Classleads

Atalkez

I'm not disagreeing that it gets obnoxious. It's not just Farrah though. Proficy and Cooper take just as many to kill as she does, maybe one less. Jhui was the same. I've pointed it out before, and we did limit starbursts finally. I'm not sure what you reasonably expect though, now. One of her rezzes is gated behind a class (Rebirth), one is a SoW item (flask), 2 bursts, 2 gems. I could see limiting it to 1 gem instead of 2, but that's still going to be 2 bursts+flask+rebirth+gem at ground zero.

So what do you suggest? Remove flask? Limit it to 1 starburst per person? Or negate every investment a person has made by saying everyone gets 1 life and that's it? 

Kiet

I'm not posting to say Farrah is a bad person or that she's the only one doing this, only to say it's degenerate design.

IMO, you should get 1-2 rezzes per X minutes (5-10, something of the like), and that should include bursts, rezzes (doll, grove, devo, alch, self), and gems. After that, you're forced to pray. That'd make people yell about 'muh investment' though so vOv

Krypton

What is "2 gems"? One Rapid, one regular?

Achilles

I don't even think its that bad anymore, it wasn't that long ago where earrings were instant and you could have 14 starbursts up.  

Proficy could do the same thing Farrah does plus vitality.

Cooper

We definitely do the same, but neither Proficy or I have multiple gems. That is a huge difference. We also don't have factional rezz, which is a huge advantage as well.

The multiple bursts/flask/gems thing is pretty obviously broken, not really sure how you can try to justify it being balanced or fun.

Kiet

We used to have web/axk 1 shot but that doesn't mean other things aren't broken now.

RIP carmain, OG starburst abuser, should've starbursted him from retirement

Achilles

For this particular raid we didn't have a devotionist until Itkovian and Carmell joined in towards the end.  Mhaldor should have more alchemists if they need rez, we typically try to have a bard if we're fighting Mhaldor to counter gravehands better.  We would like some infiltration abilities but we make do with what we have.

I don't think its imbalanced per se since any DW could get up to 4 without any artefacts (2 bursts, rebirth, true death), there's also a point where dying that many times makes no sense (I have relaxed burst before when I'm in a hopeless situation).  

tl;dr it could be worse, Farrah could be Rajamalan and have 9 lives.

Frederich

I mean, "we don't have a factional rezz" is hardly the case.  Especially whenever you had Zackery there.

Who is an Alchemist.

And could have rezzed you.

I died one time with Carmell because we got like quadra-beckoned by our own team when I tried to get her out.  Then you rushed, you all died, our corpses were re-gotten, and then we were rezzed.  Farrah true-died once or twice during that engagement, and had to actually embrace, def up, earring in.

"Personal rez-bots" really isn't as much of an issue as you think it is, and with an alchemist in our group, I would almost certainly trade rez for soulcage + 33% true-damage to everyone in the room.

Especially whenever your soul-spear is a very direct counter to our rezzing.  Considering we need a body.  And you can just flat out destroy it without any delay.  No one on your team did to my, nor Carmell's corpse before you all rushed.

Also.  In one engagement Farrah could do..

Starburst, starburst, starburst (flask), die.  Rebirth away, ink > touch > ink,  starburst, starburst, die, gem, ink > touch > ink, starburst, starburst, die, gem2 away, ink > touch > ink, burst, burst, die.

This is assuming no rezzers on our side and dying = DEATH.  So, in one engagement, if she had the time (which she very much did during that last engagement before we back beckoned), she could have died a total of...  13 times.  10 if she didnt have a 2nd gem, 9 if she didnt have a stardust flask.  Proficy does this sort of shit often, except it's mostly just raido away, touch > ink, earring back in.

Kiet

yo who tf cares about the factional side of it. most of farrah's lives aren't factional rezz, it's still bad design.

Hataru

I just have to ask to make sure, @Frederich, but like... you know soulcage has a hella long timer, right? "Soulcage may only be used once every 6 Achaean days." (from the ab file) 

I wouldn't trade rez for soulcage ever, that's a ridiculous claim or one based on the fact that you don't know it has such a long cooldown. It literally can't be used more than once in the same raid. Like why would you trade infinite rezzes (theoretically) for ONE free death? ONE free death where either 1) you get killed defing back up 2) you blackwind away 3) still targetted by 10 people and die immediately anyway.

Frederich

Didn't know it was 6 days, but still it's why I said + vengeance.

Though, I have to admit, the faction benefit of Devotion Rezz allowsfor us to rezz people who embraced.  Which is always good.  It's a slight +1 over Alchemist rezz.

