Jester Class

Sohl

Someone earlier in the thread mentioned a ventriloquism re-skin - that sounds awesome.

Aktillum

These are all terrible ideas, and you're all way too focused on the "medieval" part of "high-fantasy medieval".

"Grabbing Delphinus by the shoulders, you tumble backwards, pulling him with you. Gathering your legs up to your chest, you kick out as you roll, launching him skyward."

So Jesters are Ken Masters now?

You're all trying to turn a class that's based on mischief magic into something it's not, and shouldn't be because a small, vocal sect of players (whom mostly roleplay Knights and librarians) are seemingly annoyed by this made up rainbow-wigs stereotype that you've created for Jesters, a stereotype that I really haven't seen any Jesters actually roleplay (and get very far with).

As for flavourtext, it's light-hearted prankster's magic, which is absolutely fine in the context of a high-fantasy medieval game. Perhaps it's a bit slapstick, but if you change them into something more sinister, it will enforce the "evil clown" stereotype. If you change them into some acrobatic trampeze act, they'll still have the flavour of a Ringley Bros circus act.

You guys have seen Bunraku too many times. Or not enough times.

Sohl

lol'd at the claim that it's a minority that want changes to jester, and not the other way around.

Aktillum

The forums do represent a minority, a large portion of players don't use them, and this thread has achieved a snowball effect because of the same 5 - 10 people who don't play Jesters but find them annoying.

Garao

Mhmm, I don't think the attitude here is very good and I agree with @Aktillum. This thread has snowballed so much people are suggesting changes to entire Jester skills let alone reskinning of certain abilities? I agree that a few abilities could be a little less obnoxious and in your face. I think maybe a new thread (is the dais appropriate?) with a more clearly defined purpose and constructive emphasis on reskinning abilities would be better suited than what this thread has become.

Aktillum

@Daerir

I don't understand what's anachronistic about balloons or giraffes and why they break your immersion. Nowhere does the game specifically mention the balloons as being made out of rubber. Giraffes definitely exist in Achaea. I'll give you mickeys. Wishing for props could be changed to wishing for props from Pandora.

The "why is this even here and what can I do to get rid of it" is really a negative attitude to have. I particularly like the Jester's flavourtext, and I don't necessarily see Achaea as a dark, brooding game. There are elements of drama, but it's not Aetolia, for pete's sake.

Delphinus

@Trey: Voting yes because the concepts are solid, but the writing could use some work. (I accept that it was more a proof of concept thing.)

Thaumas

Vodun:
Sleep               Send someone to the dreamworld.

Puppetry:
Sleep               Send someone to the la la land.

Asmodron

^ hehehhe

Trey

Delphinus said:

@Trey: Voting yes because the concepts are solid, but the writing could use some work. (I accept that it was more a proof of concept thing.)

Oh, absolutely. I shot that post off in about five minutes with ideas I've mulled over in the past. I'd actually much rather come up with concepts and have someone else polish the writing. My big strength for describing is static objects, like weaponry, and only rarely do I hit the nail on the head with dynamic descriptions, save for the drinks in the Merchants Bar and Lounge (I did everything but the whiskey. I like the ales better but clear consensus says the rum is the most popular. And that bottle is DEEP).

Katzchen

Trey said:

Delphinus said:

@Trey: Voting yes because the concepts are solid, but the writing could use some work. (I accept that it was more a proof of concept thing.)

Oh, absolutely. I shot that post off in about five minutes with ideas I've mulled over in the past. I'd actually much rather come up with concepts and have someone else polish the writing. My big strength for describing is static objects, like weaponry, and only rarely do I hit the nail on the head with dynamic descriptions, save for the drinks in the Merchants Bar and Lounge (I did everything but the whiskey. I like the ales better but clear consensus says the rum is the most popular. And that bottle is DEEP).

You designed that rum? That rum was awesome. I think it was one of the things Katz missed most about moving to Mhaldor... no drinking, so no more merchant rum.

Xith

@Forumelitists It actually is a minority that wants jester changed, and most of them aren't the jesters. The people who already play the class are the ones who have the most vote power, and we largely say no, because if you don't get the class, get out of the classroom... or something.

@Trey Decent stuff. The cuckoobomb is almost word for word my damage bomb classlead, right down to being clockwork. And the hocuspocus problem is a given.

As for changes to balloons, no. They don't function like high-leap anyway.
As for fixing giraffes/runaway, I could compromise there but don't know how to compensate the mountedness and tree climing without just giving Swing to jesters.
Badjoke is already a form of taunt. And has performance value on the side, so I think it's fine.
Bop changing to daggers and the balloonhandoff launch that is stopped by mass anyway? Kind of want to avoid making Jester a monk-serpent mashup.
Jitb is 100% fine. Shut yer face.
Mice still need their fix and to be public. Also fine and clever. Performers work with animals plenty.

Bananapeels are pretty much fine also. The unique thing about jester is that its combat is meant to humiliate the opponent while killing them. Dying to a goofy clown has that bonus groan.
But I won't say no to the slippery marbles idea (doesn't really fix your flavor problem, but perhaps as an alternate).
I would like to see jester take a more trap-based pranks direction. A la Wacky Races. Actually submitted some things a couple of rounds ago. My glue suggestion was based on an idea that Rean forgot to submit but had published.

