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Shrine Phase 3/Crusades - Final Form!

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  • AereidhnaAereidhna DallasMember Posts: 682 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Is witnessing supposed to give someone valid justification to attack? @Nicola @Makarios If not, can something be done about folks killing people who witness just to collect kills for their resolutions?
  • ShirszaeShirszae Santo DomingoMember Posts: 3,411 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Aereidhna said:
    Is witnessing supposed to give someone valid justification to attack? @Nicola @Makarios If not, can something be done about folks killing people who witness just to collect kills for their resolutions?
    Yes, once you witness someone they can attack you.

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...


    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

  • AereidhnaAereidhna DallasMember Posts: 682 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Shirszae said:
    Aereidhna said:
    Is witnessing supposed to give someone valid justification to attack? @Nicola @Makarios If not, can something be done about folks killing people who witness just to collect kills for their resolutions?
    Yes, once you witness someone they can attack you.
    This seems unnecessarily circular (witnessing as retaliation for dusting shrine, then getting killed for witnessing, which would then if I were a PKer lead to retaliation, and on and on and on) but okay.
    Ysela
  • KryptonKrypton shi-KhurenaMember Posts: 2,377 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Witnessing already gives you a writ to attack the defiler, so there isn't any further retaliation to be gained from the defiler defending himself.
  • AereidhnaAereidhna DallasMember Posts: 682 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited January 2017
    Well, yeah, I was looking at the right to attack or hire from a writ being in retaliation for the actual dusting of the shrine. While witnessing I didn't attack anyone, planning to hire later, which would then of course give them the ability to fight back against whoever was hired. I didn't realize witnessing in and of itself was considered aggressive without acting on the writ, but cool beans. Good to know. 
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 5,363 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Aereidhna said:
    Well, yeah, I was looking at the right to attack or hire from a writ being in retaliation for the actual dusting of the shrine. While witnessing I didn't attack anyone, planning to hire later, which would then of course give them the ability to fight back against whoever was hired. It just seems strange that they can get an additional kill on me when I'm not actually attacking them, but cool beans. Good to know. 
    Why is it strange that, when you (as an enemy, obviously) enter the room of your enemies that are attacking an idol of your God - they would just let you grab what amounts to an 'I'll attack you later"?

    There was a bad problem with people walking into the room, basically saying 'neener neener, u can't hit me' while getting a writ. It makes much more sense to do it this way than previously.

    Deucalion has cowardly declined the challenge of Atalkez to engage in mortal combat.

    You hug Aurora compassionately.
    Aodfionn
  • AereidhnaAereidhna DallasMember Posts: 682 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited January 2017
    Okay! I can see how it would make sense if this were a thing that happened to you often. This is my first experience getting a writ on anyone, ever, on any character (the only Order I was in in the past I don't recall if we had any shrine conflict but I also probably would have forgotten by now as it was over a decade ago). So my main concern was making sure I'm not hiring on people unjustly. I am glad for the clarification, I'm not arguing that the way things are set up is bad. I was told the direct opposite ICly and it sounded odd to me so I came here to get confirmation and I'm especially glad I did now.
    AtalkezBann
  • SarathaiSarathai Member Posts: 2,139 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 2017
    Makarios said:
    This is actually my inclination as well. Raising seems about right, the ease of dropping still seems to lean a bit too far in the attackers favour though.

    We'll discuss options. My initial inclination would be to either increase judgement base costs and or how aggressively it scales on consecutive uses, or to simply make it cost more to drop a shrine.

