Jester Class

Eurulis

Jester fits well enough, though some of those abilities need some serious cleaning up in terms of flavour.

Though, to throw a bone to the jesters, they really need to make Suicidemice available to all Jesters if they haven't already. No other class has a requirement that actively takes an ability away from you without allowing you to compensate for it somehow except maybe alchemist. Possibly forestals now, too, with the whole city-forest split thing. The difference is, Jesters would need to join the CIJ. Forestals/alchemists would need to be in a city or not be in a city. At least make them available for purchase or something.

Xith

Katzchen said:

Aktillum said:

This thread's a bit of a joke. It sounds like everyone who hates Jester wants them to be a more serious class to fit your serious character RP, because you all roleplay a bunch of badasses or something. You're the people who do INCLINE instead of HELLO, because your character is so edgy and mysterious.

This thread makes me sad. I want to go punch Druid novices in the face now, they're always referring to people as "mommy & daddy" IG which I think is a completely stupid way to roleplay. Delete bloodlines plz.

Actually we want them to be more neutral so that you can choose your RP, you aren't forced into this stupid clown act.

I already covered that. Giraffes exist for Runaway and the less-than-useful STEP INTO TREES. The reason they are balloons is because then you can still backflip while mounted, which isn't possible with a 200 pound animal squeezed between your legs.

Honestly, the whole argument is like me saying I want to be able roleplay a sexy Apostate and slushy rot-skin totally ruins that for me.

(Even if it is kind of erotic.)

Katzchen

Xith said:

Katzchen said:

Aktillum said:

This thread's a bit of a joke. It sounds like everyone who hates Jester wants them to be a more serious class to fit your serious character RP, because you all roleplay a bunch of badasses or something. You're the people who do INCLINE instead of HELLO, because your character is so edgy and mysterious.

This thread makes me sad. I want to go punch Druid novices in the face now, they're always referring to people as "mommy & daddy" IG which I think is a completely stupid way to roleplay. Delete bloodlines plz.

Actually we want them to be more neutral so that you can choose your RP, you aren't forced into this stupid clown act.

I already covered that. Giraffes exist for Runaway and the less-than-useful STEP INTO TREES. The reason they are balloons is because then you can still backflip while mounted, which isn't possible with a 200 pound animal squeezed between your legs.

Honestly, the whole argument is like me saying I want to be able roleplay a sexy Apostate and slushy rot-skin totally ruins that for me.

(Even if it is kind of erotic.)

I reckon infernals/apostates are pretty sexy

Aktillum

Making suicidemice available to all Jesters isn't a bad idea, it'd just need a good event. Be kind of dumb if mouse-brainwashing centers started popping up for public use, I'd like to think the CiJ has kind of a patent on the techniques. They're a pretty neutral House already, anyone from any city can join.

Although to be completely honest, if you guys really want to make Jesters into a 100% performance artist class, you should keep suicidemice as a CiJ perk because the CiJ do a really great job on atleast trying to enforce the performance artist roleplay, with efftons of house requirements on writing skits and plays and performing them in front of live audiences.

I really think people just want Jester changed so they can take advantage of the awesome PK potential without feeling silly, but that's missing the point of the class. I think we should look to Bonko for inspiration as the ideal Jester. So badass, yet so utterly lulz. The fact that Jester skills are so silly just cements them as the ultimate griefing class. Dude, you just got your head bit off by a dude wielding a rubber ducky.

Trey

Katzchen said:

Xith said:

Katzchen said:

Aktillum said:

This thread's a bit of a joke. It sounds like everyone who hates Jester wants them to be a more serious class to fit your serious character RP, because you all roleplay a bunch of badasses or something. You're the people who do INCLINE instead of HELLO, because your character is so edgy and mysterious.

This thread makes me sad. I want to go punch Druid novices in the face now, they're always referring to people as "mommy & daddy" IG which I think is a completely stupid way to roleplay. Delete bloodlines plz.

Actually we want them to be more neutral so that you can choose your RP, you aren't forced into this stupid clown act.

I already covered that. Giraffes exist for Runaway and the less-than-useful STEP INTO TREES. The reason they are balloons is because then you can still backflip while mounted, which isn't possible with a 200 pound animal squeezed between your legs.

