Jester Class

Beya

The CIJ (and future incarnations of it) would benefit from the rest of the world having the murine training rooms. It would reduce the amount of people who just want to join the house, ignore the important life lessons and performances just to skip to the cool blow-things-up part. The skill needs cleaning up in flavour and mechanics. Right now it's still very over powered, but I shan't go into that. The flavour needs to be more concise. Think more of the end of Wanted than Tom and Jerry. They were depicted great in that film.

Sorry the scene is so short and out of context.

Katzchen

I like the jack in the box... it's creepy as all hell, but in a good way.

Rean

I hope this doesn't come off as elitist, but I dislike the 'yay pancakes, lol! you have a nose! rofl!' Jesters, just because I don't feel it contributes anything to the game atmosphere. Which is fine in itself, but other classes do contribute to the game atmosphere.  Things just do not have to be inanely childish and silly to be funny. Light-hearted characters are fine, and can be refreshing at times, but it becomes grating when it is all I see in most Jesters. I hope you guys don't interpret this as attacking the silly people, in all honesty I'd just like to see more Jester fighters. 

I consider Jesters to be unpredictable and incredibly dangerous fighters that can kill someone in so many different ways they have no idea what to expect. That is how I tried to play Rean during his time as a Jester, and I hope that is how most people viewed him. Unfortunately, there are so few serious Jester fighters that this is more of a dream - most Jesters just aren't dangerous on any level. 

(also wow, you guys touched on like everything possible. Well done!)

Tvistor

I actually should have included Rean. He dueled me when I was still randomly envenoming with terrible illusions, JITB'd and was very polite about it all.

I never got the 'jester' vibe from him though. It was more like 'this is a dangerous combatant who happens to be using the jester skillset at the moment'.

Orklanishkal

The thing is, there are going to be "silly" characters who play in all classes. I can think of a few rogue occultists who like nothing better than to rofl all over central market in Ashtan and talk about cookies over CT. No reason for the immersion of the various classes to be sacrificed for that small segment of AchaeaChat users.

Delphinus

Someone mentioned bop. I'd actually like to see Jesters using daggers and knives instead of blackjacks, because 1) it's rather courtier-ish to have small, concealed blades, 2) knife throwers are a carnival staple, and 3) it's not a pun.

Probably not the time or place to be getting into specifics, but this just occurred to me.

Knucker

Awww, you too Beya. Now go back to sleep.

As the New Guy (or one of, at least!) to this whole debate, I can't speak to the jester class (as I haven't played it) but I can speak to the state of the CIJ; Beya touched on most of the points I'd want to make, but I want to emphasize the fact that "jestering" as a profession (and not just a class) is something quite a few of us new folk would like to take more seriously, and I'm hoping we see a shift in things as time goes on. I know that I joined the CIJ as a Serpent, not only because I've always loved the class (I played Achaea, oh, back five or six years ago, briefly), but also because I wanted to take half a step back from "oh ho ho, silliness" jestering and really look at things from a performer's viewpoint, since it's one that I have quite a chunk of experience with. I've pushed Knucker as a stagehand and a dramaturge, partially because I suck at actually GOOD improv comedy, but because I really view my goal as a "jester" to be holding up a big old mirror of satire to various occurrences in Sapience. I really love the idea of the CIJ getting more involved with the Beirdd in a "friendly rivalry" sort of way, as it gives all the performers a chance to get to know each other and play off each other, which is hugely important in putting on good performances. Furthermore, it does bring forward a sort of back-and-forth between Serious Theatre and Satirical Comedy, and while there are elements of both in each group I do think keeping something of an air of satire and "poking fun" is important for the CIJ.

However, more importantly I like pushing goals and aims of the CIJ as a performing troupe because it can feel odd to be part of the house and not be a jester, and I'd really love to see more performers in the house who AREN'T jesters (bards in particular!). Just as has been said already here, it's the difference between standing on street corners juggling and telling mediocre jokes, and starring in the big-top or onstage with your fellow performers. Being able to come together as a troupe, and hold up a big ol' satirical mirror to Sapience, is really how I see the CIJ in a perfect world.

But hey, what does the novice know, eh? Ah heh heh heh.

To be honest, as a relative youngster on the face of Sapience and not particularly any good at fighting, I see my best defense being writing hilarious satire full of biting wit to destroy my enemies. Not only is it fun, but it lasts a heck of a lot longer too!

Rean

I don't think Rean ever in his life used bop. He will not kill something by poking it in the nose - that's something to save for humiliation kills. Also, dagger throwing is just stylish. It's easily the biggest thing I miss about Jester (death tarot comes to a close second, followed by bombs.)

Katzchen

Dagger jester... I like it... would go well with the juggling.