Hataru

Okay, let me repeat then.

Why would you trade ONE free death that has a 6 hour cool down and a move that does 33% to everyone in the room, including allies and citymates, for unlimited rezzes that you can do EVEN if the person embraced?

Edit: Also, since its not entirely clear in your post: idk if you think soulspear kills corpse on contact, it only removes the corpse if we are making the soulspear. Killing with one actually requires us to be out of the room so y'all are just as likely to pick up the corpse as we are - so I wouldn't really call that a total advantage, advantage there is just to whoever has the fastest corpse pick up trigger. So really not seeing your argument there either.

Also making a soulspear 100% has a balance.

Cooldown:          5.00 seconds of balance

Resource:          2.50% life essence
^ from the AB file

Xaden

I'm clearly rezzing wrong. I don't rez people until after the initial engagement has subsided. That's when I check for bodies and rez / decap as needed (sometimes mix those up too, but that's another issue entirely).

Taryius

Soulcage also eats 30% of your life essence (That is 30% if you have a full life essence pool, an even greater percent if you dont) which is pretty costly resource wise. 

But I'd give soulcage and vengeance for rezz 100%. Both could easily be altered for factional RP too, a fiery conflagration of holy fire on death and restoring to life on death. Unlike gravehands or something that is rotting death and decay.

Necromantic rezzing mmm.

Would do.

Xaden

This classlead season be like

Achilles

Yea, rezzing during a fight doesn't always help.  I know I've been auto-rezzed without my consent only to die a few more times, including a funny log where I died to a ground rune hitting deliverance, then rezzed to only die again to the next proc.  I got the last laugh though, my ground rune got me a kill as a soul.

Hataru

I just want to point out: I'm not trying to argue y'alls faction rez is a total fix. Because I'd rez, personally, exactly how @Xaden and @Achilles are saying if I had the ability - not actively all the time mid-combat. Unless it was done like (<- edit cause I missed two words that make my sentence make more sense ) doll rez, but then we get into being in not the main melee room and all that. I'd never auto-rez someone in room.

I'm just trying to point out that Fred doesn't really seem to know how Necromancy works and is making arguments based off really off base assumptions about our skills and that its damaging the conversation to act like soulcage and vengeance are these super crazy always used abilities that absolutely equal the playing field there, because they don't.

Also, seriously, vengeance has no real applicability if we aren't like chain breathraining a room and we have a necro go in and self-sacrifice to try and guarentee kills. Cause other wise we're just as likely to at least kill or really detriment our own people.

Aralaya

Only classleads I like are the delete Mhaldor ones.



(Only joking, y'all are alright)

Xaden

Report #199

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Submitted by: Anonymous      Status      : Submitted

Skill       : Misc       Ability     : Misc

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Problem:

Farrah, once again, has failed to be addressed in more recent classlead rounds. Everything she 
does is overpowered to the point of ridiculousness. It's unreasonable that she takes abilities and
buffs that are open to absolutely everyone and uses them better than anybody else. 

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Solution #1:

Limit Farrah to one engagement per serenade, or per IG month.

Solution #2:
Provide each city with their own factional Farrah.

Solution #3:
Delete Mhaldor. 

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Reyson

Second, I'd give up vengeance + soulcage for Necro rezz.

There are also probably more priests than there are Alchemists in all of Achaea, I think? Close-run thing for sure.

A cooldown on rezzes/being able to ink starbursts after death would be interesting. Nothing even that long, maybe like 2 minutes or something, would be a pretty interesting way to shake up the dynamic.

Xaden

There is a cool down on rez's. Was introduced during the war because of shaman rez. Applies across the board to all forms of rez.

There was also, I believe, a Nerf to gem of reincarnation recently enough (correct me if I'm wrong there).

The issue here is combatable by smarter game play, we've all had to adjust how we fight/lead groups particularly to combat certain skills/enemies.

I mean, you only really have to target Farrah if she's Mayology'd cos tbf Alchemist is kinda dog shit otherwise. If she's DW then she's no more threat than Atalkez or several others in group combat, so why target her when you have to kill her that many times to get rid of her?

I never call Proficy as first (or nearly anything but last) target for pretty much the same reason. Calling for massive nerfs because you can't lead a group properly is not the way to go.

Antonius

@Hataru Frederich said he'd trade Devotion rezz for Soulcage + Vengeance if we had an Alchemist. If you already have access to rezz from a non-Devotion source, you don't need Devotion rezz too, especially since the cooldown on non-doll resurrecting (which a worrying amount of people who raise classleads apparently aren't aware of) applies to the target, not the type of resurrection.