    @Makarios I'm not sure that increasing judgement base costs or its scaling will overly influence shrine dropping at present. As we've seen (on just about all sides I'm aware of, anyway), past the initial use of judgement people will generally just let themselves be killed to provide the necessary corpse. Level limitation isn't really hurting either, because of just how damn many dragons there are nowadays.
    - (Eleusis): Ellodin says, "The Fissure of Echoes is Sarathai's happy place."
    - With sharp, crackling tones, Kyrra tells you, "The ladies must love you immensely."
    - (Eleusian Ranger Techs): Savira says, "Most of the hard stuff seem to have this built in code like: If adventurer_hitting_me = "Sarathai" then send("terminate and selfdestruct")."
    - Makarios says, "Serve well and perish."
    - Xaden says, "Xaden confirmed scrub 2017."



  • SenoskeSenoske Member Posts: 162 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited January 2017
    Dunn said:
    At one point yesterday I had 17 heads in my inventory from gathering headless to defile and was trying to imagine how this would look in practice. All I could think of was 



    I musta been like 8 of those. Le sigh.

    Thank god I'm Dragon. The exp loss would be insane otherwise.
  • NaomaNaoma Member Posts: 58 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Senoske said:
    Dunn said:
    At one point yesterday I had 17 heads in my inventory from gathering headless to defile and was trying to imagine how this would look in practice. All I could think of was 



    I musta been like 8 of those. Le sigh.

    Thank god I'm Dragon. The exp loss would be insane otherwise.
    hmph I only lost about.....a lot last night! LOL
  • SenoskeSenoske Member Posts: 162 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Naoma said:
    Senoske said:
    Dunn said:
    At one point yesterday I had 17 heads in my inventory from gathering headless to defile and was trying to imagine how this would look in practice. All I could think of was 



    I musta been like 8 of those. Le sigh.

    Thank god I'm Dragon. The exp loss would be insane otherwise.
    hmph I only lost about.....a lot last night! LOL
    I keep telling you to go hunt. Don't hmph. Get dargon.
    Bann
  • ProficyProficy Member Posts: 419 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Hey dropping shrines actually burns more essence than raising them... think i burnt through over 3 million essence on judgement alone the day... got up to 700k per judgement at the end..
    If anything the amount of corpses to RAISE and drop shrines could be raised. But it already takes forever right now with small essence corpses.. maybe doubling the essence needed to drop and raise, but allowing more than 1 person to defile at a time again?
  • DunnDunn Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 6,303 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    You know you can use a single headless corpse >80 to dust on dormant right?


  • XadenXaden Member Posts: 2,315 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 2017
    Dunn said:
    You know you can use a single headless corpse >80 to dust on dormant right?
    Shrines can take a couple of corpses past dormant so gotta make sure you've gotten that 'Your offering is insufficient...' message first... 

    Otherwise... facepalm city
         He is a coward who has to bring two friends as backup to jump people hunting.

  • DunnDunn Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 6,303 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Yeah, that's annoying when you only have one headless. Just DOR until you hit the insufficient message. 


    Morthif
  • ProficyProficy Member Posts: 419 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Well no one ever comes to defend a shrine unless they have stupid amount of numbers/defenders..
    I give props to those who do show up solo like they should.
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 5,363 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Jarrel said:
    Atalkez said:
    Kiskan said:
    Right.  Basically, if you're dumb enough to actually brag about being a griefer in one IRE game (even using the word "griefer"), for hours at a time, day in and day out, to anyone who will listen, or even anyone who won't listen, someone might call you out on your "aw shucks, man I can't believe what an asshat that guy is" bs routine from time to time.  Anyway, shrines!

    Let's be real though. Any PKer has moments of grieftastic excellence, myself included.

    I remember when a certain someone still played, this dude would gank me anywhere at anytime if I was even close to open. RIP lvl 50 Mark days. Jarrel, and Sohl too.

    Fucking griefers. Gotta love 'em.
    You must know how boring it gets just sitting around, being refused duels, spars, noone to jump, cities on high alert so no incursions. Can't bring myself to bash. Beggars can't be choosers, sorry pal.
    I know the struggle all too well.

    Deucalion has cowardly declined the challenge of Atalkez to engage in mortal combat.

