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Atalkez

Nah, only mechanics that are trash artefact-wise are veils, gems and buckawns.


Purely my opinion. Mechanics that are incremental are fine, because it opens up the 'middle class' option for people. Can't afford that level 3 sip ring? No worries, look right here we have a level 2 ring that you can upgrade as you go!

Mechanics where you either have it or you don't, and that mechanic causing a disparity between players are not interesting in the slightest.

Asmodron

Im in support of removing artifacts that completely nullify a mechanic, such as scry/detection/sensing (veil) and webbing (buckawn). I'm okay with gem though, since people can still scry to check if a certain someone is around.

Devran

Minifie said:

I've read stupid arguments before, like, christians on morality, but that slippery slope has defied all odds and topped my list. Kudos.

Did you miss the part where I said it was a poor argument? It barely even qualifies as being serious. Then you go ahead and compare something I've said to a serious real world issue that I am extremely passionate about? Dude, go fuck yourself. You want to talk about lists? You just made the list of people I want absolutely nothing to do with in this game in any manner whatsoever. There's one other name on that list. Kudos to you too, asshole.

@Atalkez I can understand your opinion on the issue and respect it. And you are right, it is hard to defend veils rationally. Difficult to debate it with you with something other than "But I like them! They're cool! Don't take my cool things away please!"

Why buckawns? I wouldn't think immunity to web tattoo would warrant being lumped in with Veils.

Frederich

So.  The arguement here is "I don't want to interact with folks, so I hide behind this 2000cr artefact."

Know how much uproar there would be if a ship artefact was introduced that cost 2000cr and made you invisible on the seamap and shipwarning didn't show you at all?  But you still could get targetted and attacked by them?

Said artefact would be tied to one ship only.  Have more than 1 ship?  gotta pay 2000cr+ for each one if you dont wanna get ganked.


Veils are dumb, and the fact that this has gone on for so long is hilariously sad.

Kayeil

Atalkez said:

Kayeil said:

There are still those of us who want and use veils for non-combat reasons. I think the thing that needs to happen is once you've done something aggressive the defense drops for X amount of time. Therefore, the veil haters are met halfway when it comes to combat implications.

As for people who don't always want to be found and interact, so what? Not everyone is here to socialize every single minute they're in-game. If they want to interact with you, they will find you or go to some spot that is known for high traffic and interaction with other players.

Knowing you're online, or even being able to see what room you're currently AFK in, doesn't equate to interacting with you. Neither does it mean you have to socialize with anyone. I think you're getting 'being able to be seen' and 'being bothered' confused.

Besides that, you're hiding from who exactly? Not the people who bought the same thing you did, because they can find you regardless. So you're hiding from people who probably don't even know who you are? Seems trivial to lose, to me.

Not at all true, but I don't have to answer what really led me to buy my veil either. Certainly had nothing to do with combat implications, though.

Atalkez

Devran said:
Why buckawns? I wouldn't think immunity to web tattoo would warrant being lumped in with Veils.

Web is a front loaded hinder mechanic, where activation instantly hinders your opponent. However, there is no way to stop web tattoo, except paralyse/prone the person wanting to use web on you. Comparable mechanics are Hangedman/Web bomb/Hydra Bind/Snare/Traps. All of these are gated behind classes, and other things that require thought to use. Hangedman can miss, Bind is not always the best thing to use for Hydra, Web bomb can be cumbersome and is telegraphed, Traps are the same but once used it's gone and you have to reset it.

Web holds tons of charges, and it's basically a better version of Hangedman (it's faster with Aldar, and it can't miss where Hangedman can). So instead of addressing the fact that this mechanic is pretty ridiculous, we have buckawns.

So what does buckawns do? It stops web and web bomb. Only from players, though. 800 credits, to essentially nullify what amounts to a 500 gold tattoo.

