Shrine Phase 3/Crusades - Final Form!

Daeir

Dunno what all the fuss about "tiers" is, tbh. I can't 1v1 for shit and I'm maybe passable in group combat most of the time (as passable as one can be with 260ms ping) and some of the most fun I've ever had is when I've been thrown at a group that is way more coordinated and way more organized. Just go in and die. Learn what's ggrekting you then ggrekt someone else.

Just play the game to have fun instead of getting to whatever tier. There's not enough of us around any more for people to really indulge themselves in anything else.

Xaden

The only way to get to the top tier is to mix it with the top tier, @Kiskan. And to practice. Atalkez has 4 RL years of PK unders his belt, Dunn/Jhui/Proficy all over a decade, closer to two.

But there are people at that tier or close to it who have significantly less experience but have embraced it full-on (I'm not one of them )

Kiskan

Daeir said:

Dunno what all the fuss about "tiers" is, tbh. I can't 1v1 for shit and I'm maybe passable in group combat most of the time (as passable as one can be with 260ms ping) and some of the most fun I've ever had is when I've been thrown at a group that is way more coordinated and way more organized. Just go in and die. Learn what's ggrekting you then ggrekt someone else.

Just play the game to have fun instead of getting to whatever tier. There's not enough of us around any more for people to really indulge themselves in anything else.

I really like group combat (like 3-6 people per side is ideal).  I can even live with being down hunted occasionally.  OCCASIONALLY.  

Xaden said:

The only way to get to the top tier is to mix it with the top tier, @Kiskan. And to practice. Atalkez has 4 RL years of PK unders his belt, Dunn/Jhui/Proficy all over a decade, closer to two.

But there are people at that tier or close to it who have significantly less experience but have embraced it full-on (I'm not one of them )

I mean, this is my point on the last page.  Let's be honest for a moment.  How many of us have both the talent (keep in mind, you can't go buy yourself some talent) and the work ethic to be top tier?  Not very many, and you need BOTH.  And that would be sort of okay... except it sounds like the top tier is REALLY going to stick it to you if you're remotely available for sticking.

Atalkez

We do stick it as often as we can, then (generally) offer tips afterwards.

I do have to disagree about talent. This game is 95% willpower driven when it comes to PK. Will you be completely out priced sometimes? Sure. That doesn't mean you give up though.

Im still way negative (about 2000) in my kdr. It took me years of constantly fighting and tweaking, grabbing an Artie here and there to get it. I don't have some inherent talent, maybe faster reading speed and comprehension than average. My typing speed is subpar, and my coding skill is mostly self taught. 

I simply started the game with my goal being be the best PKer in the game. While I've come to realize that I'm not and likely never will be - I do pretty damn good. That doesn't have anything to do with talent, it's all willpower to make the things you want a reality.

Kiskan

I have a really, really hard time believing that the talent aspect is nearly so miniscule - especially as you get closer to the top.  And to be clear, I don't mean "Atalkez is a big fat liar".  I mean "Atalkez probably doesn't realize he is actually fairly talented, in addition to having a strong work ethic".

The guys who are really good definitely DO work at their craft, so there is absolutely a work ethic element, and it's not nothing, but the talent aspect isn't some tiny portion that's almost an afterthought either.

Aegoth

talent is trash. Constant diligence and work on understanding combat is what gets you good. I'd take a PKer who spent 100 hours agonizing on perfecting 1 kill strat over some prettyboy talent "I'm inherently awesome with this class". Why? Because real skill comes from blood and sweat, not this mythical "talent" you seem to want to use as an excuse not to achieve top tier

Coamenel

Kiskan said:

I have a really, really hard time believing that the talent aspect is nearly so miniscule - especially as you get closer to the top.  And to be clear, I don't mean "Atalkez is a big fat liar".  I mean "Atalkez probably doesn't realize he is actually fairly talented, in addition to having a strong work ethic".

The guys who are really good definitely DO work at their craft, so there is absolutely a work ethic element, and it's not nothing, but the talent aspect isn't some tiny portion that's almost an afterthought either.

