Synaptic lock

Makarios

Lenn said:

@Makarios: Is it true that privacy rooms stop all that? Beds are billed as the superior option without exception outside their capacity limit, but I've been told in the past by administration that beds don't stop the universal membrane. Or perhaps org-owned privacy is different from the housing upgrade?

Beds also hard block sapience, yes. I can check other things if there are ones you are curious about as its done on a case by case basis - beds and privacy rooms are handled slightly differently on our end.

Farrah

Makarios said:

Aegoth said:

that just sounds like monk telepathy needs to be beaten hard with a nerf stick, if its that trivial

edit: making an argument that "it's always been this broken, so its fine" really stretches the boundaries of logic, imo. It is, of course, your prerogative to have a game-breaking mechanic in the game, but let's not use faulty arguments to defend its existence

At no point did I say sapience was broken. That's an opinion and it is an opinion I disagree with. I am reading this thread because I am willing to be convinced otherwise (as always).

I will be frank though. It is unlikely we will be swayed into a knee jerk change to a mechanic that has proved to be one of our least problematic contravertial skills for over a decade. Discussion never hurts however, and is good for flagging up issues that may have been missed. We do appreciate the discourse.

Personally, would just like a better way to detect citizens spying on other citizens. Enemies, if you catch them in the city, they're caught. Citizens are always there, and the only real way to detect is with another monk. And the other monk would have to break the precise law they're trying to enforce to detect the issue.

Makarios

Farrah said:

Makarios said:

Aegoth said:

that just sounds like monk telepathy needs to be beaten hard with a nerf stick, if its that trivial

edit: making an argument that "it's always been this broken, so its fine" really stretches the boundaries of logic, imo. It is, of course, your prerogative to have a game-breaking mechanic in the game, but let's not use faulty arguments to defend its existence

At no point did I say sapience was broken. That's an opinion and it is an opinion I disagree with. I am reading this thread because I am willing to be convinced otherwise (as always).

I will be frank though. It is unlikely we will be swayed into a knee jerk change to a mechanic that has proved to be one of our least problematic contravertial skills for over a decade. Discussion never hurts however, and is good for flagging up issues that may have been missed. We do appreciate the discourse.

Personally, would just like a better way to detect citizens spying on other citizens. Enemies, if you catch them in the city, they're caught. Citizens are always there, and the only real way to detect is with another monk. And the other monk would have to break the precise law they're trying to enforce to detect the issue.

The allied use is something I do agree with. I will give that some thought.

Micaelis

I disagree with the idea that monk should be considered a "spy" class. It might, as a result of telepathy, have some abilities that would be considered to lean towards spying but the fact that a punch and kick, or stick wielding, Bruce Lee reject has better capabilities at information gathering than a shadow-dealing, invisible, extra-planar traveling entity with an entire skill call "subterfrigginfuge" is ridiculous. 

The "Serpents can be phased and aren't detected via fullsense" argument is weak, since while phased they can only detect Says. Anything more requires a resetting helm that anyone else can access. Monks can access literally every command of value that could possible be sent, from a far away distance, and with the added protection of actually being able to tell when the target is aware of their presence since...they're being mind sapienced, so you'll see the farsee more than likely. 

I don't really care about mind sapience in terms of combat mechanics (though I think each city should seriously consider hard-coding laws regarding its use on each other, as far as spying on your own citizens goes) but I think it's a shame if a karate class is better at spying than the literal, actual, spying class. 

Ahmet

The things that sapience lets you see that you shouldn't be able to see:

Typo'd commands
Aliases should be shown as the command that goes through, not the alias itself, and each separated command should respect the sapience limits (re:curing configs, etc)
Bugs/issues
Messages and tells to the administration/divine/possibly denizens
Text sent to channels like the ACA, admin, builders, guides, etc.

Lenn

@Makarios: Ah, sorry. You'd mentioned that conversations on ships are subject to the universal membrane, implying council rooms are not. I was curious because the related HELP files state beds are superior to housing privacy, and I'd assumed housing privacy was the same as org room privacy. Since I'd been told in the past (a response to ISSUE ME) that beds are also subject to the universal membrane, I reasoned privacy rooms would be as well.