    You hug Aurora compassionately.
  • KenwayKenway San FranciscoMember Posts: 1,130 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Too bad we didnt get to see the twilight dragons in that last crusade. The love/hate with group combat is too intense sometimes. Its like the most fun thing there is and then theres a lag spike and you emerge dead and youre like oh i could have avoided that and then your laptop is across the room embeded in the drywall.

    - Limb Counter - Fracture Relapsing -
    "Honestly, I just love that it counts limbs." - Mizik Corten
    AhmetXaden
  • KiskanKiskan Member Posts: 157 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited January 2017
    Atalkez said:
    Jarrel said:
    Atalkez said:
    Kiskan said:
    Right.  Basically, if you're dumb enough to actually brag about being a griefer in one IRE game (even using the word "griefer"), for hours at a time, day in and day out, to anyone who will listen, or even anyone who won't listen, someone might call you out on your "aw shucks, man I can't believe what an asshat that guy is" bs routine from time to time.  Anyway, shrines!

    Let's be real though. Any PKer has moments of grieftastic excellence, myself included.

    I remember when a certain someone still played, this dude would gank me anywhere at anytime if I was even close to open. RIP lvl 50 Mark days. Jarrel, and Sohl too.

    Fucking griefers. Gotta love 'em.
    You must know how boring it gets just sitting around, being refused duels, spars, noone to jump, cities on high alert so no incursions. Can't bring myself to bash. Beggars can't be choosers, sorry pal.
    I know the struggle all too well.
    The more I think about it and see how people seem to feel about fighting over here, the more it feels like you almost have to ask yourself "do I REALLY think I can get to the top tier, or at least reasonably close"?  And of course, you have to be honest and discerning with yourself.  If the answer is no (which for many people it might be, because how many people can really be near the top?), and you still want to PK a bit, I guess you have to look for those very strictly limited engagements (like raid defense, basically, I suppose).  Because if you're not in the top tier (and you can't GET to the top tier), the top tier is going to eat you alive if you just "jump into some PK".     

    I realize that sounds radical (but on the other hand it feels a lot like common sense).  Because it just seems like it's going to be that intense.  I was sort of toying with the idea of using Achaea as a sort of training ground and do some group combat since my game is super quiet, but the more I see, the more I think I'd be in WAY, WAY, WAY over my head, despite having picked up a few more skills than I'd ever had when I played here.

    EDIT:  basically, sort of plodding along and just "getting better" will never, ever be enough here if you're really going to jump in.  You need to have both the god given talent (which you either have or do not have) AND the commitment.
  • XadenXaden Member Posts: 2,315 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    The only way to get to the top tier is to mix it with the top tier, @Kiskan. And to practice. Atalkez has 4 RL years of PK unders his belt, Dunn/Jhui/Proficy all over a decade, closer to two.

    But there are people at that tier or close to it who have significantly less experience but have embraced it full-on (I'm not one of them :D )
         He is a coward who has to bring two friends as backup to jump people hunting.

  • KiskanKiskan Member Posts: 157 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Daeir said:
    Dunno what all the fuss about "tiers" is, tbh. I can't 1v1 for shit and I'm maybe passable in group combat most of the time (as passable as one can be with 260ms ping) and some of the most fun I've ever had is when I've been thrown at a group that is way more coordinated and way more organized. Just go in and die. Learn what's ggrekting you then ggrekt someone else.

    Just play the game to have fun instead of getting to whatever tier. There's not enough of us around any more for people to really indulge themselves in anything else.
    I really like group combat (like 3-6 people per side is ideal).  I can even live with being down hunted occasionally.  OCCASIONALLY.  

    Xaden said:
    The only way to get to the top tier is to mix it with the top tier, @Kiskan. And to practice. Atalkez has 4 RL years of PK unders his belt, Dunn/Jhui/Proficy all over a decade, closer to two.

