Jester Class

Xith

Actually I've never played D&D and sort of like my Achaea as it is.

@Nakari
"Shamanism is a practice that involves a practitioner reaching altered states of consciousness in order to encounter and interact with the spirit world. A shaman is a person regarded as having access to, and influence in the world of benevolent and malevolent spirits, who typically enters into a trance state during a ritual, and practices divination and healing."

I've never played WoW either.

Sounds like you guys want Achaea to be something other than Achaea, and Achaea has jesters. Good day.

Delphinus

All this "Aha but what if X-strawman I THOUGHT SO HAHA I'M RIGHT" is making me laugh. It smacks of a weird and juvenile desperation.

Of course you like jesters. You continue to play the class. Both Achaea and its active playerbase have been evolving in a certain direction, though, and the current jester flavour is an uncomfortable throwback to an era of different (or by today's views, lower) standards. You are entitled to your opinions, but understand that they're based on a style that's obsolete.

If you want tongue-in-cheek camp, there's always Lusternia.

Xith

Delphinus said:

All this "Aha but what if X-strawman I THOUGHT SO HAHA I'M RIGHT" is making me laugh. It smacks of a weird and juvenile desperation.

Of course you like jesters. You continue to play the class. Both Achaea and its active playerbase have been evolving in a certain direction, though, and the current jester flavour is an uncomfortable throwback to an era of different (or by today's views, lower) standards. You are entitled to your opinions, but understand that they're based on a style that's obsolete.

If you want tongue-in-cheek camp, there's always Lusternia.

I'm not only active playerbase, but also comparatively recent (2009). Conclusion to the thread, Jester isn't going to evolve out of itself. Whether or not members of the class are well-looked-upon, it is representative of a type of people that will always exist. Banning "silliness" outright isn't going to please any more people that it will disappoint. I know I wouldn't want to be part of Greychaea, just as people like you already don't want me a part of it.

Not everybody wants to be forced into their seriousness robes. Some still have the spark of quirky personality. And maybe the class's flavour pushes that out a little, but classes often define characters the same way cities and orders and other things do. A couple of pages ago it was mentioned that people want to have the mechanical awesomeness of jester without being forced into a role. That seems to be it. I'd love to be an Apostate, but I couldn't stand to be Mhaldorian where laughter is frowned upon and so on.

Point one, if you want to defy your class's theme, I'm pretty sure you're free to, but point two, don't act like it can't be done.

Sylvance

Xith said:

As someone just said, jester isn't new to the sword & sorcery theme either. Gauntlet had jesters.

Jesters don't ruin anybody's RP or "immersion" unless they say things that are directly OOC, and given that there are Houses that use japanese titles and latin titles floating all over the place, I think you just have to grin and bear it. Pun intended.

this has got to be a troll post

Nim

This argument is very weird. It sounds like there's a group of people who wants Jesters to be smoothed out so they fit the setting better while allowing for more people to take on the class, and a group of people who thinks Jesters ought to remain silly, and for some reason they're arguing, because there's a (I assume mostly imagined) third group of people who hate silliness in all forms, want Achaea to be gritty as all heck, and want jesters and light-hearted fun in general removed.

Fortunately, this last group seems like a minority in this discussion, if not an imagined party altogether. I would hope that any revisions to the Jester class would keep a silly charm, because, well, there are players who like silly things and jokes and whatnot. I think the bigger goal is to let all sorts of people like that, from scathing satirists to comical clowns play the class without feeling out of sync with their own class abilities.

The only concern I had, and this was only briefly, was that the suggested changes would seem too sinister and not enough lighthearted. Then I realised, though, that basically all classes could be looked at in this light. I mean, knights cut people to shreds with rapiers, sylvans do it with vines, and basically all of the instakills are gruesome anyway. So, a little sinisterness in combat abilities seems par on course. Plus, based on what little I've seen of jesters in combat, they seem pretty sinister already anyway.

Personally, if I had any suggestions, I'd say, rather than focus on one archetype of entertainer, try to nail as many as you can while still keeping it interesting. Illusionists, court jesters, acrobats, I'm sure there's more and really hope someone awesome (like Beya) helps me out here.

Tanris

Man, I've said all I want to on the subject of jesters here, but one thing made me lol.

