Jester Class

Xith

Wtf does loki have to do with jester. I'm confused. Moon gives mental affs. And most of the tarots besides aeon/hang aren't useful. Even star doesn't do much for us except unshield people. Which is the reason jester tarot gets addressed so often. Much of it is useless.

We've been hearing about the rework for a while, mice have been guaranteed I think. Itchpowder needs work, and I changed my mind on peels again because jester vs jester is boring enough without avoiding peels completely. But if peels could be powered up in exchange for making bananas a wished-prop, I could get on board.

Fashioning got overfixed a long time ago, and bombs got overfixed recently. Those are our problem areas. Hopefully mice helps the latter.

Kaie

That's why I suggested peels simply not hit the person who cast it, it would still hit another jester. I almost forgot to mention how screwed up puppetry is in regards to this. I've had a LOT of people simply run away at 30 fashions or so and just go hide out in a city or qq to wait for it to decay. Though, that applies to any class really. I could just as easily run to a city and have my limbs reset. The issue is still how slow it is taking off I think. Possibly beefing up Jester tarot would have a bigger impact than removing puppet decay times or lengthening them. Occie tarot is so rough because it has supporting ents and devil stays around for 3 throws instead of 1. I'd say find some rp fitting skill to beef up tarot and this might all change when suicide mice is released giving all jesters access to their loyal mice. I'm not sure how it'll play out since I"ve never had Suicide mice to test it.

Tanris

Fashioning is fine, tbh. It is 100% true someone can run from you and sit in their city for 30 minutes/an hour (I forget which it is) waiting for the fashions to tick down. Comparitively, someone can run to their city, say someone reset my limbs please, and be back in under a minute having fully reset your prep as a knight/bm/monk/whatever, run 3 rooms and diag  to reset your prep as an apostate/occie/whatever, etc. Fashion classes actually have it much better in this regard.

Jester defence is a bit difficult. This something very similar to occultist: they have an absolutely outstanding defence in one v one, because hangedman/priestess (and backflip, somersault, etc in jesters case), universe, hermit all act together as a pretty flawless active defence. This is something I like, personally. It isn't a matter of "I can stand here and this monk will not be able to kill me without a full prep because I am wearing my 80/80 armour", it requires you to actually do something to maintain an actually equivalent level of defence. The area it obviously all falls apart in is teams, as that is where pure mitigation matters a great deal more (hence one reason why knight/dragon/etc are so amazing for melee). Occultist has simulacrum to help with this. It is impractical to keep it up in an extended one v one fight, but the karma cost is generally acceptable for short melees if you see one coming. I would not be averse to jester getting something similar, but obviously they lack a hardcoded mechanic similar to karma/essence/devotion which imposes a set maximum useage (mana cost does not count, and shame on you if you were going to say it does).
 
Tl;dr on wall of text: Jester could get something for teams maybe  as they do suffer pretty badly in that regard, but they do not need anything for one v one defence. No class with just somersault and an icewall ring should even be considered for buffs in that regard, let alone one with a bananas-style ability.

Jester could use something for offense. Much like several other classes, previous perceptions of op from years ago have pretty heavily coloured players forum-views upon whether they should be given upgrades or not. People still tend to colour jester with the brush from back when an occultist could order entourage kill target, fling aeon, and go afk while ents finished the job. The reality is Jester is still a solid class, but nowhere near the top of the pk foodchain when going up against someone with proper curing/a clue. However, there's nothing crippling wrong with the class: its still viable, it just needs a few tweaks (like most classes that have problems. Sweeping changes are rarely necessary).

Tvistor

In my experience, 'simply running away to hide out in a city' works against nearly every class.

Xith

It works on every class, but limb prep vs. the fashions for a slowlock (69) are different stories. Not even mentioning the force puppet concussion problem. Which essentially means I'll have to start unwielding my puppet after every balance and wield to do stuff.

Puppet momentum takes longer to build than anything else.