Honestly, the whole argument is like me saying I want to be able roleplay a sexy Apostate and slushy rot-skin totally ruins that for me.

(Even if it is kind of erotic.)

I reckon infernals/apostates are pretty sexy


Hi there.

Sigge

I always thought Beya was awesome in all honesty. I've never met Bonko or Sobriquet, though they seem to be legends or something. I DO know there is a Jester in the CIJ that I absolutely HATE (I was around when he first started out, I really didn't like him then either), and is the only reason (other than I suck at performance stuff, joke, riddles, etc.) that I dont make a Jester and join the CIJ.

Boosteya

Beya IS awesome.

If I had any interest in combat whatsoever, I would SO be sending random tells to Bonko (since I can't tell when he's in realms) of 'Teach me? I love you!' (or random stuff along those lines) because he's the Jester-class Tanris, in the combat sense.

I've met Sobriquet, but haven't seen enough of him to feel comfortable making any comment about him that's relevant to this thread.

Garao

Bonko couldn't kill a fly if it knew how to tumble AFTER OPENING DOORS ( with its wings ). No offence, love you bonko.

Antidas

Re: @Bonko and @Sobriquet, they are well known for fairly different things. Bonko was well known for basically being an absolute griefer and a decent combatant, while Sobriquet was known for being a skilled combat jester who was not a griefer. And yes, I do/did know both fairly well, although Sobriquet wouldn't know me by this name :P

Xith

Aktillum said:

 

I really think people just want Jester changed so they can take advantage of the awesome PK potential without feeling silly, but that's missing the point of the class. I think we should look to Bonko for inspiration as the ideal Jester. So badass, yet so utterly lulz. The fact that Jester skills are so silly just cements them as the ultimate griefing class. Dude, you just got your head bit off by a dude wielding a rubber ducky.

Like this. Was exactly my point.
Legendary jesters are Bonko for badassery and getting shrubbed repeatedly. Beya for his performance/rp and neat little games. And Sobriquet cause he's all refined and stuff, and old, and his name is cool.

Delphinus

Aktillum said:

This thread's a bit of a joke. It sounds like everyone who hates Jester wants them to be a more serious class to fit your serious character RP, because you all roleplay a bunch of badasses or something. You're the people who do INCLINE instead of HELLO, because your character is so edgy and mysterious.

It's not that our characters are serious, it's just that the story is a more serious one.

Pretend there's like, the Siege of Tasur'ke or something. The merrows are rising from the sea and joining their Occult allies in taking the Helix Crystal, a relic guarded by the Knights Templar, and then Tingle floats in on a balloon. Story ruined.

Aktillum

I think it's a bit of an exaggeration to say that your entire roleplaying experience is ruined by someone riding a balloon. They're really not as anachronistic as you think, unless we're debating over the material used. Very early balloons were made out of things like pig's bladder. 

How's that for your mental image? Tasur'ke being sieged and Tingle floats in on a pig's bladder.

Asmodron

Aktillum said:

I think it's a bit of an exaggeration to say that your entire roleplaying experience is ruined by someone riding a balloon. They're really not as anachronistic as you think, unless we're debating over the material used. Very early balloons were made out of things like pig's bladder. 

How's that for your mental image? Tasur'ke being sieged and Tingle floats in on a pig's bladder.

hmm as interesting as that is, It just feels like your trying to find a some excuse for Jesters having some actual serious RP potential when in fact they are just...annoying.

Sorry Aktillum but you just cant justify ever ability in the Jester kit as having some depth behind it (have you seen the Run away ability??).

They just need a remodeling to be taken seriously in any way.

Nakari

I really don't get any of the reasoning for not changing the flavor a bit. Like, if you enjoy jesters now, you could easily continue playing one exactly like it, you might just have to toss in a few more emotes. If you wanted to play something different, you could do that too.

Can anyone list an actual harm in making the jester abilities a bit less silly in the skills themselves?

Aktillum

This is just going to go in circles of "they're annoying" - "They're meant to be" - "Thats a dumb excuse, they're still annoying" - "Your face is annoying".

I don't agree that a class based on overt silliness is a bad thing, nor do I think that the class needs to be transformed into some tightropes and trampolines circus act to be taken seriously. The class isn't meant to be taken seriously. It's meant for people who want to roleplay silly characters, and I'm sorry that it's one of the best PK classes in the game, but that's not a reason to try and scrap the whole thing because you think it's dumb. 

