watching this thread, so feel free to keep discussing.

I'd honestly be happy as long as this can be properly countered by Ananke's Hood.

Ahmet

Spy class or not, monk having area-wide unlimited undetectable spying with zero counters is dumb, artefact or not.

Frederich

Solution: Only meet on ships. 

Also listen, AFAIK, fucks up if you are speaking in a language they don't understand (city language). 

It's the premise that sapient shows you the EXACT command the person types in (including emoticons to make their say/tell have a laughingly etc).  This can go as far as showing curing priority shifts, since server-side curing is what a lot of people use. Possibly even svof etc (though I don't know how that works).  Ooc tells, ooc clans (which I have been a victim of someone saying it was IC, proficy, when Its an ooc clan and bringing it up IC.)... 

Mistyped commands, mistyped replyissue? Lol they can see what you wrote.  Sapience, as a whole, is only really countered by having more int/WP than the monk locking you. 

Limiting the actions a person sees during it would be fine enough to me. But there are certain boundaries that need to be checked tbh.  Monks spies are fine. Being undetectable + area wide + veil just makes it not so, though. It makes it an annoyance and disrupting to the flow of things, really. 

If, in the future, this does get changed I would greatly enjoy to see the teams thoughts on the matter and what they wanted to do with it.

Xaden

Skype groups ftw