Tanris

Eh, I disagree. Compitent use of parry and the like can make limb prep take an extreme amount of time. It becomes exponentially harder the better your opponent is defensively, whereas fashion remains a constant. That is a limiting factor at low and low mid tier. Its also a huge advantage that should not be underestimated at high tier. 69 fashions is what, 172 seconds (assuming 2.5 bal on fashion here, may be incorrect) with no truefashion (everyone who fights has truefashion). That is your entire prep against anyone at all. I'm pretty sure monks/infernals would kill for that kind of prep time at high tier.

Mishgul

it took me 20 minutes to prep rangor for one vivisect once.

Synbios

It took me 40 minutes to prep a delicious and nutritious breakfast for me and my mum, dad and brothers.

Iocun

And they probably still survived it.

Sylvance

Mishgul said:

it took me 20 minutes to prep rangor for one vivisect once.

You suck.

Xith

Tanris said:

Eh, I disagree. Compitent use of parry and the like can make limb prep take an extreme amount of time. It becomes exponentially harder the better your opponent is defensively, whereas fashion remains a constant. That is a limiting factor at low and low mid tier. Its also a huge advantage that should not be underestimated at high tier. 69 fashions is what, 172 seconds (assuming 2.5 bal on fashion here, may be incorrect) with no truefashion (everyone who fights has truefashion). That is your entire prep against anyone at all. I'm pretty sure monks/infernals would kill for that kind of prep time at high tier.

They wouldn't kill for it if their target walked away for a half hour and they had to start over. Keep in mind that we have to fashion while also hindering, curing, evading and not dying. So it's not a flat 172 most of the time.
The problem is starting the fight only to restart the fight again later, which is what makes Mark pointless for jester/shaman. My classlead idea for fashion needs examination. Not asking for perma-fashions again. Just less decay.

Garao

When the hell did you need 69 fashions for a slow lock. Tanris already mentioned the point of people simply 'running away' during fights - This is the same for the vast majority of classes and most definitely not unique to Jester. Also puppetry isn't exactly an ability to be jumping people with. Jester is still pretty good at jumping people for contracts. Sure, you're going to have a bit of a difficult time against the very good people - but that would be the same whether you're a Jester or not. 

There isn't really anything wrong with fashioning itself. Nor jester tarot imo.

To make Jester more interesting fashions shouldn't decay at all and there should be an ability within heartstop that works like Heartstop from doll/puppet. This and killing the fashioner is the only way to erase fashions yourself and get rid of the doll/puppet. 

Yeah.

Eld

Xith said:

Tanris said:

Eh, I disagree. Compitent use of parry and the like can make limb prep take an extreme amount of time. It becomes exponentially harder the better your opponent is defensively, whereas fashion remains a constant. That is a limiting factor at low and low mid tier. Its also a huge advantage that should not be underestimated at high tier. 69 fashions is what, 172 seconds (assuming 2.5 bal on fashion here, may be incorrect) with no truefashion (everyone who fights has truefashion). That is your entire prep against anyone at all. I'm pretty sure monks/infernals would kill for that kind of prep time at high tier.

They wouldn't kill for it if their target walked away for a half hour and they had to start over. Keep in mind that we have to fashion while also hindering, curing, evading and not dying. So it's not a flat 172 most of the time.
The problem is starting the fight only to restart the fight again later, which is what makes Mark pointless for jester/shaman. My classlead idea for fashion needs examination. Not asking for perma-fashions again. Just less decay.

But as @Tanris pointed out, target walking away and undoing all your prep is a problem for ANY class. Everyone has to deal with hindering, curing, evading, and not dying while they do whatever prep they need to do. The advantage of fashioning over limb prep is that you don't have to deal with all the things that can prevent a limb hit from hitting, which, in the hands of a skilled opponent, can drag out limb prep to far longer than the time it takes to fashion a doll.