Like I said earlier, it seems most people on the anti-Jester side of the argument would never play a Jester character, and you want to get rid of them because people who play Jesters can be annoying. Or, you secretly want to play a Jester, but like fat girls and scooters, they're only fun until your friends see you riding one.

Nakari said:

Can anyone list an actual harm in making the jester abilities a bit less silly in the skills themselves?

Take your pick, personally I think just changing the bop message would be fine. Not everything has a nose!

Handspring          Leap at your foes in neighboring rooms.

Props               Wish for the props that every good jester needs.

Balloons            Float to the skies with balloons.

Slipperiness        Let your bad self shine on through.

Bop                 Bop your enemies with a blackjack.

Giraffes            Twist a balloon into a giraffe. Wheee!

Backflip            Flip over obstructions like a monkey on kola.

Hocuspocus          Cast coloured illusions to dazzle those about you.

Runaway             And thou didst beat a brave and hasty retreat.

Concussionbomb      Momentarily stun everyone in the room.

Butterflybomb       Blast people from the skies and trees.

Balloonhandoff      Launch your foes to the clouds with a big red balloon!

Backhandspring      Leap out of the room striking someone on the way out.

Balancing           You're like a cat, you are.

Smokebomb           Choke all in the room with a plume of smoke.

Juggling            Damn, you're good.

Webbomb             Explode strands of rope to bind everyone in the room.

Acrobatics          Leap and bounce to make yourself a difficult target to hit.

Badjoke             It's everyone ELSE that has the bad sense of humour!

Mickey              Slip some poor sucker a mickey.

Traps               The ability to search for traps in your location.

Disarm              Attempt to disarm a trap.

Graffiti            Doesn't everyone deserve to share your wisdom?

Somersault          Quickly somersault past obstructions, even when bound.

Arrowcatch          Pluck arrows from the air with the greatest of ease.

Bananas             Litter the floor with slippery banana peels.

Firecracker         Construct festive firecrackers.

Itchpowder          Uurch...ergh! *scratch scratch* Arrgh! *scratch scratch*

Dustbomb            Numb the sense of your victims with a bomb.

Jack-in-the-Box     An innocent musical toy with a vicious bite!

Timers              Give your bombs a delayed effect.

Suicidemice         Brainwash mice to carry bombs on their backs. Groovy.

Asmodron

If someone wants to roleplay silly then all they have to do...is roleplay silly. There are alot of "silly' people in the game. A class doesnt have to be themed to be silly, angry, heroic, etc. just so people that enjoy that RP can play it. Take Sylvans, their abilities are very neutral in theme and we have seen them over a wide spectrum, from chaotic to evil to nature to neutral.

Delphinus

Thing is, in a serious story, "they're meant to be [annoying]" is not really doing them any favours. All it's doing is detracting from the virtual world. And while you can say "They're just RP-ing badly!" all you want, the truth is that the flavour of the class explicitly encourages that to happen.

Mishgul

it's not necessarily bad RP, it's just annoying for certain players to see it. 

Beya

As someone who has been in the CIJ and a Jester for 130 IG years, and active for 120 of those years, I think it's time for me to weigh in.

The CIJ is in desperate need of a do-over. Perhaps even on the Shallam levels.

I have put so much into trying to fix the CIJ's perception. I have travelled from London to LA to meet with the then HL to change the house hall description. When I arrived we did this over the course of four days straight. I have written HHELP scrolls on roleplay, rules, proper ethos and loopholes to kick out morons. We have changed HELP NEWCOMERS CIJ to be less lulzy and more instructive. We have changed the house titles from 'Rubber Ducky' to 'Mischievite' and many other little bits and pieces which aren't coming to me now.

Bonko was one of the best things to happen to the house. Not for the stupid reasons everyone knows him for, but the genuine improvements he made and had planned for the house. That is, until he went understandably and justifiably nuts at the futility of changing something that didn't want to change.

Changing a house is very hard to do, especially when the house members don't want you to change it. The whole 'don't be a Greyface' aspect has held back improvements, and it's taken my best effort to trample this into the ground. "Don't act like a moron." vs "Don't be so Greyfaced! Silliness never hurt anyone!". The history of the house is silly. Erisian Chaos was silly. Silvestri was silly.

