The Bal'met event

Yen

Thaumas said:

It rests on assumption that monarchy in strictest sense (rule of one person, not a hereditary monarchy) is by itself a bad thing because, gosh, where are the human rights in such a society? 

Even monarchies have a theological basis--divine right of kings, and all that.  In Asian societies you have the mandate of heaven (different theology but same basic concept).  Go back farther, and the ancient kings would often claim to be gods themselves or at least descended from gods.

Pure authoritarianism (god not included) is pretty modern actually.

Thaumas

Yes, European monarchies also operated by "the Grace of God" up to 1918.

Shahai

I heard that in Scandinavia, at Viking age, they could even change their king when this one failed to his duties. Because if he's set there by Gods, and he fails, it means Gods forsaken him.

Skye

Yeah that falls along the same lines as the Chinese mandate of heaven. When everything goes fine it's okay. Then all the natural disasters start coming. Obviously if your goverment has good infra-structure and you are prepared and able to provide ample disaster relief then nobody's going to complain all that much. But if nature craps on you and your own emperor craps on you then that means that particular dynasty has lost the divine authority to rule. >_>

Arlanda

Weird that given Han-Tolneth is made the call to drop embers at the lake we don't see Mhaldorians doing something to prevent people from dropping the embers. WHERE ARE THE EVIL PEOPLE!!

Skye

Too busy being raided.

I think you can drop embers from multiple rooms anyway so it's gonna be hell to defend unless you run a perpetual cata which they can only partly take advantage of due to v small Magi population (unlike say certain other cities with giant Magi pop). In an area-wide ranged situation, they'll still lose out to the likes of just Ashtan alone.

Rather than a hopeless hole-filled defence situation, they should be given some more constructive counter measure attempt.

Salindera

Thaumas said:

The whole gripe about authoritarianism is distinctly post-1945 European and North American worldview implanted into a fantasy world, just as silly as searching for clues to make LoTR an analogy of RL with Mordor as Nazi Germany etc.

While I don't disagree with the overall point about Shallamese leadership, I do think it's worth noting that many of our concepts about, say, equal rights are also decidedly modern, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't import it into a fantasy setting. While some of the current negative connotation of authoritarianism is perhaps placing too much of the blame for social ills on government type, quite a lot of it is probably appropriate. After all, while the enlightenment did occur centuries ago, it certainly did not solve many of the issues of that time, as you still were often screwed if you weren't wealthy or nobility, and even then were if you were female. 

To tie this back in, while one likely can construct some form of dictatorship that still maintains human rights (some level of which are probably necessary for the furthering of 'Good' within the game), it takes on a decidedly different notion then dictatorships and monarchies have had traditionally. By necessity, rulership in historical dictatorships was pretty much limited to either a ruling family or by the leader of whatever revolution managed to take control of the country. I would argue that both of these are probably inherently somewhat antithetical to overall human rights, as they strip either equality or agency from individuals. However, this is not a problem that should be encountered by whatever emerges to replace Shallam. As the divine mandate in this instance is very literal and is able to pull leadership from whomever, rather then from a particular family, most of the negative aspects of authoritarianism can be ultimately avoided.

TL;DR: IRL authoritarianism sucked and did kill human rights, and problems with it should be kept in mind in the creation of whatever new government forms, but there is no feasible way for it to actually be represented in game.

Draekar

-Yawn- Shallam 2.0 should be an oligarchy with the primary despot a denizen. The denizen can be programmed to randomly post or say on ct a distinct list of things. Like "Go raid Mhaldor/Hasha/Ashtan", "Go defile shrines", "Stop snuggling you dumbasses".

The denizen should also be programmed to randomly execute a city leader/minister every couple years and then replace them randomly with someone off cwho.

I will buy many credits if @sarapis makes this happen!

Thaumas

Lack of ultimate authority leads to "my Good is better than yours" Good. Internet backdraft in a fantasy environment. Lack of it is what made Shallam look like reading Youtube comments on a video about the architecture in Vatican.

Dracot

If Ashtan got smushed I think I'd take up residency atop the Temple of Art and be the Unmoving Weaver.

Arlanda

Dracot said:

If Ashtan got smushed I think I'd take up residency atop the Temple of Art and be the Unmoving Weaver.

If Ashtan got smushed.... Mhaldor would get raided 24/7

Vansittart

Salindera said:

Thaumas said:

The whole gripe about authoritarianism is distinctly post-1945 European and North American worldview implanted into a fantasy world, just as silly as searching for clues to make LoTR an analogy of RL with Mordor as Nazi Germany etc.

While I don't disagree with the overall point about Shallamese leadership, I do think it's worth noting that many of our concepts about, say, equal rights are also decidedly modern, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't import it into a fantasy setting. While some of the current negative connotation of authoritarianism is perhaps placing too much of the blame for social ills on government type, quite a lot of it is probably appropriate. After all, while the enlightenment did occur centuries ago, it certainly did not solve many of the issues of that time, as you still were often screwed if you weren't wealthy or nobility, and even then were if you were female. 