I don't know about the talent aspect. There is that one thing that makes the better pk-ers understand implications of skills and counterskills faster or better than me. But that is easily compensated by the patience and willingness of said pk-ers to explain it to me. How stupid my questions may be, I have not once experienced someone that told me to piss off.

For the rest, it's basically just practice practice practice. I've spent a RL month on combat and I think I've improved a lot. Sure, a meeting with @Dunn or @Jhui (or any other higher-tier pk-er) will end swiftly in their favour. But I can at least do something with an idea behind it (whereas first, I was wondering what the f*ck I was doing anyway).

So I'd say it's 90% work and practice, and 10% reading/getting things explained.

Daeir

I'd argue that the constant diligence and work IS the talent, not the natural ability to be proficient at something.

Sure, you can take to something quickly, but the real struggle comes from mastery - and no matter how amazing you are at something, it is exceptionally rare to approach any level of mastery without a significant time investment into it.

Atalkez was forged in the crucible of grief, like every other good fighter. Giving no fucks about dying or loss in general is how you win.

Driden

Aegoth said:

talent is trash. Constant diligence and work on understanding combat is what gets you good. I'd take a PKer who spent 100 hours agonizing on perfecting 1 kill strat over some prettyboy talent "I'm inherently awesome with this class". Why? Because real skill comes from blood and sweat, not this mythical "talent" you seem to want to use as an excuse not to achieve top tier

GG Aegoth calm down man. Just forum pked this guy. 

Cailan

Something that hasn't been mentioned that I think plays an important role is experience/exposure, which is related to diligence but not really. The so called top tier fighters have literally years of experience under their belt. A lot of being a decent or better PKer is just going out and getting your ass kicked and figuring out why and what to do better. Especially for specific class tricks that require unorthodox curing priorities and whatnot in order for survival.

And ask questions. Especially the stupid ones. @Farrah @Karren deal with my ridiculously newbish questions daily.

Kiskan

Daeir said:

Atalkez was forged in the crucible of grief, like every other good fighter. Giving no fucks about dying or loss in general is how you win.

For the people saying "they have years of experience" about some of the top tier, that's true actually.  And they've also been on top for most of those years.  So pretty early on, they were able to get to the top and stay there ever since.   

The essential truth of a "crucible of grief" culture is very different than a "keep trying to get better" culture.  The first might have some aspects of a "keep trying to get better" culture (like people willing to give tips) but it's a whole different attitude. 

A crucible of grief culture says "if I can make it, and become part of that top tier, it was obviously ALL my hard work, you're all just lazy cowards who need to keep getting owned more", except... people are always bragging about how "easy" something or other was for them to master in the first place, while others continue to struggle with basics.  Except in a situation like right now, where the talent aspect is sort of being called on the carpet, in a way.  And even if they don't brag, the sheer ease with which they progress is usually apparent.  Yeah, they get owned in the beginning, but they are able to keep progressing without ever really getting "stuck" (for long) the way most people do.  That is talent.

But most importantly, the other side of that coin is that if you don't have the talent to eventually be a true competitor in a "crucible of grief", but you keep going back for more, you're basically a sucker.  Because that system ultimately views everyone who isn't top tier or going to BECOME top tier as disposable.

Ryzeth

Please stop.

Bann

As someone who's been a top-tier fighter in two games besides Achaea, I don't agree with you at all, @Kiskan. Not even a little bit. Your view is so warped and twisted that my tiny, black warrior's heart actually feels a little pity for you.

Daeir

tl;dr: play more, forum less.

Did wonders for me. If I'd spent 10% of the effort playing the game instead of bitching about pre-nerf kaichokes, I'd probably have gotten over it a lot sooner. Nothing really phases me anymore, not after that.

Dunn

PHASE

R u doin it wrong?

Farrah

We don't even have a "crucible of grief." All combat is optional and you can largely use arena spars and combat rankings to learn if you don't want to actually die.

If you want to do group combat, all you have to do is accept the combat culture that comes with it. You don't have to be top tier or be "griefed." Like, if you help kill Proficy, know that you're going to be considered by him to "owe" him a death. As long as you don't care about that death, there's not really any harm or anything following you around eternally.

The softies like me don't even collect that death, unless there's a writ, bounty, or contract on you over it. But worst case is pretty much one death after everything.

