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This war

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  • Kiet
    Kiet Member Posts: 3,263 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I'm glad the war is no longer god-backed, so can we just cancel it or call it a tie, now? I don't care if we're in the lead.

    For the future, I believe what would help is making sure the terms reward winners, rather than punish losers.
  • Kiet
    Kiet Member Posts: 3,263 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited June 2017
    Cooper said:
    Let's not pretend that what Deuc and Sartan said regarding slaves had anything to do with the shitty behavior that came out of this war. It did not.
    Idgaf about slaves, I care about the five real life months where RP would be restricted for a significant population of Mhaldor (and I assume Targossas).

    I'm not saying without that the war would've gone better, but a lot of people are gonna feel extra stress (rather than competitiveness) to win if losing is an extra punishment.
    AntidasJayden
  • Tysandr
    Tysandr Member Posts: 494 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Kiet said:
    making sure the terms reward winners, rather than punish losers.
    Might be same thing.
    "All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."

  • Kiet
    Kiet Member Posts: 3,263 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Not at all, and that's something that's been discussed at length by game designers in interviews/essays/etc.
  • Frederich
    Frederich Member Posts: 1,243 @ - Epic Achaean
    The 10 years of no preaching, and enemies allowed to walk into your city unmolested are, frankly, horrible.

    This means for about 4-5 ooc months, you aren't allowed to have a raid involving that city whatsoever.  Can skirm, sure.  But, by rules, they could walk in, murder folks, and we just can't enemy them/attack them at all.

    I didn't really realize just how long that was, tbh. :(
  • Ahmet
    Ahmet Wherever I wanna beMember Posts: 3,370 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    #BringBackUWMechanics
    Huh. Neat.
  • Kiet
    Kiet Member Posts: 3,263 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Daeir said:
    As if those laws would be abided by anyway. Do you think either side would willingly capitulate 100% as characters, unless explicitly ordered to by their Divine? Nothing short of the Bloodsworn's direct condemnation would've stopped me from ICly invoking the Fifth and going rogue with Aurora soulburn and breathrain cheese to stop our citizens leaving the city, and I can say with 100% certainty that I'd have people alongside me the whole way. Ala Mhigan resistance up in this shit.

    I'd expect nothing less from Mhaldor either on that front.

    No law written by mortals in Achaea is sacred.
    Except that term was explicitly ordered by the gods
  • Antidas
    Antidas Member Posts: 1,504 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I dunno, I might be in the minority but I'm actually pretty happy we got rid of the RP consequences, and am now looking forward to participating in the war -more- because I no longer gaf if we lose. Of course it comes just as I leave for vacation so I'm not gonna have much time to play anyways, but still. Thanks @Sartan @Deucalion, and thanks to everyone else who helped plan this war out.

  • Taryius
    Taryius Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 896 @ - Epic Achaean
    Its hard to balance consequences so people are encouraged to win but also won't be devastated if they lose. 10 years of not preaching and allowing others in, sucks.
  • Shirszae
    Shirszae Santo DomingoMember Posts: 3,509 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I am just watching from the sidelines, but I can definitely understand the people who say they are pretty bummed out and lost all interest about the war now. 

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...


    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

  • Ahmet
    Ahmet Wherever I wanna beMember Posts: 3,370 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    If the consequences of the war changing cause you to lose all interest in the war, you're doing war wrong.
    Huh. Neat.
  • Shirszae
    Shirszae Santo DomingoMember Posts: 3,509 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Ahmet said:
    If the consequences of the war changing cause you to lose all interest in the war, you're doing war wrong.
    The point of war is the consequences of it. Without it, its just the usual raids and skirmishing and whatever else. That happens anyway, everyday. Nothing new.

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...


    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

    KietSiduri
  • Torinn
    Torinn Member Posts: 1,350 @ - Epic Achaean
    Daeir said:
    As if those laws would be abided by anyway. Do you think either side would willingly capitulate 100% as characters, unless explicitly ordered to by their Divine? Nothing short of the Bloodsworn's direct condemnation would've stopped me from ICly invoking the Fifth and going rogue with Aurora worldburn and breathrain cheese to stop our citizens leaving the city, and I can say with 100% certainty that I'd have people alongside me the whole way. Ala Mhigan resistance up in this shit.

    I'd expect nothing less from Mhaldor either on that front.

    No law written by mortals in Achaea is sacred.

    It is however, a disappointing end to a stark inevitability. I said earlier in the thread that capitulating to terms to the point of abandoning the city during sanction is essentially OOC and has not a shred of IC credibility, and I stand firmly vindicated on that point. I had no idea it'd go to this extreme though, damn.
    I am 100% there with you Daeir.  I would have done all sorts of crazy stuff to get around it, including offering myself as a slave instead of the 2k citizens, going to remote locations to preach, etc.
    Deucalion says, "Torinn is quite nice."
    TysandrJayden
  • Skye
    Skye The Duchess BellatereMember, Seafaring Liason Posts: 3,171 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Micaelis said:
    Alrena said:
    Honestly I'm kinda relieved the stakes were lowered and we can have more casual fun skirmishes. I'll agree that in the next attempt, relying more on preplanned battles could be a lot of fun, though I'd hope at different times of the day! Europeans can't do a Nish battle at 3am! Well, it's not good for us anyway. Even if it's high stakes then, all engagements will have a clear ending and allow some breathing room.

    Also yes to Naval battles.
    Pre-scheduled is probably the only way to go at this point, yeah. Also agree that it's nice to be able to tie in Naval things for once.
    I would like to propose that instead of a 2-year or any sort of multi-month war, the future war be decided in what can be described as a stamina-based grief-fest.