In other words, it sounds like one or more of my assumptions may be mistaken about privacy, beds, and the universal membrane, and since I play a character with a distinct enough speaking tic that makes membrane spying more effective than usual, I'm a bit curious if you don't mind checking.

Aegoth

Lenn said:

@Makarios: Ah, sorry. You'd mentioned that conversations on ships are subject to the universal membrane, implying council rooms are not. I was curious because the related HELP files state beds are superior to housing privacy, and I'd assumed housing privacy was the same as org room privacy. Since I'd been told in the past (a response to ISSUE ME) that beds are also subject to the universal membrane, I reasoned privacy rooms would be as well.

In other words, it sounds like one or more of my assumptions may be mistaken about privacy, beds, and the universal membrane, and since I play a character with a distinct enough speaking tic that makes membrane spying more effective than usual, I'm a bit curious if you don't mind checking.

Just don't say "nyan" at the end of every sentence and you should be fine

Sobriquet

Does the Bell Tattoo defense protect against any of these concerns?

Micaelis

Makarios said:

Aegoth said:

that just sounds like monk telepathy needs to be beaten hard with a nerf stick, if its that trivial

edit: making an argument that "it's always been this broken, so its fine" really stretches the boundaries of logic, imo. It is, of course, your prerogative to have a game-breaking mechanic in the game, but let's not use faulty arguments to defend its existence

At no point did I say sapience was broken. That's an opinion and it is an opinion I disagree with. I am reading this thread because I am willing to be convinced otherwise (as always).

I will be frank though. It is unlikely we will be swayed into a knee jerk change to a mechanic that has proved to be one of our least problematic contravertial skills for over a decade. Discussion never hurts however, and is good for flagging up issues that may have been missed. We do appreciate the discourse.

It might just not have been an issue because of how rarely it was used, in comparison to today. 

Makarios said:

As for sapience spying - monks have been using sapience to spy with impunity for years. Maintaining a lock outside of raid conditions if you have a good grasp of lock break mechanics and the artefacts/buffs to back up that understanding is pretty trivial vs 99% of Achaea's population. Lock breaking is very predictable and there has never been a message for voluntarily dissolving your lock to the target.

This 'impunity' makes a couple assumptions: A) Have a good grasp of lock break mechanics and b) Have the mind lock artefact and statistical buffing artefacts. Even with these buffs you still run the risk of the lock breaking and being caught, something a lot of people perhaps are not willing to risk. This argument is akin to saying 'Why are illusions an issue? All you have to do is code every given situation and you're illusion-proof'. Just because something is possible does not mean it's likely and, if it were, illusions would still have combat implications today. 

Compare that to today's world, where we have an increase in the total number of monks as a result of multiclass + shikudo release, and then you remove entirely the base necessity of a grasp on the mechanics for lock -and- reduce the overall artefact cost by removing the statistical and mind lock artefact as a necessity and replacing it with this artefact, and you have a vastly larger pool of Achaeans, with an ever-increasing access to sapience, with 99.9% of all the risk removed. 

I am fine with the combat implications of Sapience, I find it interesting. I might be alone in this but I feel the ability itself, as a player, is intrusive. Any city can have any number of monks on at a time, and any number of those monks could be actively spying on me at any given second. Watching every single thing I do, recording every word or emote I send. For me personally this isn't that big of an issue, but as far as the assumption that, as a member of this community, I am afforded some bare minimum expectation of privacy then that is where I have to draw the line. 

We have already seen a number of issues arise in-game as a result of the sheer increase in sapience rates, and there's no real reason why it should exist in the first place. Something having not been raised as an issue in the past does not give it validity in the present, such as the cases with suffrage or civil rights. If the reasoning for anything's continued existence is 'Well, it wasn't a problem last year' then there is no expressed reason to keep it at all other than that it already exists.

EDIT: And if the reasoning behind its existence is an increased likelihood of espionage and spying, which is fine, why in the world would Monk be the class that ability would land on? If you want that mechanic in-game, throw it on Serpent, or any number of other classes. Why lock the mechanic itself behind one of the highest-use classes as-is in the game already?

