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Synaptic lock

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  • RyzethRyzeth Member Posts: 1,105 @ - Epic Achaean
    Leviticus said:
    Sapience < Mind Barrier
    Don't give them more ideas on artifacts to add. Calm the fuck down, Satan.
    Shirszae
  • AegothAegoth Member Posts: 2,799 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Why does this still exist? Admin pls
    KietAccipiterMelodie
  • MelodieMelodie Port Saint Lucie, FloridaMember Posts: 5,085 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I don't agree entirely with option 1 because that's still basically an undetectable spying method. I'd lean more towards just deleting mind sapience than that, or limiting it in other fashions that are much more hindering.

    Other than that, I agree with everything else.
               My wing tips waltz across naive
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    My percussive feet serve cobweb headaches as a
              Matching set of marching clocks
                The slumbering apparitions
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  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,288 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited July 2017
    I've been testing Sapience a lot since Synaptic came out and 90% of what you see are people's OCD commands - qsc, stat 2, qw, who b, so on, so forth. Even people engaged in regularly paced conversation often force you to hold the lock to a point where you start breaking it in two ticks meaning that you spend almost 20% of the total time investigating someone reacquiring locks and putting sapience/listen back up, which also turbofucks your willpower in short order.

    It's not as world-ending as people think it is on the spying front. Sapience also doesn't show you what tells they receive either, so you receive 1 side of a conversation that isn't held in says at the cost of having to be in the same area as your target (and thus plainly open on fullsense).

    I too was one of the people who knee jerked about this artefact being awful but honestly, the best thing about it is drainless mindcloak. It's essentially a glorified willpower drain reduction artefact in that regard, with the bonus of providing the means to bypass an unreliable late-Vision defence against telepathy. Considering that it costs 500cr, you have to ask yourself what else you could be purchasing with those credits that provides more of an effect.

    That and there's always been this historical urge to essentially gut and rape any spying mechanics into total uselessness for some reason. They're a pretty interesting part of the game if you let them be and there already exists numerous ways to counter them for the most part (privacy rooms, isolated areas).
    AmandaDochitha
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member Posts: 5,047 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Daeir said:
    I've been testing Sapience a lot since Synaptic came out and 90% of what you see are people's OCD commands - qsc, stat 2, qw, who b, so on, so forth. Even people engaged in regularly paced conversation often force you to hold the lock to a point where you start breaking it in two ticks meaning that you spend almost 20% of the total time investigating someone reacquiring locks and putting sapience/listen back up, which also turbofucks your willpower in short order.

    You still see the shit you shouldn't really be seeing. Messages are private for a reason, why should a class get to watch those? Not to mention Sapience shows you everything, and I mean everything. The fact that you only get 'good stuff' a fairly small amount of time is irrelevant.

    It's not as world-ending as people think it is on the spying front. Sapience also doesn't show you what tells they receive either, so you receive 1 side of a conversation that isn't held in says at the cost of having to be in the same area as your target (and thus plainly open on full sense).

    The issue isn't the tells. It's everything else Sapience shows. Emotes, messages, typos etc.

    I too was one of the people who knee jerked about this artefact being awful but honestly, the best thing about it is drainless mindcloak. It's essentially a glorified willpower drain reduction artefact in that regard, with the bonus of providing the means to bypass an unreliable late-Vision defence against telepathy. Considering that it costs 500cr, you have to ask yourself what else you could be purchasing with those credits that provides more of an effect.

    Then we shouldn't have any issue with making it so that it doesn't let you spy from a position of near immunity, right? Right.

    That and there's always been this historical urge to essentially gut and rape any spying mechanics into total uselessness for some reason. They're a pretty interesting part of the game if you let them be and there already exists numerous ways to counter them for the most part (privacy rooms, isolated areas).

    I'm not against spying, I'm against classes being better spies than the actual spy classes. This artefact couples with other things makes this class the defecto spy class, for what? Where is this supported in lore etc? Reading minds is one thing, but you're able to see any action the person takes alongside that. Unless I'm mistaken, Monk doesn't even need the ability to Sapience in the first place. It's extra, and it's cool, so I'm all for keeping it.

    I'm not interested in monks being able to spy with extremely little recourse on the defensive side. Private rooms and different areas, seriously? So we're back to staying in an area without monk. Priest spying is extremely limited in comparison, as is Serpent, so why is Monk getting a major buff in that area? Makes no sense.

    Something doesn't change here, we're going to have people putting in latent commands then gagging them purely to thwart this. Including myself.



    You hug Aurora compassionately.
    RomAmandaJayden
  • KietKiet Member Posts: 3,263 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited July 2017
    Not sure why you need to defend invading people's OOC privacy (because that's what sapience infringes on, unlike most other forms of spying) by calling lock's removal 'rape.' It seems p. clear to me you're just enjoying having it.

