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Comments
It's not the job of the playerbase to come up with a replacement/counterbalance for everything. Mayology is clearly what'd be called meta-warping in other games (ie: everything becomes about how to counter the mayology to the exclusion of everything else). That it needs to be nerfed is obvious, and no one's obligated to come up with alternatives for free out of not being 'childish.' This is literally not how any other online game works.
Even then, plenty of suggestions have been suggested, including the one you just now mentioned again.
Rom and I talked about how broken Mayology was, and I told him outright that I'd probably classlead it if no one else did. The general idea behind balance discussions is not 'what benefits me most', surprisingly.
Its unique, and sure it needs some tweaks. Maybe it needs a CD to stop repeat use, I don't know, I'm just spitballing.
I'm calling out how you guys never had anything to say about it, even though you knew it was broken a year ago? So no one thought to classlead something, or post to forums about it, or message the admin, or anything? Now all of a sudden it's broken and massively needs an adjustment. Why? Oh, because it's kicking your ass. Funny, maybe if you had pointed it out when you recognized the problem instead of waiting for it to actually become a problem, maybe it would have gone differently.
Its been a trend I've seen, and maybe we just look at things differently. If I see an issue, I talk about it to try to understand the current stance, and poke holes in that. You guys figure something out, you keep it low until it's hurting you then it becomes a problem. I can't tell you the number of times I've been a part of figuring some really wild stuff out, only to get it fixed because it wasn't intended or was too good. Either you want change because it's good for the game, or you want change because it's good for your side. I personally really dislike the latter.
Also, no gaming community that has any self respect is going to change stuff because someone is whining. If you're providing solutions alongside your problem, your complaint is going to be taken much more seriously. You are obligated to provide solutions if you actually care about fixing it.
"This X thing sucks, it kills my team too gud. Nerf pls"
"X does Y, it's too much because of Z, so I propose W."
Which sounds better? Obviously an exaggeration, but you get the point.
Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
I thought Mayo got nerfed after proficy dueling with ages ago, I had no reason to think it was even an issue until that. Maybe your issue is more that you assume everyone but you is acting out of malice. Plenty of people will go out of their way to make sure their own abilities stay strong, of course, but that's been most recently demonstrated by people trying to defend mayo/rezzes, so that runs counter to your claim that it's those 'other' people doing it.
And no, other gaming communities don't demand community solutions to problems--merely that the problem is recognized and exposed, ideally in a cogent way. Solutions are the developer's job, even if the playerbase is of course benefited by being helpful.
Again, though, plenty of solutions have been spoken about, including making mayo force true death, nerfing of non-class abilities, cooldowns, etc. The same was true for people having 6+ lives, but a solution none of us even suggested got implemented instead, which makes it obvious that things getting fixed is not exactly dependent on us giving good solutions
Proficy never used it to anywhere near it's full abilities. Neither did Rom. It's fair to call for a critique, but like Daeir said, it is one of the more unique skills in the game. I'm all for balancing it to be more combatable (I'm not entirely sold it's broken, why is it difficult to target the alchemist if they mayo'd? It's no different than a Mage that uses vibes, they're not a primary target but add that and they become one) without neutering it completely. I think a CD on use would suffice if anything was needed at all.
Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
You seem to have misread my post, then. I said it was a hilarious exaggeration to state that I have 6-8 lives per engagement. You are listing single isolated engagements where it happened and ignoring all of the others where it does not due to cooldowns. You're not disproving anything...
My gems have 24 hour CD. You need to wait an entire RL day for it to happen again.
And why would anyone trade soul rezz for soulcage? Devotion doesn't have soul rezz...
It's different than mages pretty self-evidently and I have trouble believing you're arguing in good faith if you question that. There is no other option but to target the alchemist or have someone with absurd hinder the likes of which hardly exists since hangedman nerf on them the whole fight. When you can just burst, remayo, burst, remayo, repeat up to 5 times with rezzes (though maybe slightly more manageable with rezz nerf now) that's a long time to be focusing on someone with lightning quick leap to spam out of hinder, shield tattoo, etc. It also makes the 'cost' insignificant. Add to this the fact they can just bail and snipe you at ridiculous balance and you can't even get to them half the time because YOUR leap isn't that fast to spam through hinder.