Ahmet

Sobriquet said:

Does the Bell Tattoo defense protect against any of these concerns?

@Sobriquet Not currently, no. The only thing bell tattoo does is warn you if you are appraised.

Krypton

All of you individuals complaining of the "intrusiveness" of your GAME actions being tracked IN THAT GAME need to learn to uncouple real-world privacy concerns from Achaea.

Only ISSUEs might needfully contain personal and sensitive information -- everything else is a choice.

So if you choose to bring it into Achaea, it should be subject to being Achaeans' business.

No one is forcing you to put your credit card number into Achaea's keystrokes, which is why you don't. So take the same responsibility in deciding anything else you type in.

Micaelis

That's an idiotic statement. What of a younger player who has no knowledge of these types of mechanics and who is having some sort of emotional conversation with another person? What of someone who wants to engage in sexual behavior but can't afford a bed, or again someone who is ignorant? They're supposed to just grimace and happily accept your intrusion, bearing any shame or embarrassment that comes from that, or jump through fifty hoops just because you want to be nosy?

If the intent is to spy on mudsexing people or to just be a pain in the ass, then it's a grief mechanic with absolutely no validity. If not, then there's a multitude of ways to limit what one could see, as listed in previous posts.

Tysandr

Making weird and perplexing mudsexing emotes is the best when someone is watching and thinks you don't know.

Cause then you know you're causing real pain.

#owhyeah

Krypton

If Achaea is not primarily intended as a platform for OOC chatting/text-sex/whatever -- nor conveyed to be secure for them -- is it your fault for being caught doing them?... Um, Yes.

Austere

Micaelis said:

That's an idiotic statement. What of a younger player who has no knowledge of these types of mechanics and who is having some sort of emotional conversation with another person? What of someone who wants to engage in sexual behavior but can't afford a bed, or again someone who is ignorant? They're supposed to just grimace and happily accept your intrusion, bearing any shame or embarrassment that comes from that, or jump through fifty hoops just because you want to be nosy?

If the intent is to spy on mudsexing people or to just be a pain in the ass, then it's a grief mechanic with absolutely no validity. If not, then there's a multitude of ways to limit what one could see, as listed in previous posts.

Since when is mud sex a consideration for balancing of anything.. You should be responsible for the actions of your character. If your character behaves like Viola, I have no pity for you. 

What if a younger character is ignorant to the effects of phase? I don't think ignorance should be a balancing factor either.  If it were, a lot of combat would be much more simplified. 

Micaelis

Austere said:

Micaelis said:

That's an idiotic statement. What of a younger player who has no knowledge of these types of mechanics and who is having some sort of emotional conversation with another person? What of someone who wants to engage in sexual behavior but can't afford a bed, or again someone who is ignorant? They're supposed to just grimace and happily accept your intrusion, bearing any shame or embarrassment that comes from that, or jump through fifty hoops just because you want to be nosy?

If the intent is to spy on mudsexing people or to just be a pain in the ass, then it's a grief mechanic with absolutely no validity. If not, then there's a multitude of ways to limit what one could see, as listed in previous posts.

Since when is mud sex a consideration for balancing of anything.. You should be responsible for the actions of your character. If your character behaves like Viola, I have no pity for you. 

What if a younger character is ignorant to the effects of phase? I don't think ignorance should be a balancing factor either.  If it were, a lot of combat would be much more simplified. 

Those are just two instances. The idea behind it is that you have to decide what it's for. If it's for spying on the political level, then you could easily remove emotes, for example, along with things like issue replies, certain clan tells that are OOC perhaps, things of that nature, while maintaining tells/says/messages/etc, and keep the core reasoning behind its existence. Is it a way to go 'Neener neener I know what you're doing'? If so, it serves absolutely no purpose. If its intention is a distinct spying purpose, then it has no reason to be able to access the components that do not fall into that category.

Micaelis

Krypton said:

If Achaea is not primarily intended as a platform for OOC chatting/text-sex/whatever -- nor conveyed to be secure for them -- is it your fault for being caught doing them?... Um, Yes.