To tie this back in, while one likely can construct some form of dictatorship that still maintains human rights (some level of which are probably necessary for the furthering of 'Good' within the game), it takes on a decidedly different notion then dictatorships and monarchies have had traditionally. By necessity, rulership in historical dictatorships was pretty much limited to either a ruling family or by the leader of whatever revolution managed to take control of the country. I would argue that both of these are probably inherently somewhat antithetical to overall human rights, as they strip either equality or agency from individuals. However, this is not a problem that should be encountered by whatever emerges to replace Shallam. As the divine mandate in this instance is very literal and is able to pull leadership from whomever, rather then from a particular family, most of the negative aspects of authoritarianism can be ultimately avoided.

TL;DR: IRL authoritarianism sucked and did kill human rights, and problems with it should be kept in mind in the creation of whatever new government forms, but there is no feasible way for it to actually be represented in game.

Not to beat a dead horse here, but discussion of Shallam and the "Good" faction are often rife with this kind of confusion.  There is an absolute distinction between (a) what is good in the real world, and what we should encourage in the real world, and (b) what is narratively exciting for a Good faction in an online text game.

You don't need to "avoid the negative aspects of authoritarianism" and reconcile it with a modern conception of human rights, you just need to do what's good for the game.  It is purely a question of what will make Shallam the most interesting, rich, conflict-generating, kick-ass embodiment of its factional role.  All questions of RL morality are utterly irrelevant, and will lead you completely astray.  We're not here to be nice.  We're not here to promote a moral agenda.  We're not here to make a nice, comforting environment that makes people feel better about their real life.  We're here to tell a story, the best story we can.  I don't want to read a story about Scandinavian democracy and the rule of law.

Blujixapug

Confusing cross-post from Quotes...

Draekar said:

RIP The Templar Tavern! I will miss thee more than Shallam

Got me thinking what I'd miss from Shallam.

That awesome torc, and its secret bonus powers that hardly anyone knew about and the people who did know kept quiet.

Simbata the elephant.

I feel like this list should be longer.

Kyrra

The strawberry platters from Sahart's restaurant.

Sylvance

What all did happen to the Shallamese subd?  Read: Now that Cyrene has (rightly or wrongly) drawn a huge target on its back, do I need to worry about the real money that I put into my player-house in Cyrene?

ETA: Engrish

Mishgul

The answer is yes

Sobriquet

When I was a newbie, that little elephant quest was the first one I ever figured out for myself, I used to do it over and over and over.

RIP Simbata

Synbios

Kyrra said:

The strawberry platters from Sahart's restaurant.

The seafood delights. 

I'll miss that buttery prawn, lobster, shellfish platters. Sahart's was food porn to the max.

Ruth

I miss the sun tea from Sahart's! >_> Ruth's favourite drink.

Kaevan

Sylvance said:

I think that IGly (as well as IRL) people will more likely vote for a name that they recognise and dislike than a 'Who?' candidate.  Happy to be proved wrong but, as has already been said, short of a fundamental change in the fundamental principles of Shallam, this will simply be a rerun.

I would rather see a new City emerge from this disaster than a New Shallam.

Ah, I think I see your problem here -- all of this 'democracy' and 'voting'.

Oceana

The charming little charm shop.... I hope its business will continue elsewhere.

Kyrra

I wasn't really a fan of the charm shop. Both the bracelets and the charms themselves were relatively expensive, and from memory, you couldn't repair them through jewellery.

Arlanda

Ruth said:

I miss the sun tea from Sahart's! >_> Ruth's favourite drink.

Not like you could buy it as HL of Ebonfist. HAHA

Lucine

@Oceana :  That is FAR too happy of sky.  This sky is pissed off eggplant.



ETA: It is my hope that someone got a person who knows the recipe to everything in Sahart's.  Otherwise, New Shallam is going to be a sad, sad place.  And hungry too.

Alyssea

Now it is angry.

Also, ermahgerd, this computer has Photoshop. Never actually used it before since I'm not willing to pay $100+ just to edit pictures.

Tvistor

@Alyssea Masterwork.

Trilliana

Kyrra said:

I wasn't really a fan of the charm shop. Both the bracelets and the charms themselves were relatively expensive, and from memory, you couldn't repair them through jewellery.

The bracelet itself can be repaired, the charms, no (or not that I know of since my charms decayed) Now I wish I had replaced them when I had a chance

Vayne

Vayne said:

Lucky for them in addition to Ashtan's already sizable forces, they also have fairly recent experience being besieged by a dragon leading a army of invaders.

Whoa, imagine that, Yudihishthira attacked Ashtan.

Kolibri

Synbios said:

Thaumas said:

For new Shallam I want this or this.

I want it to be floating high in the sky as well, with teleporter elevators and crystal-tech(Tenwat had a broken teleportation device in it, used by old Church Inquisitors). 

Reason being that if someone blew up Neo-Shallam again, we can at least drop the city on whoever blew us up.

So you want Hallifax from Lusternia?

Synbios

Alyssea said:

Now it is angry.

Also, ermahgerd, this computer has Photoshop. Never actually used it before since I'm not willing to pay $100+ just to edit pictures.

Beautiful.

Kolibri said:

Synbios said:

Thaumas said:

For new Shallam I want this or this.

I want it to be floating high in the sky as well, with teleporter elevators and crystal-tech(Tenwat had a broken teleportation device in it, used by old Church Inquisitors). 

Reason being that if someone blew up Neo-Shallam again, we can at least drop the city on whoever blew us up.

So you want Hallifax from Lusternia?

This man knows too much. Send the time police.