And still, after changing the problematic things, people complain about those things which we don't have any more. They complain about a groping closet which was taken away four years ago (for the pure reason that it was [swearing redacted] awful).

Essentially, the denizens, the estate and the history needs to be wiped from memory, the Ty Beirdd and the CIJ need to come together in some kind of travelling troupe (or to be pitted against each other. There's a lovely rivalry there which can be teased forward). Or they could have a house hall in all cities which changes on alternate days or a big tent they can unfurl every full moon or something which promotes an ethos of travel and acting and performance and something to aspire to on the grand stage. 

One of the biggest mistakes (and admittedly one of my own) is the strength of the estate security, which has limited our interaction with others. Having those amazing wars (which we never won) was something to write about. On the flip side, being PK'd again and again once somebody got into the estate because nobody could fight back was piss-poor roleplay.

In essence, and most realistically, for something like this to happen it would require at least three people to be entirely motivated to play the game and take it on as a full time job. No, this person is not you with an alt. The alts killed our house so bad last time this conversation came up and we ended up keeping all the people who thought "lulzy is best" which in turn made it worse. The other aspect that hurt our house was poor novice retention when they realised there was more to the CIJ than hocuspocusing at crossroads.

The best thing to ever happen to our house has been the Divine patrons. Scarlatti put so much into the house with his help for the Great Show of Delos which more than 30 individual people had planned for within at least a hundred in-game years. I just can't put into words how much that was of value. It was at that point the house really shined and people saw the weight it could carry. I want that back, but putting so much stress onto one Divine shouldn't be the way to do it.

As to the actual topic of conversation RE:Jester flavour, @Tanris is absolutely right. Don't make the Jester flavour text into some sort of penny horror IT rip-off or some house of horrors nonsense. Make it bland, open and acrobatics based. I've sent my suggested fixes to Tecton, and I suggest you do too.

The rework for Jesters has been in the pipeline for at least two years now and someone needs to call a plumber. There have been important coding fixes and events to run. It happens.

I'm going to bed now.

TL;DR Stop arguing the same things as we did four years ago. I'm tired of it.

Beya

P.s. Major shout out to @Blackharp, @Sheetaa, @Sillias, @Knucker, @Cacilia and @Eilethil, all who have made the entire experience of the CIJ worth my time.

To clarify, I'm not ever going to give up on the CIJ and will continue it into its next iteration when it comes. People need to be more patient and tolerant.

EDIT: It is further to note that such changes cannot and should not be forced onto the CIJ, but should come naturally. You can't just kill off the house denizens or chuck them back into Bopa and seal it up. That's like forcing a transvestite to wear jeans. I'm sure there's a solution somewhere.

Beya

-double post-

Amunet

This is a jester:

This is not a jester:

These are also not jesters:

And this isn't a jester, either:

Medieval and Renaissance fools were sanctioned by nobility for the purpose of entertainment. They occupied a place of prestige in royal courts, and were the only ones who were permitted to openly mock or criticise a monarch. They specialised in political and cultural satire, not candy moustaches and tired Monty Python references. They often doubled as masters of secrets - spies, informants, sowers of dissent. Some of them would even advise their masters (or their master's enemies) in matters of war or politics. 

As for their entertainment duties, Jesters were not wholly limited to humour - they would also sing and dance, act, read poetry or prose, play instruments, pantomime, puppeteer, perform acrobatics or magic tricks ... the list goes on. Jesters were a veritable one-man show. There was depth to the content of their performances, as well - ribaldry and scatological jokes certainly played a part, but they didn't comprise the whole of a good jester's subject matter.

Historical jesters were both funny and conniving; their roles, as well as the topics of their performances, were both light and heavy. They were an integral and interesting part of court life, and in most cases, the people who dismissed them as dim-witted often found themselves all the sorrier for having done so. The Jester class in Achaea doesn't call this to mind. Jester abilities, both in what they do and the way they are written, remind me more of carnival clowns. At best, "carnival clown" is the image people who RP Jesters tend to portray. On average, however, the most they tend to achieve is "creepy family restaurant clown who is probably a pedophile". At their worst, they RP the last three of the images above.