Some few clans may be explicitly OOC (out-of-character). This will be explicitly indicated somewhere

in the clan helps. The publicly accessible clanhelp scroll (i.e. CLANHELP <CLAN>) must always abide 

by the ooc and language rules even if the clan is an ooc clan. Says and tells may be ooc, as they're 

not public(lol).

All channels are subject to HELP LANGUAGERULES, except clan channels.

Staying IN CHARACTER, and Other Restrictions

--------------------------------------------

Always try to stay in character (IC) on channels - you are playing the role of a

person in a magical world called Achaea. Talk about real life, other muds, or

your favourite singer - this should all be done outside the game or, if you

must, use TELLS.

Call me crazy, but I think there is a rather clear indication of what is and what is not an expected platform for "OOC chatting", and I believe you have no right to that information through in-game means.

Krypton

Failing to note that Achaea's clear preference is that you still KEEP IT OUT OF ACHAEA ENTIRELY:

Talk about real life, other muds, or

your favourite singer - this should all be done outside the game

Ahmet

Just change bell tattoo to function the way it used to function if you touch it and already have the defence up.

Micaelis

That's in relation to tells which, as it states, is a "last resort". There are also a number of abilities which can detect tells, so mind sapience isn't an issue to taht end. That in no way applies to clearly-defined OOC clans, however, with clear stipulations as to what they must do to be considered OOC. 

Micaelis

There's no real way to track what clan is clearly defined as OOC from a scaling standpoint, it's an inordinate expectation, but the point is that mind sapience can trespass across clearly defined boundaries in a way that nothing else in the game can. Every single other form of spying requires an in-room presence, and is limited to says, tells, or things you would see if you were in-room anyway. 

Combine that with the fact that you can not only trespass across clearly-defined OOC boundaries, but there's literally a 0% chance that you'll be caught, and you have the potential for an infinite number of IC/OOC breaches with absolutely no way to know that it's happening.

Calira

I don't really mind the scope or ease of sapience spying, but I'm concerned that there is a lack of counter-play. Other forms of spying can be countered with simple precautions, but it seems like the only way to avoid Sapience is to strictly convene on ships or in private rooms, which is nowhere near as convenient or accessible as throwing a sigil, limiting who has your puppet, or being wary of the priestly classes in your room. Reinstating the old Bell tattoo functionality would be a great solution.

Sena

Makarios said:

Beds also hard block sapience, yes. I can check other things if there are ones you are curious about as its done on a case by case basis - beds and privacy rooms are handled slightly differently on our end.

Do beds prevent sapience from showing commands, or just block it from being used? I know vodun listen and mind listen used to be the latter (I bugged it years ago but never got a response), you couldn't use them if the target is in a bed, but if the target entered a bed while listen was already active it would continue to work.

Micaelis

Daeir said:

This conversation became a literal fucking joke the moment "what if you were watching the chat of a child" got involved.

I'm out.

That's just because you can't divulge an actual in-game necessity or reasoning for sapience to remain the way it is, other than 1. You're a monk and 2. You bought the artefact. Your obvious personal bias is noted.

I just gave a couple examples, so you can feel free to cherry pick some and ignore the others, or you can feel free to explain to the masses why you think monk should have the single strongest spying ability in the game, with literally no option at a viable counter as every other spying option has, and the only known means to directly access OOC communications. Why is that important to the balance. I'm all ears.

Austere

Micaelis said:

Daeir said:

This conversation became a literal fucking joke the moment "what if you were watching the chat of a child" got involved.

I'm out.

That's just because you can't divulge an actual in-game necessity or reasoning for sapience to remain the way it is, other than 1. You're a monk and 2. You bought the artefact. Your obvious personal bias is noted.

I just gave a couple examples, so you can feel free to cherry pick some and ignore the others, or you can feel free to explain to the masses why you think monk should have the single strongest spying ability in the game, with literally no option at a viable counter as every other spying option has, and the only known means to directly access OOC communications. Why is that important to the balance. I'm all ears.

I can think of at least two counters off the top of my head that dont require me to write any type of encryption script, be in a private room, or be monk.  As someone without the artie, I see no issue with it minus the cases people have already beaten into the ground and mak has noted. 