I'm pretty sure I remember the primary argument for axe stun on the old forums being "its here to stay, so deal with it".
I'm pretty sure I also remember the same argument going for balanceless soulmaster.
Calm yourselves guys, the conclusion is inevitable.

Asmodron

I admit using a giant JITB to bite someone's head off has an appealing dark-humor aspect to it. ^.^

"Have you met my new toy?"

"N-No...."

"Oh im sure you will get along swell, he does like to make a shocking entrance though"

-SNAP- -head topples off-

"I think he likes you! hahahahahhaah"

Aktillum

Nim said:

Fortunately, this last group seems like Delphinus and Amunet

Nim wins the thread for me, and if people really want Jester changed, then it's inevitably going to happen. Change up the flavourtext so it makes people feel better, but please retain the silly, light-hearted feel of the class, because that's who it was made to attract.

Sigge

Aktillum said:

Nim said:

Fortunately, this last group seems like Delphinus and Amunet

Nim wins the thread for me, and if people really want Jester changed, then it's inevitably going to happen. Change up the flavourtext so it makes people feel better, but please retain the silly, light-hearted feel of the class, because that's who it was made to attract.

^This.

People keep complaining about wanting it to be more neutral so they can be less silly etc. Jesters, in Achaea, are supposed to be funny/silly, everyone else is supposed to be "serious". I agree that somethings need to be re-written flavour wise, I wish blackjacks were more like Batons or the kind I mentioned (I'll find some pics), I see nothing wrong with Jesters having RUBBER Balloons (This is Achaea, and in my years of playing things that dont make sense from an IRL view have been pointed out to me that this is a FANTASY GAME, it doesn't NEED to follow the same rules as the real world, theres no reason that, in Achaea, someone couldn't have discovered rubber and made Balloons).

I understand where a lot of you are coming from, but y'know, maybe Jesters aren't you're thing, just like Apostates and Infernals HAVE to be Evil, so people who want that play Evil play them.

I agree that the whole Greyface bit and a lot of previous Jester stuff was TOO silly. I see nothing wrong with a Mentor making a Joke about someone being like that, for instance someone who DOES need to lighten up being called a "Greyface", or someone who always has a stick up their ***.

As much angst as this all seems to bring up, I'm happy people are talking about it seriously, but some people seem to be going way overboard about how it's "ruining their immersion" or whatever.

I confess that when I first started playing I made an Atavian Jester in the CIJ, and LOVED how relaxed it was, having made a character recently I felt kind of overworked with everything in the House. I'm nto saying I want to do be able to do nothing and progress, I don't mind having things to do. But I'm not good at performing, or jokes and riddles, and the focus on preforming and such, making it a necessity to advance in the House is kind of overwhelming, though I'm not sure what else there is to go for.

I WOULD like to see Jesters having more of an ability to Spy and Steal, this makes sense to me, I would also like to see more ability to do Magic tricks, the sleight of hand kind, like Serpents Secret skill where you give people things without them noticing (I would like in reverse also though, so I can get things out of my pack or whatever container I have without people seeing, awkward to emote/tmote/hocuspocus something appearing in your hand out of thin-air and then have everyone see you getting it out of something).

I'm pretty sure I've said some stupid things, and missed points and such, but I honestly think some people here are being way to serious about Jesters and how they are.

Also, I'm with everyone about Hocus Pocus I HATE having to say it when doing it!




(Yes, I know, it looks obscene)

Delphinus

@Aktillum: Actually, I'm fine with funny jesters. The problem is that the current flavour text caters to a very specific kind of humour. Jester abilities can be conducive to jokes in general, but they shouldn't be the punchline; any joke gets old when you tell it over and over.

Sigge said:

I see nothing wrong with Jesters having RUBBER Balloons (This is Achaea, and in my years of playing things that dont make sense from an IRL view have been pointed out to me that this is a FANTASY GAME, it doesn't NEED to follow the same rules as the real world, theres no reason that, in Achaea, someone couldn't have discovered rubber and made Balloons).

You are largely missing the point of that argument, I think. If something is really, really evocative of modern inventions, it doesn't fit.

At the same time, it isn't fantasy vs. IRL -- that's a non-argument for most fiction. The goal is cohesion of the setting. This is also the reason why we don't use arguments like, "Well, technically gunpowder was discovered as early as X A.D. and it's totally possible given the supposed timeline and blah blah." Really, we just don't have guns because they mesh poorly with the feudal, swords-and-sorcery, genre-grubbing, vaguely pre-industrial world that is Achaea.