Discussion of Jester RP is a thread of its own, so I might go start one in the Scarlattan Theatre rather than getting into it here, if someone hasn't already done so. TL;DR summary, I don't care, personally, if someone wants to play a lighthearted character. My problem is with the fact that the Jester class is quite jarring in a high fantasy environment, and that its more questionable elements attract the people who give the class (and the poor CIJ) its less than desirable reputation. It does a disservice to people like @Beya and @Sobriquet, who have tried to break away from the grease-paint-and-rainbow-wigs stereotype.

Asmodron

I've got your back Beya!

Let's do this motha

Blujixapug

Suicide mice are pretty much the best ability in this game. You use cheese as bait to fish for a mouse. Then you brainwash it into doing your bidding. Then you strap a bomb to its back. That's just. There's nothing better.

Katzchen

"creepy family restaurant clown who is probably a pedophile"

This is exactly what Xith always reminded me of when I was Hashani... 

Xith

Achaea is a high fantasy environment, and jesters are actually a magic class, not just acrobatics. Balloon giraffes typically can't sprint on their own. It's bringing magic to a performance art such as balloon art. Puppet performance is tied in with the Vodun skillset to control opponents that way. We still 'laugh darkly' when we add our 50+ fashions.

"Hocus pocus" desperately needs its flavour text changed to something less hammy. I've never liked that from the start.

I'd like to see a marotte offered as an alternative to the standard blackjack, which is why I had to customise mine.

There are obviously bits and pieces that need reworking, but for the most part, we don't care. And that's part of the beauty of jester too. It's the middle finger class.
Badjoke                It's everyone ELSE that has the bad sense of humour!

 

I don't perceive the Pranks skillset as a far cry from this archetype.

So if you have a problem with killer clowns, SHUT. UP.
So queue up your dislikes. Cause contrary to popular belief, we're not just here to entertain.

Amunet

This was all I got out of @Xith's post:

Macros containing cursing still contain cursing. Sorry! To preserve the meaning of the post, the replaced macro could be summarized as: a strange-looking clown wondering bemusedly and in a mildly aggrieved fashion how roleplaying works.

So, I give up. Sorry, @Beya, but it looks like you're fighting a losing battle. 

Delphinus

Xith said:

Pranks and jesters are magic. It's like this:

[Harley Quinn and the Joker]

ok

Xith

Delphinus said:

Xith said:

Pranks and jesters are magic. It's like this:

[Harley Quinn and the Joker]

ok

Abraham Lincoln said:

Four score and seven years ago, that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.

Tvistor

The pro-jester arguments make me want to [redacted] out [redacted] a teaspoon and three [redacted] flamingos. (or at least most of them do)

Aktillum said:

Making suicidemice available to all Jesters isn't a bad idea, it'd just need a good event. Be kind of dumb if mouse-brainwashing centers started popping up for public use, I'd like to think the CiJ has kind of a patent on the techniques. They're a pretty neutral House already, anyone from any city can join.

No, no, no. The dumb part is mouse-brainwashing centers exist. As captivated as I was initially by the concept of mice consigning themselves to humorous oblivion at the behest of their jester overlords, the novelty wore off to be replaced with incredulity and a deep-seated conviction that Tom and Jerry were omni-trans jesters.

The only argument I can see for jesters to exist in their current incarnation is "They already exist and a (minority, apparently) certain group of people think that having class skills so utterly illogical (by Achaean standards, where I can dance while paralyzed and a bath tub holds as many people as a grand hall) is hilarious" , and is even more so when you can get kills with that skillset.

If the jester class didn't exist right now, I don't think there's any way in hell administration would implement it again as it exists now. There is a tiny, tiny handful of jesters that can roleplay legitimate entertainers, and even they would benefit from changes to the class.

I mean, balloon giraffes, mind-controlled mice and badjoke? Next to the current deicide that's positively slapstick.

I would quote everything said that was pro-jester ability but new forum quotes are hard to use. Suffice it to say that, like every other class, jesters don't need absurd abilities to give it 'the finger'. Every other class  gives you the finger in more traditional, wholesome, family ways. Like vivisecting you, damning you to hell or killing you with a jack-in-the... hold on, one of those doesn't belong.