    Like Atalkez said, either this thing gets removed, sapience nerfed, or 'make a trigger to send garbage commands you gag every 2 seconds' is gonna become commonplace.
    Madelyne
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member Posts: 5,047 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I forgot about PT, can leave that one.

    I'm mainly concerned about messages. Gods/Admins are restricted from reading our messages, right? Why is a class able to do so?

    Not a spy class is arbitrary, agree there, but it shouldn't be undoubtedly better than the others, which it currently is.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
    YselaMadelyne
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,288 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Yeah, message being mixed IC/OOC is a difficult one since people do use them to cross-planar chat among other things.

    Also, no player in Achaea is entitled to "OOC privacy" in the context of in-game spying mechanics. There's no mechanical distinction between a clan that is OOC and one that is IC (though there probably needs to be admittedly). Spying exists as an aspect of the game and is something you should expect to have to deal with, not never think about.

    Agree 100% that fully OOC commands like issues, bugs, etc shouldn't hit Sapience, as well as messages directed to administration or staff in general.
  • FarrahFarrah Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 2,511 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited July 2017
    It's not undoubtedly better though. You need a 2000 credit artefact, a shroud, and no enemies with skywatch or flyblocking to even infiltrate an enemy city without being seen.

    Then you have to deal with your mind lock repeatedly breaking, causing you to miss parts of the conversation. It's better in some ways, but not all. I'm saying this as someone who tries spying both as serpent and as monk. A lot of the time, it's impossible for me to do anything as monk because I don't have the capability of getting into the target city undetected.

    Unless you're spying on your allies in which case, yeah, it's better, but shame on you!

    I'm pretty sure gods can read messages.

    Another idea is to have Sapience appear on LOOK. The monk is focusing intently or something. If it's someone you don't notice in your city at all, you'd be vulnerable, but people can't just spy in plain sight in cities they aren't enemied to.
  • AhmetAhmet Wherever I wanna beMember Posts: 3,370 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Sapience only works in-room. Problem solved.

    I'm only half-joking :confounded:
    Huh. Neat.
  • FarrahFarrah Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 2,511 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I'd also be fine with the artie just being repurposed. Like something you can activate that makes telesense 100% detect your locks, but your locks are unbreakable (other than by leaving area, other monk locking) while active. Can have limited duration and a CD if needed.

    Campaign to help monks scythe/radiance high int/level targets without tears.

    Plz @Makarios
    Keorin
  • MindshellMindshell Member Posts: 312 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Issue is concealed lock + sapience? Just make 'em mutually exclusive. Does it matter beyond that?
    KietKeorinAlrenaTorinn
  • FarrahFarrah Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 2,511 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited July 2017
    It matters because everyone bought the Artie for Sapience. I wouldn't have bought it if it functioned as-is with no Sapience.
  • AlrenaAlrena Member Posts: 647 @ - Epic Achaean
    Farrah said:
    It matters because everyone bought the Artie for Sapience. I wouldn't have bought it if it functioned as-is with no Sapience.
    Remember kids, the Dawnlord is -always- watching.

    On a more serious note, I'm with Atalkez on this one. I don't think a guaranteed sneaky foolproof spy method should exist. It's easy enough to have a serp infiltrate and earring/portal/track and lesserform in. And that's not even talking about spying on your own allies with zero risk. Mindshell's solution seems fair to me.
    image
  • AhmetAhmet Wherever I wanna beMember Posts: 3,370 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I feel like there's two entirely separate discussions here that both need addressing

    1) How absurd mind sapience is as a skill

    2) How absurd infinite undetectable spying is (even if it's only mind listen, not sapience)
    Huh. Neat.
  • KryptonKrypton shi-KhurenaMember Posts: 2,377 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Any tool to reveal what a bunch of sickos y'all are in private, is OK in my book.

    Ya nasties.
    (Mhaldor): Herenicus says, "Apologies, I am in-and-out of hold with Verizon wireless customer service."
  • IsmayIsmay Member Posts: 690 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    This is why I generally wait on buying any new arties or participating in any monthly promos that are likely to get changed. First, this gets changed, then that, until the main reason you bought that particular thing is gone, heh. It's safer to just wait until the newness is gone and most initial changes are made before deciding to buy.

    Even though this artie has me drooling...
    Give us shop logs!

    Pretty please...
    Jayden
  • IsmayIsmay Member Posts: 690 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    You swine!
    Give us shop logs!

    Pretty please...
    Exelethril
  • FarrahFarrah Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 2,511 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited July 2017
    Alrena said:
    Farrah said:
    It matters because everyone bought the Artie for Sapience. I wouldn't have bought it if it functioned as-is with no Sapience.
    Remember kids, the Dawnlord is -always- watching.