On top of that, it's saturated much the same way veil has. When only 2 people had buckawns, hell yeah it was an artie that was important. Why? Because people abused the shit out of Web. These days, everyone has buckawns (or most people do. I don't), so it's a waste to even try to Web anyone now. Pretty much every 'big name' person who you would want to really be able to Web, has buckawns.

It's a mechanic where you either buy it and negate the OP tattoo that is Web, or you don't and you have to deal with the OP hinder that web provides for super super cheap. It's another mechanic where you either have it or you don't, and there is no middle ground.

They just don't work well, in my opinion.

Ryzeth

If you don't want to interact with people... Then don't interact with them? Rofl.

Devran said:
You just made the list

Okay Chris Jericho.

Mindshell

Frederich said:

So.  The arguement here is "I don't want to interact with folks, so I hide behind this 2000cr artefact."

Know how much uproar there would be if a ship artefact was introduced that cost 2000cr and made you invisible on the seamap and shipwarning didn't show you at all?  But you still could get targetted and attacked by them?

Said artefact would be tied to one ship only.  Have more than 1 ship?  gotta pay 2000cr+ for each one if you dont wanna get ganked.


Veils are dumb, and the fact that this has gone on for so long is hilariously sad.

That sounds amazing, suddenly out of the mists ol' Blackbeard and his undead crew sailing the galley Sea Ravager appears on top of the helpless cutter Madame le Waters, ready to plunder her strongbox and send her to the bottom of the great blue deep with several rounds from its mighty ballista still buried in her hull.

Atalkez

Kayeil said:

Atalkez said:

Kayeil said:

There are still those of us who want and use veils for non-combat reasons. I think the thing that needs to happen is once you've done something aggressive the defense drops for X amount of time. Therefore, the veil haters are met halfway when it comes to combat implications.

As for people who don't always want to be found and interact, so what? Not everyone is here to socialize every single minute they're in-game. If they want to interact with you, they will find you or go to some spot that is known for high traffic and interaction with other players.

Knowing you're online, or even being able to see what room you're currently AFK in, doesn't equate to interacting with you. Neither does it mean you have to socialize with anyone. I think you're getting 'being able to be seen' and 'being bothered' confused.

Besides that, you're hiding from who exactly? Not the people who bought the same thing you did, because they can find you regardless. So you're hiding from people who probably don't even know who you are? Seems trivial to lose, to me.

Not at all true, but I don't have to answer what really led me to buy my veil either. Certainly had nothing to do with combat implications, though.

To be clear, none of that was meant to be an attack on you at all.

Just saying, hiding is what veil/gem are for. That is their express purpose, and it's just not really holding water to logical discussion on whether or not it's a meaningful addition to the game.

Devran

Kayeil said:

Atalkez said:

Kayeil said:

There are still those of us who want and use veils for non-combat reasons. I think the thing that needs to happen is once you've done something aggressive the defense drops for X amount of time. Therefore, the veil haters are met halfway when it comes to combat implications.

As for people who don't always want to be found and interact, so what? Not everyone is here to socialize every single minute they're in-game. If they want to interact with you, they will find you or go to some spot that is known for high traffic and interaction with other players.

Knowing you're online, or even being able to see what room you're currently AFK in, doesn't equate to interacting with you. Neither does it mean you have to socialize with anyone. I think you're getting 'being able to be seen' and 'being bothered' confused.

Besides that, you're hiding from who exactly? Not the people who bought the same thing you did, because they can find you regardless. So you're hiding from people who probably don't even know who you are? Seems trivial to lose, to me.

Not at all true, but I don't have to answer what really led me to buy my veil either. Certainly had nothing to do with combat implications, though.

Was it super sekrit bashing? I bet it was super sekrit bashing. 

Totally acceptable imo also.

Frederich

@Mindshell

Lewd.  Tell me more of the strong... strapping Blackbeard's mighty... ballista....