It's also a very tough point to argue, being mostly intuitive, which is why these topics are so heated and controversial.

Xith

I conceded long ago that jester needs flavour improvements when Beya put them on the table. To keep them neutral. I just want that to stay seperate from project Delete Annoying People.
Jester class has needed attention for a little while (in a coding sort of way) so I'm eager to see that.

Also yeah, blackjacks are fine. It's satisfying to beat someone in the face with a marital aid once in a while.

Katzchen

Agree with Delphinus. Jesters need to be funny, but funny doesn't have to mean 'hoot like a monkey' silly, does it?

Asmodron

Jesters with gunpowder and pistols yo. BANG.


But in all seriousness, I think -most- everyone here agrees that Jesters do in fact need some tweaking. I think changing some lines like Hocus Pocus, and balloon giraffes is alright.

Some other additions I would love to see:

-Dagger Throwing, even into adjacent rooms. (a common carnival trick)
-Disappearing in a puff of smoke to suddenly reappear in an adjacent room, requires dust (a gimmicky trait but I adore it)
-Ability to conceal self, in order to SURPRISE a target that walks into the room, stunning them. (Who doesnt like a good surprise party?)
-Replacing or recoding Suicidemice and making a much more desired and accessible Transcendent ability for Pranks.
-Remaking Puppetry..honestly whenever I see it I will always always just see a copied skill that got slapped with some funny lines.

Aktillum

I'd like to see a Tarot card for Jesters that works similarly to Loki. This would increase Devilmarks usefulness and be a "sleight of hand" type card trick.

"Aktillum flings an unrecognizable card at you, and you suddenly feel ill."

Dagger throwing is already available via Juggling, which is basically 3x edged weapon throw.

Disappearing in a puff of smoke can be pre-pended to backflip text.

Eld

Aktillum said:

I'd like to see a Tarot card for Jesters that works similarly to Loki. This would increase Devilmarks usefulness and be a "sleight of hand" type card trick.

"Aktillum flings an unrecognizable card at you, and you suddenly feel ill."

Like Moon? Only mental affs, rather than all the loki ones, but similar. Comparative usefulness depends on what you want to do with it, I guess.

Aktillum

Jesters should probably never use Moon because of the affs it gives. This would be far more unpredictable (like Jesters should be) and cause folks to diagnose, and who knows, it might stick something actually useful with a devilmark'd aeon.

Darklyre

I've always felt that Puppetry should be more in line with controlling a puppet entity (sorta like Alchemists and homunculi) rather than a copy/pasted version of Vodun.

Xith

- Puppetry is fine, but some skills need improvement (tickle, choke, fashion, etc.) - wouldn't argue with puppet strings flavor text though
- Daggers can be thrown adjacent. Just hard to track if they hit
- Disappearing in a puff of smoke is called dustbomb
- Surprise/backstab for jesters = no
- Mice fix is still in the works
- Bananas are fine, but the hooting and stuff needs to go.

- Moon won't always help 1 v 1, but decent in groups depending on who your friends are
- TAROT --> http://forums.achaea.com/discussion/470/classleads/p1 - No Loki tarot. Might as well get a ring of pestilence or use moon.

Blujixapug

Delphinus said:

Jester abilities can be conducive to jokes in general, but they shouldn't be the punchline; any joke gets old when you tell it over and over.

I agree with @Delphinus. Badjoke needs several new bad jokes added to its rotation to compensate for them having been told over and over. I suggest everyone writes down the joke from their Christmas cracker and e-mails it to @Tecton.

Xith

Blujixapug said:

I agree with @Delphinus. Badjoke needs several new bad jokes added to its rotation to compensate for them having been told over and over. I suggest everyone writes down the joke from their Christmas cracker and e-mails it to @Tecton.

Seasonal joke rotations. +1

Tvistor

I was going to preserve my post count but:

Where does the general keep his armies?

Up his sleevies.

Ephram

Tvistor said:

I was going to preserve my post count but:

Where does the general keep his armies?

Up his sleevies.

@Tvistor is back to posting!

Beya

The jester flavour should show a character who is flexible and nimble, like an acrobat (backflip, tumble, acrobatics). It should show inventiveness and craftiness (bombs/mice).