Micaelis

Onto the useful topic, the bell tattoo didn't reveal how you were being spied on did it? So if you made it so it alerted you to spying (either eavesdrop or vodun or mind listen or sapience or whatever else) you wouldn't reveal the spy, just that you were being targeted. This would still encourage spying, since it would still have a small hurdle to reveal the spy, but at least give people the option to communicate freely with an active check.

Think that would maintain the desire for sapience while still allowing just the smallest amount of counterplay.

Micaelis

Daeir said:

Because they've had it for ten years, it has counters (privacy rooms, opposing monks locking, opposing monks barriering vulnerable targets, the monk being visible in area which is usually abundantly obvious when they're spying), it has pitfalls (high willpower drain which directly attacks the potency of your ability to hold locks in the first place, unreliable uptime on high int/wp targets), and from experience, will take dozens of hours of constant monitoring to actually yield something important in the "spying" context if appropriate measures are taken by the people being spied on.

I've said this twice already, Makarios has mirrored most of these same pitfalls and observations as well.

To denigrate the point of being able to view potentially OOC messages (which by the way is not a point of contention amongst ANYONE here as it currently stands) by bringing in the lofty "consequence" on spying on underage players is such a disingenuous attempt to press a point that I'm literally revolted by the fact it was even considered as a topic to bring up. 

I legitimately can't discern if half of you are pressing some sort of asinine point as some sort of satirical reference that I'm not in on, or whether people are actually this hamfistedly contesting something that's been in the game for decades, on a skill that is centered literally on reading minds.

The argument that it's old therefore it's valid is irrelevant, as I said. Slavery was old, obliterate was old, web axk was old, 200 million gold ship grades were old.

The argument that it has space-specific counters is valid, but isn't optimal in the opinion of most non monk non Artie having people. The idea of a monk countering via locking and barrier only applies to a combat situation, my main contention is someone like you sitting in Targ spying on citizens. Which we both know you've done lol.

The pitfalls are now irrelevant since you dropping lock or having difficulty in maintaining lock is invisible, therefore you just relock without issue. 

You're probably right that it likely takes hours and hours of spying to yield real results which, in my mind, undermines its entire purpose from the point of spying for political or espionage reasons.

Being able to view OOC messages, one thing I said, is a major issue. Issues, OOC clans, things of that nature are a real concern to me, and I assume many others as well. Am I going to lose sleep over it? No, but I'd prefer personally if it wasn't a thing. I can live with it though.

I just think we should try to maintain the combat implications while removing the opportunity as IC OOC trespassing is all. If that's zomg horrible then perhaps I'm just old fashioned.

Jonathin

Yeah, this whole thing about "keep it out of the game" is a crock of shit. Not everyone uses discord and I don't even use skype. I like to get home from work and chat away in ooc clans or talk about my friend's infant kid, which I do via message. There is 0 reason anybody needs to be able to see that shit.

Even if something is clearly marked as ooc, people still gonna try to use that shit ic. Nobody gonna sit there and tell me otherwise because if you were to try, you'd obviously be living in some kind of dreamland. 

Sapience itself isn't really a huge issue. It's the people using it that I have a problem with. There are already enough people out there that have nothing better to do than try to find ways to make you feel like shit about yourself (just do a pastebin search if you don't believe me) because they get a kick out of it. 

Micaelis

I'm down with all that, and I agree that if Proficy pops in he's not going to stay unnoticed for long. Like I said though, I'm not concerned about Proficy, I'm concerned about someone like you. 

We've already had issues arise because of this, and it's true that it can be handled on the city level, but it would just be easier if the integration between an in game ability and OOC were removes in my opinion.

Micaelis

I was monk for a long time, I understand the implications of telepathy and its drains, so save the patronization for someone else. You just went monk like a month ago, so don't think you're Jackie Chan. 

Having difficulty maintaining a lock for hours on end does not equate to a counter from the targets POV, that's a hard limit to the amount of passive spying you can do and, you could always just crook it, a simple and 100 percent Regen to the only passive counter. So even the counter has a counter, and I know it's widely used, because I've been swatting monks all week.