    But there are people at that tier or close to it who have significantly less experience but have embraced it full-on (I'm not one of them :D )
    I mean, this is my point on the last page.  Let's be honest for a moment.  How many of us have both the talent (keep in mind, you can't go buy yourself some talent) and the work ethic to be top tier?  Not very many, and you need BOTH.  And that would be sort of okay... except it sounds like the top tier is REALLY going to stick it to you if you're remotely available for sticking.
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 5,363 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    We do stick it as often as we can, then (generally) offer tips afterwards.

    I do have to disagree about talent. This game is 95% willpower driven when it comes to PK. Will you be completely out priced sometimes? Sure. That doesn't mean you give up though.

    Im still way negative (about 2000) in my kdr. It took me years of constantly fighting and tweaking, grabbing an Artie here and there to get it. I don't have some inherent talent, maybe faster reading speed and comprehension than average. My typing speed is subpar, and my coding skill is mostly self taught. 

    I simply started the game with my goal being be the best PKer in the game. While I've come to realize that I'm not and likely never will be - I do pretty damn good. That doesn't have anything to do with talent, it's all willpower to make the things you want a reality.

    Deucalion has cowardly declined the challenge of Atalkez to engage in mortal combat.

    You hug Aurora compassionately.
    SenoskeKenwayVender
  • KiskanKiskan Member Posts: 157 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I have a really, really hard time believing that the talent aspect is nearly so miniscule - especially as you get closer to the top.  And to be clear, I don't mean "Atalkez is a big fat liar".  I mean "Atalkez probably doesn't realize he is actually fairly talented, in addition to having a strong work ethic".

    The guys who are really good definitely DO work at their craft, so there is absolutely a work ethic element, and it's not nothing, but the talent aspect isn't some tiny portion that's almost an afterthought either.
  • AegothAegoth Member Posts: 2,922 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    talent is trash. Constant diligence and work on understanding combat is what gets you good. I'd take a PKer who spent 100 hours agonizing on perfecting 1 kill strat over some prettyboy talent "I'm inherently awesome with this class". Why? Because real skill comes from blood and sweat, not this mythical "talent" you seem to want to use as an excuse not to achieve top tier
    BannDridenVender
  • CoamenelCoamenel Member Posts: 188 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Kiskan said:
    I have a really, really hard time believing that the talent aspect is nearly so miniscule - especially as you get closer to the top.  And to be clear, I don't mean "Atalkez is a big fat liar".  I mean "Atalkez probably doesn't realize he is actually fairly talented, in addition to having a strong work ethic".

    The guys who are really good definitely DO work at their craft, so there is absolutely a work ethic element, and it's not nothing, but the talent aspect isn't some tiny portion that's almost an afterthought either.
    I don't know about the talent aspect. There is that one thing that makes the better pk-ers understand implications of skills and counterskills faster or better than me. But that is easily compensated by the patience and willingness of said pk-ers to explain it to me. How stupid my questions may be, I have not once experienced someone that told me to piss off.

    For the rest, it's basically just practice practice practice. I've spent a RL month on combat and I think I've improved a lot. Sure, a meeting with @Dunn or @Jhui (or any other higher-tier pk-er) will end swiftly in their favour. But I can at least do something with an idea behind it (whereas first, I was wondering what the f*ck I was doing anyway).

    So I'd say it's 90% work and practice, and 10% reading/getting things explained.
  • DridenDriden Member Posts: 420 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Aegoth said:
    talent is trash. Constant diligence and work on understanding combat is what gets you good. I'd take a PKer who spent 100 hours agonizing on perfecting 1 kill strat over some prettyboy talent "I'm inherently awesome with this class". Why? Because real skill comes from blood and sweat, not this mythical "talent" you seem to want to use as an excuse not to achieve top tier
    GG Aegoth calm down man. Just forum pked this guy. 
    Cooper said:
    This is one of the worst forms of special snowflake RP I've ever seen. Thanks for going to another city to do it!
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