Tvistor

I am not seeing the difference there. Knights and monks have the same problem, with the added issue that instead of having to wait half an hour for the decay, their opponent only has to wait until someone on CWHO helps them shatter a limb.

I think the point Tanris was making was that although the prep is not a flat 172 seconds, it can be extremely difficult to prevent and there isn't much variation (which is why it's a bad thing at mid tier, where people make mistakes frequently enough to go from alive to dead within 15 seconds, let alone 172). At the high tiers, like Tenemara vs Carmain, the fight was more like two people just sitting there until someone got so bored they decided not to shield on hunt.

Naga gank squad takes like 30 seconds prep if HWHO has competent people online, and the best part is there is a 30%-ish chance they kill a slave instead of you when you fail. It's like a starburst other people need to bash for.

Cooper

It took me right around 25 combos/sweepkick combos to prep Rexak for two leg breaks and a torso break.

Most people it would take 9 or 12 sweepkick combos to setup like that.

Freaking jesters

Tvistor

I have never seen a jester forced to use sweepkick to bypass parry in my life. So overpowered.

Xith

Garao said:

When the hell did you need 69 fashions for a slow lock.

Command tree (1)
mangle leg (6)
concussion (30)
slow (10)
Imbibe kalmia (1)
Imbibe gecko (20)

So technically 68, but if they still had speed up, there's 1 more for stripping it. or to add slike in

The difference in running is that I could run from a monk then re-engage at a later time and die in the first 30 seconds (depending on the monk). Or get surprised by a runie and his thurisaz. Start to finish is consistent no matter the time the fight started. Fashioning already adds time to that. So they go to an area I can't enter, and slowlock or not, can't jitb.

Start the fight over a day later. Increase my own chance of dying from repeat engagements. Pointless.

Asmodron

not sure why jesters have a skill which requires poisons, something they have no way of gaining unless they know a serpent. The Shamans one makes sense since they are cursing the target via the doll. Perhaps jesters should be able to tarot their target through the doll.

(OP Death Tarot w/ puppet QQ ) heheh.

Aktillum

At mid-tiers a damage class can kill you during the course of the prepping via the damage alone, probably not so much at high tier. But whether it's mid-tier or high-tier, Jester prep remains the same: guaranteed prep, but 1 or 2 shots at making it work, with so many variables that can go wrong. I felt like, as a Monk, I could always keep atleast 1 or 2 limbs prepped, whereas with Puppetry it's a constant reset if I don't get the lock. Which is good design, imo.

Garao

Xith said:

Garao said:

When the hell did you need 69 fashions for a slow lock.

Command tree (1)
mangle leg (6)
concussion (30)
slow (10)
Imbibe kalmia (1)
Imbibe gecko (20)

So technically 68, but if they still had speed up, there's 1 more for stripping it. or to add slike in

The difference in running is that I could run from a monk then re-engage at a later time and die in the first 30 seconds (depending on the monk). Or get surprised by a runie and his thurisaz. Start to finish is consistent no matter the time the fight started. Fashioning already adds time to that. So they go to an area I can't enter, and slowlock or not, can't jitb.

Start the fight over a day later. Increase my own chance of dying from repeat engagements. Pointless.

Here is where your comparisons are falling short: You seem to be stuck in the mindset that when you are jumping someone (As illustrated by your other class comparisons) you MUST use Puppetry? This is completely counter productive when jumping someone as a Jester and doesn't really factor into Jester as a classes ability to jump people. Sure Jesters aren't the greatest at it, but they're a damn sight better than people are giving them credit for. That isn't a fault of the class, but the people using the class. 

Secondly, regarding the slow lock thing. That is ONE single way to slow lock. It's also the highest cost fashion-wise bar the inclusion of double leg mangles to stop running and additional illusions etcetera. There are other ways to do so without using Slow and Mangle in Puppetry. You have a faster Slow. Why are you even using puppet to strip speed/aeon. I know Aeon doesn't last forever, but there's not much point using it in the setup when you can increase fashions when they're f-ed over and then Puppet Slow after. Again, this is not a fault of the class. It's the people using the class.