Blujixapug

Tvistor said:

No, no, no. The dumb part is mouse-brainwashing centers exist. As captivated as I was initially by the concept of mice consigning themselves to humorous oblivion at the behest of their jester overlords, the novelty wore off to be replaced with incredulity and a deep-seated conviction that Tom and Jerry were omni-trans jesters.

Are you serious? It's a fantastic ability. It's an original idea. It's genuinely funny. It's a wonderful, evocative visual: a scurrying mouse with a fizzing stick of dynamite strapped to its back. It's one of the few abilities in their kit that nails the aesthetic, that careful balance between cartoonish and practical, a mildly silly idea legitimised through excellent execution. I find it completely plausible that a 15th century court jester/spymaster could train pigeons to carry notes. If pigeons, why not mice? If notes, why not bombs? I hate a lot of things about jesters, but I feel the opposite about suicide mice.

Tvistor

To put it simply, it is silly. My objection is nothing more than that the very idea of brainwashing mice is too comic villain for Achaea. That is arguable but I am going to just repeat "No, I'm right" with my hands over my ears, so there.

Blujixapug

Tvistor said:

To put it simply, it is silly. My objection is nothing more than that the very idea of brainwashing mice is too comic villain for Achaea. That is arguable but I am going to just repeat "No, I'm right" with my hands over my ears, so there.

Rean

Katzchen said:

Dagger jester... I like it... would go well with the juggling.

Yes, it was always epic to throw three x/155+/230+ daggers in a flurry and follow it with a fourth skill. I wish I saw Jesters doing that more.

Sohl

Xith said:

I don't perceive the Pranks skillset as a far cry from this archetype.

Achaean jesters and the Joker are on opposite ends of the spectrum from each other. The latter makes pencils disappear inside the eye sockets of his enemies, while the former hoots like a monkey and tosses banana peels. 

If you ever compare the two again, Ledger will rise from the grave, and he and Nicholson will really put a smile on your face.

Trey

Handspring          Leap at your foes in neighboring rooms.

Props               Wish for the props that every good jester needs.

Balloons            Float to the skies with balloons. ***

Slipperiness        Let your bad self shine on through.

Bop                 Bop your enemies with a blackjack. ***

Giraffes            Twist a balloon into a giraffe. Wheee! ***

Backflip            Flip over obstructions like a monkey on kola.

Hocuspocus          Cast coloured illusions to dazzle those about you. ***

Runaway             And thou didst beat a brave and hasty retreat. ***

Concussionbomb      Momentarily stun everyone in the room.

Butterflybomb       Blast people from the skies and trees.

Balloonhandoff      Launch your foes to the clouds with a big red balloon! ***

Backhandspring      Leap out of the room striking someone on the way out.

Balancing           You're like a cat, you are.

Smokebomb           Choke all in the room with a plume of smoke.

Juggling            Damn, you're good.

Webbomb             Explode strands of rope to bind everyone in the room.

Acrobatics          Leap and bounce to make yourself a difficult target to hit.

Badjoke             It's everyone ELSE that has the bad sense of humour! ***

Mickey              Slip some poor sucker a mickey.

Traps               The ability to search for traps in your location.

Disarm              Attempt to disarm a trap.

Graffiti            Doesn't everyone deserve to share your wisdom?

Somersault          Quickly somersault past obstructions, even when bound.

Arrowcatch          Pluck arrows from the air with the greatest of ease.

Bananas             Litter the floor with slippery banana peels. ***

Firecracker         Construct festive firecrackers.

Itchpowder          Uurch...ergh! *scratch scratch* Arrgh! *scratch scratch*

Dustbomb            Numb the sense of your victims with a bomb.

Jack-in-the-Box     An innocent musical toy with a vicious bite! ***

Timers              Give your bombs a delayed effect.

Suicidemice         Brainwash mice to carry bombs on their backs. Groovy. ***

*** 'd need to either go or get a rework.

Balloons - Get rid of this, give them Highleap or an equivalent/improvement instead. It makes sense, they're ridiculously acrobatic.

Bop - Change to Slice, use daggers. Forged daggers are cheap and prevalent enough that there'd be no supply issue, and the various daggers available through denizens would be useful for more than show now, perhaps. Artefact Blackjack stats will work fine for this. "You lash swiftly out with a brazen hair dagger, slicing deeply into a baby rat.". Maybe cause bleeding? I don't know.

Giraffes - Just no.

Hocuspocus - Replace the words with some generic muttering message. "You mutter swiftly under your breath, bending an illusion to your will."

Runaway - Reskin, don't make them have to ride anything, particularly that retarded giraffe.

Balloonhandoff - Don't require the balloon. Call it Launch. "Grabbing Delphinus by the shoulders, you tumble backwards, pulling him with you. Gathering your legs up to your chest, you kick out as you roll, launching him skyward."

Badjoke - Call it Taunt, give it a generic jeering/catcalling message.

Bananas - Call it bearings, have them cost 1 steel to CONSTRUCT BEARINGS. "With deft fingers, you quickly construct a handful of steel marbles." Self explanatory on how they work.