Iocun

We probably should stop trying to claim what the majority wants either way, since none of us actually has access to that kind of data.

Sylvance

Iocun said:

We probably should stop trying to claim what the majority wants either way, since none of us actually has access to that kind of data.

I think that the 'it sucks' vs 'it doesn't suck' argument can also be let alone at this point.  The single most important problem is that it breaks immersion.  If that's the case then, no matter how un/sucky it is, it has to be changed.

Sylvance

Xith said:

Badjoke is already a form of taunt. And has performance value on the side, so I think it's fine.

@Xith- It is...?

It does...?

Eld

@Daeir hit on the main thing that bothers me about so much of the Pranks stuff: "...associated with modern clowning culture...". We can argue about how long balloons have been around, whether the ones jesters use are necessarily rubber, and so on, but the way in which they're used is always going to evoke modern clowns rather than medieval jesters. Similarly, I'm sure banana peels on a smooth surface were just as slippery in the middle ages as they are now, but they're such a standard physical comedy gag in modern slapstick that they're never going to make me think of anything but Looney Tunes and the Three Stooges. It's those associations that really make the abilities bothersome for me.

Xith

Yeah, let's argue about the historical accuracy of the Frankenstein'd world of Achaea...

And then we can move on to Bards, which are just so Disney it can't be healthy. Have to delete sing-fighting cause it just breaks my immersion in a world where impossible sh** is possible.

It's like you people don't hear yourselves.

Aktillum

@Xith Let's not get our feathers ruffled and give them ammo. The Greyface Cannons are mounted and pointed our direction, we'll need an umbrella of lulz to defend ourselves.

edit: Bards came from Glee.

Xith

Aktillum said:

@Xith Let's not get our feathers ruffled and give them ammo. The Greyface Cannons are mounted and pointed our direction, we'll need an umbrella of lulz to defend ourselves.

edit: Bards came from Glee.

They should have Aerosmith week in Ty Beirdd.

Aktillum

Xith said:

Aktillum said:

@Xith Let's not get our feathers ruffled and give them ammo. The Greyface Cannons are mounted and pointed our direction, we'll need an umbrella of lulz to defend ourselves.

edit: Bards came from Glee.

They should have Aerosmith week in Ty Beirdd.

I wouldn't want to miss a thing.

Sylvance

You two are quite the comedy duo. Figures...

Asmodron

Love me some Glee ^.^.

Zeon

Wtf at bard being Disney. Bard is such a hard core fantasy class it might as well be a standard. Jester is, if anything, just a rogue/bard prestige class/way of roleplaying your character.

And none of that matters because Achaean jesters are none of the above. If anything their Ronald Mcdonald thrown into a Gauntlet game and packaged into an Achaean class.

Synbios

Xith said:

Yeah, let's argue about the historical accuracy of the Frankenstein'd world of Achaea...

And then we can move on to Bards, which are just so Disney it can't be healthy. Have to delete sing-fighting cause it just breaks my immersion in a world where impossible sh** is possible.

It's like you people don't hear yourselves.

The concept of a Bard as a fantasy adventuring class is not new, for all you non-tabletop players. 

And for you vidya game players...

And for you tropers as well.

And to stress the point in image format:

Nakari

Synbios said:

Xith said:

Yeah, let's argue about the historical accuracy of the Frankenstein'd world of Achaea...

And then we can move on to Bards, which are just so Disney it can't be healthy. Have to delete sing-fighting cause it just breaks my immersion in a world where impossible sh** is possible.

It's like you people don't hear yourselves.

The concept of a Bard as a fantasy adventuring class is not new, for all you non-tabletop players. 

heck, that's 3rd ed. Bards are all the way back from first

Xith

As someone just said, jester isn't new to the sword & sorcery theme either. Gauntlet had jesters.

Jesters don't ruin anybody's RP or "immersion" unless they say things that are directly OOC, and given that there are Houses that use japanese titles and latin titles floating all over the place, I think you just have to grin and bear it. Pun intended.

Nakari

Xith said:

As someone just said, jester isn't new to the sword & sorcery theme either. Gauntlet had jesters.

Jesters don't ruin anybody's RP or "immersion" unless they say things that are directly OOC, and given that there are Houses that use japanese titles and latin titles floating all over the place, I think you just have to grin and bear it. Pun intended.

I don't think you can really make such broad statements about what damages people's immersion. If people say it does, it probably does, and if a lot of people do, it's likely a more systemic issue.

Xith

Strange. It doesn't hurt mine any more than the fact that Shamans aren't healers. I wonder if this "Achaea" thing sometimes breaks convention.

Nakari

Xith said:

Strange. It doesn't hurt mine any more than the fact that Shamans aren't healers. I wonder if this "Achaea" thing sometimes breaks convention.

see, breaking convention =/ breaking immersion. Or, rather, if your immersion is broken because shamans in achaea aren't the same as shamans in WoW, then we might have found the real problem

Zeon

Gauntlet is not really the kind of fantasy game I think Achaea was meant to be. By comparing our jesters to them I was trying how show how they don't really fit.

I'd like to think most of the people that play this game would prefer a little more "roll 20 to spot" and a little less "red wizard needs food badly."