    On a more serious note, I'm with Atalkez on this one. I don't think a guaranteed sneaky foolproof spy method should exist. It's easy enough to have a serp infiltrate and earring/portal/track and lesserform in. And that's not even talking about spying on your own allies with zero risk. Mindshell's solution seems fair to me.

    I'm curious if anyone who believes Mindshell's solution is fair actually owns the artefact though. I mean, it's the purchasers who are most relevant when deciding what is fair to them and what people will buy. There are plenty of ways to address the actual problem better without eliminating the usefulness of the artefact. Otherwise, you might as well just delete it.
  • AustereAustere TennesseeMember Posts: 2,283 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited July 2017
    Atalkez said:

    I'm mainly concerned about messages. Gods/Admins are restricted from reading our messages, right? Why is a class able to do so?
    Wrong.  God's will read your messages and they will use them against you ic unless you properly mark them as ooc.
    SiduriSirrionShirszae
  • AhmetAhmet Wherever I wanna beMember Posts: 3,370 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Mindshell's solution is fair so long as people are offered refunds. Which is what should happen. Sapience and listen shouldn't work with the artefact. It's dumb.

    The purchasers may be relevant when deciding what's fair to them, but they're really not the most balanced and unbiased source when it comes to what's fair and balanced for others to have to deal with.
    Huh. Neat.
  • FarrahFarrah Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 2,511 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited July 2017
    Ahmet said:
    Mindshell's solution is fair so long as people are offered refunds. Which is what should happen. Sapience and listen shouldn't work with the artefact. It's dumb.

    The purchasers may be relevant when deciding what's fair to them, but they're really not the most balanced and unbiased source when it comes to what's fair and balanced for others to have to deal with.

    Sure, I agree. Anything's fair with a full refund. They don't usually make changes that require a full refund, though. Hence it not being the ideal solution. They also want people to still buy it after the changes.

    I offered a lot of solutions to address the problem had by others, though. I'm actually fairly unbiased because I'm not usually in monk and Daeir is a snoop who is always in my area. I'm just trying to suggest something that makes both sides happy, rather than "Lol, just nerf, who cares about people buying it?"

    The fact of the matter is, this artefact had Sapience written all over it when introduced. It wasn't an unintended consequence. It was the primary purpose of the artefact. You can't just remove it and pretend that is just an ordinary tweak to mechanics. It's not.
  • AlrenaAlrena Member Posts: 647 @ - Epic Achaean
    Farrah said:
    Ahmet said:
    Mindshell's solution is fair so long as people are offered refunds. Which is what should happen. Sapience and listen shouldn't work with the artefact. It's dumb.

    The purchasers may be relevant when deciding what's fair to them, but they're really not the most balanced and unbiased source when it comes to what's fair and balanced for others to have to deal with.

    Sure, I agree. Anything's fair with a full refund. They don't usually make changes that require a full refund, though. Hence it not being the ideal solution.

    I offered a lot of solutions to address the problem had by others, though. I'm actually fairly unbiased because I'm not usually in monk and Daeir is a snoop who is always in my area. I'm just trying to suggest something that makes both sides happy, rather than "Lol, just nerf, who cares about people buying it?"

    The fact of the matter is, this artefact had Sapience written all over it when introduced. It wasn't an unintended consequence. It was the primary purpose of the artefact. You can't just remove it and pretend that is just an ordinary tweak to mechanics. It's not.
    I'd be fine with Sapience being tweaked to just see tells, says, pt, ct, clt. Doesn't need to show message or emotes and especially not things like replying to issues. The only thing that deterred Sapience before was that you could get caught with it when the lock breaks, which you can't really predict. Maybe this artefact was intended to buff Sapience, but you can't just remove the largest drawback (at a price) and let a very powerful ability just remain the same.

    Either the artefact should be tweaked to be useful like no lock breaks if adjacent without affecting Sapience (like Mindshell suggested), or tweak Sapience so it's limited and has some risk. Every other spy method has ways to deal with it: throwing eye sigils, looking at someone, checking the area. 

    Honestly I've never been a fan of Sapience, it pushes people to use ooc means just because the enemy's listening in and you can't do much about that. This artie risks pushing that further. It's a cool ability in theory, but really nobody likes the idea of being spied on without being able to do anything about it.
    image
  • KryptonKrypton shi-KhurenaMember Posts: 2,377 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I like the direction things are going. I bet within the month, Druids are getting Grove Omniscience back.
    (Mhaldor): Herenicus says, "Apologies, I am in-and-out of hold with Verizon wireless customer service."
  • SiduriSiduri Member Posts: 1,592 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Austere said:
    Atalkez said:

    I'm mainly concerned about messages. Gods/Admins are restricted from reading our messages, right? Why is a class able to do so?
    Wrong.  God's will read your messages and they will use them against you ic unless you properly mark them as ooc.
    This also includes artefact beds. Word of caution for those who plan to invest.

    image
    Austere
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