Jackinthebox - Replace with Redsmile, reflavour it, otherwise identical mechanically to JITB in terms of how it works/end result. 

Suicidemice - I have no idea what to do with these. I have literally never seen them used. Replace with Clockworkbomb, maybe? 1 iron per one since it's more complex. Have it roll on gears/waddle on little clockwork feet like a windup toy and blow up. Mechanic similar to Thurisaz.

Katzchen

Love those ideas. That would be an awesome class. Not sure what you mean by 'red smile' though, and like I said, I love jack-in-the-box.

Sohl

+1 Trey, except suicide mice. I'm with Bluji on this one, they've got great flavor as is.

Corbeaux

+1 to daggers, bearings, taunt, and the hocus pocus rework. Excellent ideas there. It'd be great if they were reworked like that.

Trey

Katzchen said:

Love those ideas. That would be an awesome class. Not sure what you mean by 'red smile' though, and like I said, I love jack-in-the-box.

If we're giving Jesters daggers, I figured a timed insta where they slip behind you, wrap their arms around your head and slit your throat from ear to ear would be fun. It's admittedly more sadistic than neutral, but it fit the jester theme.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=SNNeQt6kbsM#t=157s

at 157s

Katzchen

Trey said:

Katzchen said:

Love those ideas. That would be an awesome class. Not sure what you mean by 'red smile' though, and like I said, I love jack-in-the-box.

If we're giving Jesters daggers, I figured a timed insta where they slip behind you, wrap their arms around your head and slit your throat from ear to ear would be fun. It's admittedly more sadistic than neutral, but it fit the jester theme.

Ah, makes sense. I'd say it's more 'rogue-ish' than sadistic though. No worse than most other classes anyway.

Beya

I'd like more context given to WISH FOR <item>. It's been my opinion that anyone with low credibility should be outright denied by the Divine when they ask them for props.

@Trey: Launch. "Grabbing Delphinus by the shoulders, you tumble backwards, pulling him with you. Gathering your legs up to your chest, you kick out as you roll, launching him skyward."

+50 to this message. I can really visualise it with this description.

Needs one for themselves;

You tumble and roll, gathering momentum. Landing in a crouch, you feel the power in your legs and kick off against the ground, sending you high into the air.

The Redsmile name takes away any preconceptions of what jack-in-the-boxes are. Fantastic and what the skill needs.

Thoroughly approve of the daggers. While I'm all for supporting blacksmiths, I'd be concerned about a jester's only bashing skill relying upon attaining a dagger and keeping it. Knights and bards can hold onto their weapons. Perhaps wishing for a single dagger at a time. Further, reserve daggers from blacksmiths could be sheathed in different clothing types for drawslash-like attacks. A kalmia dagger in the hat, a slike dagger in the boots...

Drawing your dagger from a pair of leather boots, you sweep it across Trey's neck in an arc of movement.

With a flick of your hand you pull an obsidian dagger from a red belt and plunge it into Trey's stomach.

Indeed, the slice ability could derive from the amount learned in pranks and the player's dexterity as opposed to the dagger's stats (as per the current blackjack).

As to runaway, I'm all for it being another flavour for dash, but balloon giraffes also gave a swing up ability which should be included too. Other benefits include not drowning when you're in water, but I think that can be overlooked (or, by virtue of your acrobatic prowess, your ability to swim is heightened). 

Honestly, though, the swimming thing can be overlooked.

Beya

Should clarify my dagger comment:

500 gold to WISH FOR DAGGER.

500 gold for five daggers from a forger.

Convenience vs sensible investment.

Orklanishkal

I always thought "wishing for" stuff and getting it was stupid anyway, tbh. 

Beya

It would be better to make itchpowder from dust, ballbearings from iron, mickeys from ginseng or an Alchemical alternative.

Jesters should still be able to produce their own weapon for a bashing attack, even if it's more costly than visiting a smith.

Trey

Vote Beya and I for reskinning/polishing Pranks. Yea or Nay?

Asmodron

What about replacing Puppetry? I always found it rather annoying that it was just Vodun with a make-over, and that it really didnt even make sense for a jester to be sewing up a doll to try and spiritually control their opponent.

Replace Puppetry with a more useful un-copied skill, yea or nay?

Beya

Asmodron said:

What about replacing Puppetry?

Jesus, Asmodron. One step at a time.

Asmodron

Beya said:

Asmodron said:

What about replacing Puppetry?

Jesus, Asmodron. One step at a time.

Strike while the Iron is hot!!! >:D

Beya

-Wall of text removed-

Puppetry is very useful, and the flavour text is well drawn.

Katzchen

I like puppetry. And it does make sense for jesters to use puppets. Perhaps if you think of it as more of a metaphorical 'pulling' of the person's strings, it seems more appropriate?