Dochitha

What if veil's price is reduced to 200cr, will that cause the same problem as it's 2000cr? Is it a cost, or a mechanic issue? What if shroud pieces can be obtained for gold instead of MC? Is there a need to level this playing field at all?

Kayeil

Atalkez said:

Kayeil said:

Atalkez said:

Kayeil said:

There are still those of us who want and use veils for non-combat reasons. I think the thing that needs to happen is once you've done something aggressive the defense drops for X amount of time. Therefore, the veil haters are met halfway when it comes to combat implications.

As for people who don't always want to be found and interact, so what? Not everyone is here to socialize every single minute they're in-game. If they want to interact with you, they will find you or go to some spot that is known for high traffic and interaction with other players.

Knowing you're online, or even being able to see what room you're currently AFK in, doesn't equate to interacting with you. Neither does it mean you have to socialize with anyone. I think you're getting 'being able to be seen' and 'being bothered' confused.

Besides that, you're hiding from who exactly? Not the people who bought the same thing you did, because they can find you regardless. So you're hiding from people who probably don't even know who you are? Seems trivial to lose, to me.

Not at all true, but I don't have to answer what really led me to buy my veil either. Certainly had nothing to do with combat implications, though.

To be clear, none of that was meant to be an attack on you at all.

Just saying, hiding is what veil/gem are for. That is their express purpose, and it's just not really holding water to logical discussion on whether or not it's a meaningful addition to the game.

The incident and decision that led to me buying the veil several years ago had a lot to do with a person going after people in my Order to defend a person in the pre-Order who was going to where Order members were hunting on a frequent basis to take their gold and kills. This guy decides to get involved because we let Lady Pandora and the Order Head at the time know what was going (I was not OH yet), and he goes as far as to help this individual attempt to lie to Lady Pandora about me and others in the Order to get us kicked out (obviously this didn't pan out). I can't speak to what he did to other Order members, but to me specifically every time he was in realms he'd follow me everywhere I went hunting and make a general ass of himself. I could not shake him no matter where I went the entire time he was in realms. Eventually, I just got so fed up with the bullshit that I caved and bought the veil because I had the credits (they were easier to earn at the time), and I've not regretted the decision ever since. Basically, if I can avoid weirdos with this artefact because they aren't buying the veil, then to me it has been worth it so far. I'm not expecting anyone else to agree with me, but it is my experience and the veil has served its purpose for me personally.

Omor

I think we're kinda spiraling out of the threads purpose dedicating something like two pages to veil discussions that have happened over and over again in the past.

Kenway

Dochitha said:

What if veil's price is reduced to 200cr, will that cause the same problem as it's 2000cr? Is it a cost, or a mechanic issue? What if shroud pieces can be obtained for gold instead of MC? Is there a need to level this playing field at all?

If it was only 200cr it would be the first thing every single person bought as yet another barrier to entry for PvP and it would end up at a point where why does this exist? If every single person has it it no longer serves any purpose other than pay-gating.

Lucianus

I only bought a veil solely to be able to scry for other people with veils when I'm calling out locations of targets in raids.

Would not miss the veil if it got removed.

**edit: Also if you wanna avoid weirdos in the game. The Cloaking Gem will suffice. I bought it for a friend cause she kept getting unsolicited tells from strangers. But once she had the gem. No one has sent her a weird tell since. **

Kayeil

Lucianus said:

I only bought a veil solely to be able to scry for other people with veils when I'm calling out locations of targets in raids.

Would not miss the veil if it got removed.

**edit: Also if you wanna avoid weirdos in the game. The Cloaking Gem will suffice. I bought it for a friend cause she kept getting unsolicited tells from strangers. But once she had the gem. No one has sent her a weird tell since. **

Already had the gem. Did not work.

Melodie

I think if you feel you need to have a veil just to properly exist and play the game so others don't "bother" (a very vague term but we'll roll with it) you (in a non-combative sense), something somewhere went very wrong and should be approached and fixed via some other avenue.