    Long drawn out wars that stretch over many weeks tends to wear on people so we should try to implement it like pulling off a band-aid. like a 3-hour 2-city CTF on the weekend. Whoever rageqqs first loses.


  • Kiet
    Kiet Member Posts: 3,263 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Now that there's neither consequences nor rewards for the war, we're left with boring fights where both sides play ultra-defensively for no reason at all.

    It's like watching paint dry, except at least before we'd get something if we didn't pull away. I have 0 interest in the war, either, anymore, and it should honestly get called off or something.
    AodfionnAilea
  • Ahmet
    Ahmet Wherever I wanna beMember Posts: 3,370 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    If you're doing something because of the reward at the end, even something this big, you're doing it wrong. Find a way to do it where people can enjoy it, and where people aren't terrified of fucking it up for their entire faction to the point where nobody wants to participate, and where people are encouraged to just not take part, or to just stop fighting. If you think that's a stupid way to look at a game, especially one where we're all part of a community that (for the most part) doesn't want this game to die, well then you can contain your opinion to the sewers.

    Just my two cents
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    Huh. Neat.
  • Kiet
    Kiet Member Posts: 3,263 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Right, if it was an enjoyable system, it makes sense you'd do it for  no reward, like people playing other competitive games. However, the issue is it's not enjoyable as a system, imo.

    That doesn't mean the attempt wasn't good or that the work isn't appreciated, of course.
    Ahmet
  • Marisella
    Marisella Member Posts: 170 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Why don't you make your own consequences and rewards with what's left of the organised conflict?
  • Mathilda
    Mathilda Member Posts: 902 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    The grass, it is greener on the side you're not standing on.
     <3 
    Zbaco
  • Shirszae
    Shirszae Santo DomingoMember Posts: 3,509 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Antidas said:
    I find it strange that before this, all I ever heard was how people would enjoy the conflict more if the consequences were less severe, because people would be more willing to fight with a smaller chance of winning (I was absolutely one of these people).

    Now that the admins have listened to our complaints and removed the vast RP consequences of losing, all I've heard here is people complaining about how the war no longer has any point and people don't want to participate anymore.

    This community can be so damn hypocritical sometimes haha.
    I think it has to do more with basically pulling the plug on something mid-event so to speak.  While it might have been for the better, I can imagine it feels kinda shitty nonetheless. Sure, you guys can organize something between yourselves, but thats what you were doing from the start and then the gods intervened and now the gods are gone and now you are left on your own devices again.

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...


    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

  • Reyson
    Reyson Member Posts: 808 @ - Epic Achaean
    I also think if the last week hadn't been so up-and-down-y, maybe people would be more interested in continuing just for fun. However, because of how evasive both sides were, I think it drained a lot of the desire to participate from a lot of people, so it being continued for not a whole lot of reason is more a relief, than anything else. 
    Kiet
  • Prythe
    Prythe Member Posts: 545 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Also an outsider. I think the consequences made a lot of sense, but the time period was far too long (as was the duration of the war).

    I don't quite get all the points and how they were set up, but if one could deny points to the "other" side merely by choosing not to engage, that seems a bit mucked up.

    That said, the entire thing was neat from afar, and like others I hope the good is kept, the areas for improvement are improved, and there is another go soon.

    - To love another person is to see the face of G/d
    - Let me get my hat and my knife
    - It's your apple, take a bite
    - Don't dream it ... be it


    Zbaco
  • Xaden
    Xaden Member Posts: 2,315 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    We're still at war right?

    I mean, I was kinda looking forward to lagging out to the point of uselessness on Nishnatoba at stupid o clock on Saturday night...

    all joking aside; it was a great attempt at creating meaningful conflict in a way that curbed the nastier elements of some of achaea's playerbase.

    I, personally, would be very disappointed if it was just abandoned now.
         He is a coward who has to bring two friends as backup to jump people hunting.

    AhmetTitonus
  • Jayden
    Jayden WA, USAMember Posts: 36 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited June 2017
    Cooper said:
    All that has changed are the one term that didn't have any tangible impact in game (the slaves), and the removal of the no preaching/etc that were set by the gods.

    So I guess I'm the really odd one out here, but the matter of the slaves is what got me so emotionally invested. Yeah, I know they're imaginary people that don't even have any effect beyond RPing out 'oh, that's awful'. But I'm a person who can get deeply invested on an emotional level if I let myself, and it's that RP consequence that made the victories so sweet, the sacrifices completely worth it, and the defeats utterly painful. It opened up a wonderful avenue for Jayden to settle in a bit more into her role in Targossas, and to gain yet more zeal in her roles - and as some of her family can attest, she was very, very invested in the outcome of this before now.

    Really, I don't think it will change much of anything on my end. This can absolutely be spun for RP, even if it isn't the way you wanted to see this war turn out. For example, Jayden isn't shrugging it off, she's more zealous afterwards because it removed a chance for her to help in some incredible (in her eyes) work - and it's not like she needed help hating Mhaldor's very existence. With the RP consequences in place, she really had to temper herself in many ways. Soft-spoken as she can be day-to-day, she loves the chance to throw herself into battle with Mhaldorians especially, but she had to cool herself off because if she lost a duel (which let's be real, she usually does) there were serious potential consequences. Seeing her avoidant of conflict was a very bizarre turn borne of necessity. Besides, a Harbinger losing the ability to preach is a kill-me-now level of punishment.

    ITT: Overly-emotional woman overly-invests herself in a nameless fictional populace and spouts off self-important nonsense.

    XadenSiduriTorinnShirszae
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