The skills should focus around dexterity and skill as opposed to strength, as it is an affliction class and not a strength one.

Further attention should be directed at HELP CLASS JESTER and the line for becoming a jester.

I would add, however, that a Jester's place should still be underlined as entertainment. A Jester's place will always be entertainment, as it always has been in real life. Sometimes those skills will be transferred to the battlefield, as it was in 1066 when a juggler recited poetry as he went out on his own to the enemy lines juggling swords and killed the first man (after which he was slain with no respawn).

Implement such skills for entertaining - sleight of hand, juggling, performance and illusion - as part of the skill flavour and we'll be away laughing.

Also, 'hocuspocus' should be replaced with 'x waves his hand majestically'. The quote marks really mess up a performance.

Xith

Ephram said:

Tvistor said:

I was going to preserve my post count but:

Where does the general keep his armies?

Up his sleevies.

@Tvistor is back to posting!

Next stop: over 9000.

Zeon

Aktillum said:

Jesters should probably never use Moon because of the affs it gives. This would be far more unpredictable (like Jesters should be) and cause folks to diagnose, and who knows, it might stick something actually useful with a devilmark'd aeon.

devilmark is an occultism ability. also adding more randomness to combat is a bad idea, we're trying to move away from that, it's not fun (look at a lot of the classleads in the last ~2 years, especially the ones to random-esc classes like occie). no one wants to fling aeon 200 times (100 times to strip speed and 100 times waiting on the devil to proc loki and waiting for the loki to proc asthma/stupidity).

Asmodron

Now this here is a real badass Jester! Kill them laughing!

Aktillum

IRL Jester:

Amunet's ideal Jester in no way influenced by her morose outlook on life:

Xith:

Iron Realms concept art of a Jester:

Tvistor

Daeir said:

I thought the entire premise of Occultism was the unpredictable nature of a lot of their abilities, see chaosrays.

RNG makes combat silly the more a class relies on it. To some extent it means people need to adapt to the situation at hand, but it also leads to situations where you execute an attack perfectly repeatedly and just watch it fail. See: trying to venomlock a serpent.

Iocun

Zeon said:

Aktillum said:

Jesters should probably never use Moon because of the affs it gives. This would be far more unpredictable (like Jesters should be) and cause folks to diagnose, and who knows, it might stick something actually useful with a devilmark'd aeon.

devilmark is an occultism ability. also adding more randomness to combat is a bad idea, we're trying to move away from that, it's not fun (look at a lot of the classleads in the last ~2 years, especially the ones to random-esc classes like occie). no one wants to fling aeon 200 times (100 times to strip speed and 100 times waiting on the devil to proc loki and waiting for the loki to proc asthma/stupidity).

It wouldn't be worth it to diagnose off a Jester-induced loki anyways. Most afflictions are harmless when facing a jester, and the few that are of potential danger are easily checked against. Asthma shouldn't get stuck from loki anyways if you have a somewhat decent system that does some default checks.

Kaie

I have a lot to say about Jester honestly. I've -always- been one and there are so many ups and downs. I try not to focus entirely on the negative aspects of it as a pk class but, there are many. It takes too long to build up to a reasonably reliable prep, no pvp damage reduction, it just relies on scale stats, it's skills are outdated. The balance costs need looked at for some things and maybe consider adding a few afflictions to it's arsenal. As Iocun mentioned most of those affs aren't important when fighting a jester. Honestly, I was reading a journal in Cyrene about classes dated from like 4 years ago or so and aside from having Shake and Obliterate removed, Jester hasn't seen major update for the better. A few minor tweaks and a lot of nerfs occured. The world around it evolved and it hasn't yet. I'm reaally looking forwards to the promised overhaul of the class and seeing what they have in store. I know Suicide Mice was noted as one thing we'll see a change regarding. I believe it's intended to be made public. That alone may work out some kinks in Jester pk because it at the time doesn't have access to it's transcendent skill. Some things definitely need fixed. Peels are on my list of things I'd like to see reworked. I almost always watch my opponent walk away from peels and then fall to them as i chase. Or if that's not the case nothing ever happens with them during the conflict. Increase the chances of peels hitting and maybe remove the chance of it hitting the caster. Itch powder is wickedly random too. Sometimes it works awesome other times I can sit there and wait for my beard to grow out waiting to see it do something. It has a lot of potential if the kinks were worked out.