Yes, Soulcage's cooldown is 6 hours. So what? Gem of Transmutation has a 24 hour cooldown (plus a 10 minute cooldown on Gem resurrections to prevent consecutive self-rezzing), yet is a large part of why this entire conversation is taking place. Soulcage is still an additional life in one engagement.

Telendrieth

Man, reading some of the classleads.. I feel like @Makarios is going to just close them with an announce post of "Well, it was good while it lasted. We're going to be using the ever kind and eternally mature ideas from the forums from now on. kthxbye."

Krypton

Is gem literally the only artefact w/ combat implications that can be stacked? The special treatment is bollocks.

Voli

Forgive me for being a noob, I've only been reading this thread, but wouldn't a lot of the issues people seem to have with Farrah be fixed with like.. a 1-2 min cooldown attached to Mayology? Initially, it seemed that the problem was more than Farrah was able to use Mayology with every single life she had, and even if it was a death sentence it enabled her to (allegedly) secure at least 1-2 kills every life. If you attached a short cooldown to it, she'd still be able to participate with her investment but would only be 'overpowered' every so often, depending on the length of the engagement.

I don't participate in PK as of yet, so the majority of my feelings about multiple revives/lives is a bit indifferent, but the only way I've known games to manage skills that give you massive power boosts is to either put a cooldown on it, thus giving your competition at least a fighting chance, or by giving it diminishing returns (body builds up a resistance, blah blah).

Anyway, forgive my butting in as a nooblord (especially if I overlooked the obvious, since I'm just reading with interest), just skimmed through the last page or so and noted that everyone shifted from Mayology to how many lives a person should have in combat.

tl;dr short cooldown on mayology might fix a lot of the issues with Farrah and multiple lives equaling OP?

Atalkez

Wand of reflection stacks too, I believe.

The 10 minute CD was added to help alleviate, but obviously that hasn't been enough.

Also, Cooper, I'm not defending the mechanics. You can find posts from me years ago complaining about the same thing. I do think there is a double standard though. You have everything she has, minus one life. I have everything she has, minus one life. Proficy has everything she has, minus one life, but now he has Vitality. You also have staff thing now, which might as well be another life. I think there are many more things that cause imbalance than simply someone surviving so many times. So it gets kind of old hearing the 'she dies so much' when your team has basically all of the same things we have.

Point being, y'all can keep complaining, or you can provide solutions that make sense to the admins. 

Hataru

Hataru said:

I'm just trying to point out that Fred doesn't really seem to know how Necromancy works and is making arguments based off really off base assumptions about our skills[...]

@Antonius

Thanks for pointing out something that is irrelevant to my point. My point was literally that Fredrich knows nothing about Necromancy and should maybe look into the skills and their cooldowns, which he admitted to not knowing, before talking big and bad about them.

I literally even also said I'm not saying Dev-rezz is a fix all for you guys, so idk why out of everyone you're coming at me, instead of like idk the everyone else that's pretending it is or people actually calling for cooldowns.

Krypton

Atalkez said:

Wand of reflection stacks too, I believe.

No, wand doesn't stack (if one person owns multiple)

Kiet

how is there a double standard, I'm complaining about the very idea of rezzing that many times in a row, no matter who does it.

it's impossible to discuss the game's increasingly ridiculous combat balance when everything is taken as a personal attack simply because one person in your faction was used as an example.  I don't care who does it, the absurd amounts of rezzes people can stack is bad for gameplay. The only true counter to it is, as @Xaden said, to ignore the person or get 6 lives yourself.

The problem here is what  do you do as more people get 6 lives? Ignore everyone in a group and just don't engage? Hope everyone in your group has spent thousands of credits on arties and talismans AFTER all the other thousands of credits we already need for people to be useful? Let's use some common sense here. Mayology obviously makes the problem worse, but this is an issue without Mayo too.

It's degenerate game design because the only real counter is to do it yourself and 1) if everyone does it fights become ridiculous and 2) not everyone can do it. We've tried to lessen the effect of arties/credits over the years, but this goes counter to that.

A good solution has already been provided: capping the amount of rezzes you can fit in a window, including starburst. The issue obv is whether admins are actually going to do that (or some other solution that isn't just a bandaid) or if we're back to early 2000s design principles.

Rangor

Xaden said:

I'm clearly rezzing wrong. I don't rez people until after the initial engagement has subsided. That's when I check for bodies and rez / decap as needed (sometimes mix those up too, but that's another issue entirely).

In your queue action, check if gmcp.items.floor = corpse, check if corpse = targossan, then rezz, else attack.