Coamenel

Farrah said:

We don't even have a "crucible of grief." All combat is optional and you can largely use arena spars and combat rankings to learn if you don't want to actually die.

If you want to do group combat, all you have to do is accept the combat culture that comes with it. You don't have to be top tier or be "griefed." Like, if you help kill Proficy, know that you're going to be considered by him to "owe" him a death. As long as you don't care about that death, there's not really any harm or anything following you around eternally.

The softies like me don't even collect that death, unless there's a writ, bounty, or contract on you over it. But worst case is pretty much one death after everything.

Ah so that's why he loljumped me the other day!  

Nazihk

Farrah said:

If you want to do group combat, all you have to do is accept the combat culture that comes with it. You don't have to be top tier or be "griefed." Like, if you help kill Proficy, know that you're going to be considered by him to "owe" him a death. As long as you don't care about that death, there's not really any harm or anything following you around eternally.

And if you accept this fact and just challenge him to a straight up 1v1 over it you'll probably resolve it in under 5 minutes and then you can go about your merry way. 

Kenway

Can confirm. My SC 3 lists like 90 something kills but I'm pretty sure everyone is aware that it's mostly due to me living in the arena and my kills including arena probably approach 2k

Jarrel

You just need a logical approach to your offense to be top tier. I break my attacks into time based tables with afflictions and match it to a time based opposing cures and flow chart it. Once I figure out what can work, then you put it into practice on afk people or you ask them if you can 'test' till they die lulz. Then you go and put it into practice in the real world.

Dunn

Are you attacking people irl Jarrel??????? 

Prythe

Dunn said:

Are you attacking people irl Jarrel??????? 

Only if they are afk, I think.

(IRL afk = looking down at cell phone while world moves around you.)

Jarrel

Ofcourse I am, I am a dentist, every single day is a vicious assault on someone's oral cavity. And I get paid to do it.

Dunn

Are you alting? I miss your sass. 

Asmodron

Reviving this for a moment.

Could we perhaps have a way to access Nishnatoba during a Crusade, without the need of having an order member on prime to do so?


It can be a bit frustrating either waiting for an order member to wake up or requiring one to have to jump back on prime to haul the asses of those that woke up/returned from halls.


The landing spot could be the portal location in Nish, or some other generic spot up there.


Ideas of how this could be made possible:

1. When a crusade starts, a portal opens at the Shrine of Ascension, of which any can enter to access Nish

2. When a crusade starts, one can go to the shrine of ascension and put in some command (Let us say TRANSCEND NISHNATOBA) which will begin a 10 second channel from them to be transported to nish

3. New small artifact that will allow one to enter Nish from their location during a crusade, after a small channel.

4. Go to Tomacula and touch the statue of Khalas to be transported (Would be wrong if I didnt include this somehow)

Sarathai

I like the limitation that it requires an Order member to access it. Yes, in some cases you'll have to send somebody back to the main plane to fetch people if they die and need to embrace (Eleusis had that issue in the crusade that just happened now), but that's also just part of strategy. It also encourages people to watch for the pillars etc. to see who's coming and going and keep track of who's going where in the area.

Mathilda

The limitations of Crusading (and anything shrine-related, to be honest) are just more felt in Hashan, due to the nature of Twilight's Order.

Frederich

Ashtan has.. 2 people who can drop you in there.
Hashan has... 3-4 people who can.
Targossas has like 15+ people who can.
Mhaldor has 4-5 people (?)
Eleusis has 9-10 people, if not more.

It's mostly an issue with cities that have dual divine that cause people to want to join an order.

Sarathai

Frederich said:

Ashtan has.. 2 people who can drop you in there.
Hashan has... 3-4 people who can.
Targossas has like 15+ people who can.
Mhaldor has 4-5 people (?)
Eleusis has 9-10 people, if not more.

Targ probably has the most by a massive margin, since last I was told Aurora's order has 20+ people in it.

Ashtan also has the Aegis order members and so on, though. It's not just city patrons.

Frederich

I originally did it by order (babel went there).

Aegis' order also applies to Hashan, Eleusis, and Ashtan, at that point then.  Increasing their numbers.