Dartega

Garao said:

 Again, this is not a fault of the class. It's the people using the class.

Jester reskinning on some of the abilities would be awesome, but this current round of jesters trying to offer combat revamps are mind bogglingly bad for the most part.

Kaie

I have to agree with Tanris fashioning is fine because a runner is just that. He's going to sit in the city regardless of your class, it just takes longer for a puppeteer to be waited out since you can't reset fashions like limbs. Tanris nailed it right on the head when he said it's just no where near top of the foodchain against some one with a clue. That's truly where Jester falls short. Jester seems to be still looked at as that class who could fashion and obliterate. Though, that's been years since it was stripped out. It just needs a few upgrades and tweaks to level it out. Something to increase initial offense would be nice and maybe work out a few randomness issues but other than that I wouldn't do too much to the class. I nag about it sometimes it's usually because of the randomness or lacking offense in some area. Randomness mucking up an otherwise reasonable setup is kind of annoying.

Zeon

Iocun said:

Zeon said:

Aktillum said:

Jesters should probably never use Moon because of the affs it gives. This would be far more unpredictable (like Jesters should be) and cause folks to diagnose, and who knows, it might stick something actually useful with a devilmark'd aeon.

devilmark is an occultism ability. also adding more randomness to combat is a bad idea, we're trying to move away from that, it's not fun (look at a lot of the classleads in the last ~2 years, especially the ones to random-esc classes like occie). no one wants to fling aeon 200 times (100 times to strip speed and 100 times waiting on the devil to proc loki and waiting for the loki to proc asthma/stupidity).

It wouldn't be worth it to diagnose off a Jester-induced loki anyways. Most afflictions are harmless when facing a jester, and the few that are of potential danger are easily checked against. Asthma shouldn't get stuck from loki anyways if you have a somewhat decent system that does some default checks.

@Iocun His idea was a tarot that gave loki afflictions, so you could devil aeon + loki together hoping for an asthma. 

@Tanris I disagree with your statement about jesters lacking defensively in group combat. You list all these great escape abilities in regards to 1v1, yet bring up the fact that jesters can't tank excessive damage when talking about their group defensive capabilities. In my opinion group combat is where escape abilities really show their potential, where as they are often overkill in a 1v1. Universe alone can make you nearly unkillable in regards to group combat. (also quick writhe/arrowcatching/somersault, if you're the reckless type)

Beya

RE: Group combat. Anyone remember Falgorn?

He raided the CIJ estate once and he used puppetry to summon and push different troops in and about the area. In addition, priestess, magician and fool tarot will keep your team alive.

Jesters are not built for the offensive, but the defensive in group combat. Yank people out of the way, heal them and send them back in.

Asmodron

I find Jesters to be pretty helpful in groups. Enjoying them so far ^.^

Kaie

Yeah, it's pretty decent for assisting in ways like that. I rarely do group pk though. I hate the spam of it all and everyone trying to be leader and calling out unnecessary things. 

Kaie

I'm just gonna wait until Suicide Mice is unleashed and see what happens then.

Asmodron

Im actually hoping that gets changed...I've seen it used before, it is pretty subpar (not to mention for an ability that takes that much setup (capture mice, train for 3 days, etc.), you would expect something much more grandiose

Xith

Well, it wasn't about 'jumping'. It was about the fight being reset. Vs serpent, for example. Without mangling a leg or two, we're in a bad spot. Takes a number of fashions to get into a good position against a serpent, and little in pranks/tarot will stop their evade.

Having a useless skillset that way isn't fun. No point in fashioning if they can wait out the prep. Which is why fashioning needs revisiting. I didn't say one fashion should give all 100 fashions, just that it needs to be balanced back to reflect the nature of the skill.

Iocun

Yes, that's what I was replying to. One of his statements was that jester-loki might cause people to diag, and I said that it shouldn't.