Frederich

If people be harassing you.  (in this case picking up your gold).  Tell them to stop.

If they don't.  Kill them.

If they still refuse to, issue them.

Harassment is something that should be nipped at the roots, not have pretty flowers put around it that cost $580 usd.

Asmodron

Im going to assume you had attempted to issue about the harassment and got rejected, before deciding to throw 2k upon an artifact. Right? >>

Kayeil

Considering how looked down upon issues are in this community, I tend to avoid using that to "resolve" things. I have seen people get a simple warning for much worse things, so my faith in issues really resolving it were pretty low as well. I had the credits from hunting (these were MUCH easier to come by at the time and cost me no real life money), so I ended it myself.

Mathilda

What will happen if veil goes from 2000cr to 200cr:

Almost all people will purchase one. Since veil nullifies veil, these people will continue to play as they always have, except now, veil essentially becomes worthless. Everyone can see everyone

Joe Newbie, however, will log in and see maybe 5-10 people online. He piddles along for a week or two, eventually figuring out that there actually are more people than the 5-10 he's used to seeing. He can enjoy the perks of a visibly livelier world, too, for just 200cr...on top of the lessons he needs for skills, and the arguably more useful tanking artifacts.

Tl;dr it's not just the cost that's wrong with veil. The mechanic itself is inherently flawed.

Sobriquet

No one will complain if you issue for genuine harassment, that's exactly why Issues exist.

I dislike veils, I dislike the sheer ability to isolate yourself so drastically in a multiplayer environment. We already have enough ways to do that, we don't need one 24/7. 

Devran

Why do people hate veils if they don't hate Phase? Because people show up on WHO lists?

Ryzeth

Now you're just being dense.

Melodie

Phase has several ability-related counters. Veil is just money to combat money. One is used to hide you on an entirely different plane of reality, and you can only speak to other serpents there. The other just hides you from everyone while keeping you able to communicate and do everything normally without any form of hindrance.

Pretty clear difference.

Lucianus

Daeir said:

Veil mechanic needs counters outside of simply owning a veil. That's the biggest issue with it. If a class had a means to pierce the veil defense to locate someone with relative consistency, or there was a way to purchase ethereal shrouds with gold or whatever, then the mechanic would be acceptable as there'd be a strict IC counter for it that was resource based within the game, as opposed to it being "drop 500 irl bux to scry people who have one".

Eh, if there was way to purchase ethereal shrouds. Veil users will just buy a ton of them to avoid being scried by other Veil Users... who will in turn buy a bunch of ethereal shrouds just to scry Veil Users with Ethereal Shrouds.

Lucianus

Daeir said:

Which adds a massive goldsink to the game, exactly what we need.

Or drive up price of other things since every combatant will want a shroud to see Veil Users, who will in turn buy shrouds to avoid being seen by shroud users... who will buy a Veil to see those Veil users with shrouds. Or it might not even effect the surplus of gold at all since not everyone is a combatant and will just not care about the whole issue of not being able to see Veil owners.

Gold sinks are nice, but I think the source for gold sinks need to be in something beneficial for the comm markets and player-made products via tradeskills.

Kogan

Make the timer for veil def dropping on aggressive actions (attacking or being attacked) 3 minutes. If you haven't hit someone in 3 minutes they've likely gotten away anyways. Anything too short and its trivial for the person to keep their veil def up. Take shrouds out of SoW and promotions and just make them a 10k-15k item (or cheaper idc) as mentioned above. To make the previous part work maybe remove the lvl 2 veil defense gained from people using them while wearing a veil. Essentially making them just a temporary veil and nothing stronger. Allow people with contracts/bounties on someone to see through veil def. Ideally (but it won't likely happen) people who would not be happy with these changes to their veils are offered refunds of some sort. 

Lucianus

Na.. add Ethereal Shrouds as a trans skill to Conjuration. Players can set the price based on demand and how much it costs to make it.