Not a single other class has the same level of urgency in targeting them than a mayod alchemist. Sure, mages sometimes become important because of vibes, but you'll never immediately wipe without killing the mage unless you're leading a group of newbies into ret trap. This is why I used the term 'meta-warping' earlier--every engagement becomes about how to deal with mayology to the exclusion of everything else. That's not healthy for class design, and the optimal strategy would in fact to just have like as many alchemists doing it every fight as you can afford to bankroll (with a couple of support classes).
I did say removing the bonus from non-class stuff could be an option. A hard 30s CD would alleviate the majority of your post-burst scenario, as well.
Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
Gem rezzes have been a thing I have dealt with from the other side for ages. It's somewhat insulting that you accuse me of bias over that. Find posts of me whining this incessantly when I was fighting against it. You won't. I just deal with it, and now I use it. It isn't biased for me to expect others to deal with it too.
To be clear, it's fine to have a different opinion. But some people seem to not think it's a problem when it's their side using it and only get extremely loud when the other side starts. That's bias, and a double standard.
It wasn't long ago that people were whining about Jhui/Dunn, BM and shin lightning (right skill?). It was so bad that it received a quick patch. Let's all stop this nonsense about "oh now it is happening to them they want it nerfed". That isn't the case. Mhaldor can use mayology, I get it. For the love of all that is evil/holy/chaos/(insert word) please stop saying we don't know/thought about how to counter Farrah. We have done it on multiple occasions. We have conversations before every engagement about if farrahclass = alchie then x end. Daeir said:
Jesus, you are dense. "Omg guys all you have to do is slow down/stop farrah and she dies". So many people have said already that Farrah is a specialist in not dying/getting locked down. Even if you do lock her down and kill her, she leaves room, rezzes and now you have to deal with the 10 Targ's in the room (oh yeah you forgot them, didn't you? Because they are all just sitting them twiddling their thumbs) and you have to have someone go and lock down Farrah again (because she is using her L3 bow, coordination and MAYOLOGY again to kill you in two balances). But please enlighten us more on how you would stop Farrah with all the classes/players we have at our disposal. How many DW, Shamans, Alchies does Mhaldor have THAT MAIN those classes? Zackery = Alchie, Kiet = Shaman or Serpent. No Proficy is not Alchie, he has not coded/updated his system for it. Proficy is Runie or Infernal and sometimes monk. Is this our choice? Yep! Can we abuse a broken skill in group combat? Yep! Do we? Not currently. This isn't about Farrah. If this was Jhui/Dunn doing it, it would have already been nerfed and the forum warriors would be doing the same thing Mhaldor (Plus Eleusis|Hashan) currently is, asking for it to be looked at and have a well thought out solution.
, with your current ability and knowledge, do you think Mayology combined with the ability to die at least 4 times and use it again in group combat is okay?
I already answered that question.
But making Mayology timer not extend with kills + true death and forced embrace would neuter the Alchemist class entirely, and Rom agreed with me on this.
Alchemist is sub-par without Mayology. It needs to be worth something for the class to even be worth playing in a group fight. It's worthless if it's 30 seconds of OP and then out of the fight entirely for three minutes.
Provided you have eye sigils of course.
Tecton-Today at 6:17 PM
Hell, admins could probably even add a balance cost to trying to failing to leave a room due to an eye sigil, so as to prevent spamming a direction.
An unartied alchemist with no promotional items = not a problem with Mayology.
An artied alchemist = a problem, but manageable
An artied alchemist with promo/shop of wonders items = a big pain in the ass
An artied alchemist with promo/shop of wonders items and multiple ways to rezz themself = holy crap this sucks
An artied alchemist with promo/shop of wonders items and multiple ways of rezzing themself and factional rezz and shaman rezz = lul.
Farrah has toned down Mayology use since people started complaining heavily.
Burst/burst/flask/rezz/burst/burst/reincarnate is broken as well. I don't think you should be able to have multiple gems (this is why there is a level 2 gem - level 1 gems should not stack), and I think a cooldown on touching starbursts would go a long way too.
You also didn't have to fight it that incessantly, given Rom has the activity of a turtle with chronic hibernation patterns! Obviously I'm not gonna be loud when Rom's the only one that used it because a) who's even noticing and b) I'm not trying to give people ideas. That doesn't mean I wouldn't try to nerf it, just like it doesn't mean I find the new vitality artifact remotely reasonable.
A lot of this issue is, though, as everyone ever predicted, the result of the increasing power creep of talismans/promo items.
I'm also of the opinion that if alchemist is bad without mayo, that means alchemist needs a rework, not that mayo needs to stay.
Why aren't you guys complaining when I used Mayology on you guys